PS3 misconceptions and spin

[Ironman273]

PS3 misconceptions and spin

I read various game forums from time to time, and often see gamers complaining about 'lazy ports' to the ps3. They often mention how the ps3 is the most powerful game console and blame developers working on the console for doing a bad job. Sony has all of these people duped by impressive marketing spin, and I'm often amazed at how potent this type of rhetoric proves to be. For those unaware, I'm going to break it down simply and explain exactly why ports to the ps3 will never be as good as their 360 counter parts, and why most ps3 exclusives will likely continue to suck. First, lets debunk a few common misconceptions:

"The PS3 is more graphically advanced than the 360"

Fill rate is one of the primary ways to measure graphics performance - in essence, it's a number describing how many pixel operations you can perform. The fill rate on the PS3 is significantly slower than on the 360, meaning that games either have to run at lower resolution or use simpler shader effects to achieve the same performance. Additionally, the shader processing on the ps3 is significantly slower than on the 360, which means that a normal map takes more fill rate to draw on the ps3 than it does on the 360. And I'm not talking about small differences here, we're talking roughly half the pixel pushing power.

"Ok, fine, but the cell is like, super powerful"

In theory, sure, but in reality it doesn't work out that way. Game code simply doesn't split well across multiple processors. You can probably find a way to split a few things off fairly easily - put the audio on one processor, animation on another; but generally the breakup is always going to leave several of the SPUs idle or underutilized. On top of that, it's usually not CPU speed that restricts the visuals in games - it's fill rate.

"Uh, Blue Ray!"

Great for watching movies, but not so great for games. Getting data off the blue ray drive takes about twice as long as it does to get the same data off the 360's DVD drive. That translates into longer load times, or god forbid if your streaming from disk, tighter constraints on the amount of data you can stream.

"But it's got a lot more space than DVD"

Ok, you got me there - it does have a lot more space, and there is the potential to use that to do something cool, but thats unlikely to be realized in any useful way. There are tons of compression techniques available for data and I'd personally rather be able to get my data faster than have more of it. Most developers who use the entire Blue Ray drive are doing it to work around other problems with the ps3 such as it's slow loading - for instance, in Resistance: Fall of Man, every art asset is stored on disk once for every level that uses it. So rather than storing one copy of a texture, you're storing it 12 times. If you took that entire game and removed all the duplicate data, it would likely fit on a DVD without any problem. They do this to speed up load times, which, as I pointed out before, are painfully slow on the ps3. So in this case, the extra space is completely wasted.

"Once developers figure out the PS3 they'll maximize the hardware and it will be amazing"

I suspect a small number of PS3 only developers will optimize the hardware to do something cool. However, this will be an exception to the rule, and will likely involved game designs that are specifically designed for the hardware and funded by Sony. If those will prove to be fun or not is another question.

Most of the performance centric research into the PS3 has been around making it easier for developers to get the same level of performance you get out of the 360 naturally. For instance, some developers are using those extra SPU's on the cell to prepare data for the rendering pipeline. Basically, they take the data they would normally send to the graphics chip, send it to an SPU which optimizes it in some manner, then send it to the graphics chip. So, once again we see an 'advantage' in hardware being used to make up for a disadvantage in another area - a common theme with the ps3. And this introduces an extra frame of latency into the equation, making controller response slower.

So, the common theme is this; developers must spend significantly more time and resources getting the PS3 to do what the 360 can already do easily and with a lot less code. Lets look at how this translates into practical realities for a moment:

Why the PS3 version often pails in comparison to the 360 version, and why exclusives often suck:

As outlined above, getting equivalent performance out of the PS3 requires a lot of work unique to the platform, and in many cases, even with all these tricks, you still won't see equivalent performance. Thus, many ps3 games have simplified shaders and run at lower native resolutions than the 360 versions. On top of this, there is shrinking incentive to do this work; the PS3 isn't selling.

The code needed to make the PS3 work is most likely only useful to you on the PS3, as the types of tricks you need to do to make the thing perform are very unique to the platform and unlikely to be useful on any other architecture now or in the future. These issues all stem from unbalanced hardware design, and any future hardware that is this unbalanced will likely be unbalanced in a completely unique way.

Finally, there's the problem of resources. Game Development is, at it's heart, a resource management challenge. Given finite resources, do I have these five engineers work on optimizing the PS3 version to look better, or do I use them to make the game play better and fix bugs? Do I change my design to fit with what the PS3 hardware does well, or simply run the game at a slightly lower resolution on the PS3 to make up for it? Developers striving to push the PS3 hardware have often sacrificed their game in the process.

This post might come across as a lot of Sony bashing, but it's just the reality from the trenches. Sony let their hardware be designed by a comity of business interests rather than a well thought out design that would serve the game development community. They are going to loose hard this round because of it, and I hope that in the next round they take lessons from this round and produce a more balanced and usable machine.

Source

This is the Jason Booth that has worked on Guitar Hero, Guitar Hero II and Rock Band for Harmonix.

[2xSilverKnight]

very unbiased info express there, simple facts you can't deny

[TheDreamX]

Damn! That's some sound information. This comes just as I starting thinking about get a PS3 with all the Top Gear / Gran Turismo talk!

[L3thal Veteran]

And in the end, people will still enjoy the PS3 just like they enjoy the 360.

[Ironman273]

And in the end, people will still enjoy the PS3 just like they enjoy the 360.

You really think most people enjoy paying more to get lower quality games? :huh:

[JaredFrost]

You really think most people enjoy paying more to get lower quality games? :huh:

Yes, they do, these are the same people that buy an iPod instead of something better and cheaper

from another company.

[L3thal Veteran]

You really think most people enjoy paying more to get lower quality games? :huh:

Apparently, they do. And honestly, what do you care? Unless you own stock with Microsoft, you shouldn't really care what people choose or choose not to purchase. Just enjoy your own system and let the others choose their's.

[Ultomato]

yeah im still deciding between 360 or ps3 but it doesnt make sense, sony has had time to make their machine more powerful but this says it is half as powerful as the 360? am i missing something here?

[FATILA]

A non paid off opinion at last, nice read.

[HawkMan]

yeah im still deciding between 360 or ps3 but it doesnt make sense, sony has had time to make their machine more powerful but this says it is half as powerful as the 360? am i missing something here?

The graphics unit is far less powerfull, maybe not half but...

The cell chip hwoever, is at it's best better than the power5 based chip in the 360, but, the Cell isn't very well designed to handle the kind of data crunching required by games, however, with a lot of celever coding parts of the cell can be used to make up for the slower GPU, but but this takes form the power of the cell of course, and because of all the datapushign back and forth, causes latency.

Basically, only subsidized "first" party titles will look optimally on the PS3, while ports will most likely lag behind the 360 in graphics.

That's the core of it. though it's more complicated than that.

[Ironman273]

Apparently, they do. And honestly, what do you care? Unless you own stock with Microsoft, you shouldn't really care what people choose or choose not to purchase. Just enjoy your own system and let the others choose their's.

Yes, those that bought it don't have any choice but to enjoy it. People like Ultomato are still on the fence though, and may make a decision based on lies and hype.

Here's the thing. Last generation I bought a Gamecube. It wasn't my only gaming machine, but I wanted it because there were some games that were Gamecube exclusive. I knew from the get go that it was the lower end of the 3 "last gen" systems but that's why it was also the cheapest.

This generation Sony put out a machine that so far has proved to be everything explained in this article but people are still considering it because of the marketing around it and the Playstation name. The reality is that if you want a cheap Blu-ray player, sure, why not. But if you want to play games and assume that it'll be this generation's PS2, that's wrong.

So this isn't for you, if you have a PS3 already, but for the uninformed out there that still are trying to make a decision and hear that the PS3 is "the most powerful" as a reason, which it obviously isn't.

[SnowRanger13]

I still prefer my PS3, watching bluray movies is great. I've been playing my PS3 a fair bit now and some great RPGs are coming out for it this year will make sure my PS3 gets lots of play time.

last generation I bought a Xbox at first because I thought it had the most features and was the most powerful but I ended up playing my PS2 way more. So this time around I got a PS3 first and later on I got a Xbox360 because I had trust in the playstation brand.

A lot of the problems that this article points out about the PS3 have solutions. Ok so bluray can store much more data so you can have longer games thats great, but yes the bluray drive in PS3 is slower then the DVD drive in 360. A fair number of games have a small install process that makes the games load much faster. Sure the PS3 GPU is slower the the 360s but people make it sound worse then it is... I've seem some pretty amazing graphics both on PS3 and on 360.

I'll admit PS3s hardware makes porting games suck and most multi-platform games i'd buy for my 360 (except Oblivion looks better on PS3 thats one I'd get for PS3, and I'm getting Guitar Hero 3 on PS3 because then I can play the other 3 Guitar Hero games that I already own for PS2).

Gran Turismo 5, Metal Gear Sold 4, Little Big Planet, Final Fantasy XIII, Final Fantasy VS XIII are more then enough reason for me to own a PS3.

Edited October 27, 2007 by cloudstrife13

[HawkMan]

I still prefer my PS3, watching bluray movies is great. I've been playing my PS3 a fair bit now and some great RPGs are coming out for it this year will make sure my PS3 gets lots of play time.

of course that was pretty much completely off topic on the issue at hand.

this topic wasn't about playing Blu Ray movies or what great RPG's are coming out (great RPG's are coming to both systems though)

The topic here was the the PS3 just isn't designed to be able to deliver on the same level as the 360, a machien that's a year older.

The interesting thing is how you worded it "I've been playing my PS3 a fair bit now ", That's not the word most any of the 360 people I know or have seen talk about the machine online would use. most 360 are being used quite heavily, far more than "a fair bit"

On top of this the playstation brand allready has a history in the industry forhavign absolutely horrible dev kits and being a mess to code for, now add a diffficult to use processor and memory architecture on top of this, and you will see why even if the PS3 was mroe pwoerfull than the 360, Dev's are choosing to develop on the 360 instead.

Sony has promised better dev tools over and over again and never been able to deliver, and this is down to the fundamental libraries and code at the core of the machine

[Morpheus Phreak]

Yes, those that bought it don't have any choice but to enjoy it. People like Ultomato are still on the fence though, and may make a decision based on lies and hype.

Here's the thing. Last generation I bought a Gamecube. It wasn't my only gaming machine, but I wanted it because there were some games that were Gamecube exclusive. I knew from the get go that it was the lower end of the 3 "last gen" systems but that's why it was also the cheapest.

This generation Sony put out a machine that so far has proved to be everything explained in this article but people are still considering it because of the marketing around it and the Playstation name. The reality is that if you want a cheap Blu-ray player, sure, why not. But if you want to play games and assume that it'll be this generation's PS2, that's wrong.

So this isn't for you, if you have a PS3 already, but for the uninformed out there that still are trying to make a decision and hear that the PS3 is "the most powerful" as a reason, which it obviously isn't.

Agreed, the only reason why a 360 can be a bad bet is the failure rate.

That being said I own a wii and a 360. I don't have a PS3 as of yet.

I do however want one since I want the complete collection.

I'm only wanting the 80GB Motorstorm model though. Anything else is a waste and I want the backwards compatability to work.

The trick is buying one when you have no money and only spare software to trade :(

[neoadorable]

ironman even tho all of this is true and it's always healthy to face the music and facts, i must still say you're being a bit cruel. to people who love the PS3, the brand and feel of it etc, none of this matters. it's like to us it doesn't matter whatever's wrong with the 360, we'll always enjoy it.

and while it is also refreshing to see the propoganda countered, it's probably better to leave this crap alone and move forward to even more gaming goodness.

[L3thal Veteran]

Well, at least we know the PS3 will last you for years without that dreadful red ring of death.

[Venomous]

I couldn't care less about other peoples opinions Both consoles including a Pc is the way to GO!

[HawkMan]

Well, at least we know the PS3 will last you for years without that dreadful red ring of death.

Do you ? wow that's awesome, you can see into the future and see how the next 3 years of the PS3 looks like :)

and yeah... i'll totally ruin my life "if" I have to send in my console for 1-2 weeks for repairs down the line ;p yeah it'd suck a little but I'll survive it.

[Meshuggah86]

Well, at least we know the PS3 will last you for years without that dreadful red ring of death.

I wasn't going to comment on any of your posts until I saw this. We get it....your a PS3 fan. Bravo!

But face it, in the past two years I've spent so many hours on my 360. I own TWO arcade games for the Playstation 3...that is all!

If you had a xbox360 you would play the hell out of it, just like my good buddy Cloudstrife has been. While I agree that the PS3 is always going to have better japanese/RPG support, it boggles my mind when a Playstation fan can't retort anything other than what you just said.

If my PS3 died, I wouldn't even care, but my 360...Holy hell....It literally is hell. Let me give you a great example of how people like the 360.

My girlfriend's entire family are playstation people. You try to get them to play a xbox and you might as well forget it. I even have to tell them A=X and B=O and X=Square and Y=Triangle, however today (I just got back from visiting them) changed everything. I brought my 360 to her house and connected it to live and showed the family how many arcade games there are (95 currently, since I'm sure you are oblivious) and they were simply blown away. Sure the playstation 3 has a few arcade games, but nothing like this. Then I showed them how many retail demos were on live and how you could download. Now these people don't keep up with technology but they were really blown away. We played a ton of the arcade games I already own, and I also bought 2 games I didn't own because they enjoyed them so much.

You can't do this on the PS3....you really can't. Then I showed them the Chatpad and they thought it was insane how everything just "fit" together so neatly. The reason why the 360 is simply better than the PS3 is the seamless experience. Sure, you pay 40 dollars a year for it, but that's what makes it a hundred times better than the PSN. The entire family was amazed at my buddy list and how many people message me/sign on constantly and how I would chat with them during a game. They have never experienced a console like this and it truly amazed them.

So this brings me back to my original point which is how I cannot stand how PS fans in general really have absolutely nothing to argue about other than the RROD. The 360 has almost a hundred arcade games and soon will have almost 200 retail DVD games.

You have Blu-Ray.

https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=594150

Apparently the PS3 suffers from problems too.

Go rent a 360. See the light, but don't let your blatant ignorance/alliance kick you before you get there. If you had a 360, you would argue too...and damn...It's so nice to hear a developer/ex-developer have some ****ing balls and tell it like it is. Sony designed this console for their selves, where Microsoft learned from their original mistakes and built their xbox 360 for the consumer/developer. It's a simple fact, and it's killing Sony right now.

Soon, yes, your PS3 will have 5-6 games to play....while the 360....it will have so many games, my wallet won't even know it's bouncing.

Game.Set.Match.

[Sheppard]

Source

This is the Jason Booth that has worked on Guitar Hero, Guitar Hero II and Rock Band for Harmonix.

Haha "facts".

This guy is an EX Harmonix developer that started up his own company to do interactive social networking software which just so happens Sony is doing in the form of Home, he doesnt have a hope in hells chance of being able to match the quality of it so he is bitter towards Sony.

[Sheppard]

I wasn't going to comment on any of your posts until I saw this. We get it....your a PS3 fan. Bravo!

But face it, in the past two years I've spent so many hours on my 360. I own TWO arcade games for the Playstation 3...that is all!

Most people dont buy a console to play crappy little minigame games.

If you had a xbox360 you would play the hell out of it, just like my good buddy Cloudstrife has been. While I agree that the PS3 is always going to have better japanese/RPG support, it boggles my mind when a Playstation fan can't retort anything other than what you just said.

Prove it, just because YOU would play the hell out of it doesnt mean other people will, all the 360 has are driving games and shooting games.

If my PS3 died, I wouldn't even care, but my 360...Holy hell....It literally is hell. Let me give you a great example of how people like the 360.

My girlfriend's entire family are playstation people. You try to get them to play a xbox and you might as well forget it. I even have to tell them A=X and B=O and X=Square and Y=Triangle, however today (I just got back from visiting them) changed everything. I brought my 360 to her house and connected it to live and showed the family how many arcade games there are (95 currently, since I'm sure you are oblivious) and they were simply blown away. Sure the playstation 3 has a few arcade games, but nothing like this. Then I showed them how many retail demos were on live and how you could download. Now these people don't keep up with technology but they were really blown away. We played a ton of the arcade games I already own, and I also bought 2 games I didn't own because they enjoyed them so much.

Whats the point of arcade games, i didnt buy my ?350 console to play stupid little minigames.

You can't do this on the PS3....you really can't. Then I showed them the Chatpad and they thought it was insane how everything just "fit" together so neatly. The reason why the 360 is simply better than the PS3 is the seamless experience. Sure, you pay 40 dollars a year for it, but that's what makes it a hundred times better than the PSN. The entire family was amazed at my buddy list and how many people message me/sign on constantly and how I would chat with them during a game. They have never experienced a console like this and it truly amazed them.

WOW chatpad, i must go and buy one RIGHT AWAY!!!!!!!!!! I buy games to play them, not so i can sit and chat to my friends, i use the phone for that.

So this brings me back to my original point which is how I cannot stand how PS fans in general really have absolutely nothing to argue about other than the RROD. The 360 has almost a hundred arcade games and soon will have almost 200 retail DVD games.

Whats with the arcade game fetish, we get it you like crappy little minigames. Of course the 360 will have more games its had a years headstart, sick of 360 fans saying "but the 360 has more" OF COURSE IT HAS.

You have Blu-Ray.

https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=594150

Apparently the PS3 suffers from problems too.

Key word. "Apparently". Every peice of hardware has a failure rate especially something so complex but there are VERY few cases of PS3s failing, how many RROD problems have there been, how many people are on their 4th and 5th console.

Go rent a 360. See the light, but don't let your blatant ignorance/alliance kick you before you get there. If you had a 360, you would argue too...and damn...It's so nice to hear a developer/ex-developer have some ****ing balls and tell it like it is. Sony designed this console for their selves, where Microsoft learned from their original mistakes and built their xbox 360 for the consumer/developer. It's a simple fact, and it's killing Sony right now.

You sound like a religious preacher, we get it you think the 360 is the dogs bollocks and the PS3 is crap, stop trying to belittle everyone who doesnt automatically jizz over the 360.

Soon, yes, your PS3 will have 5-6 games to play....while the 360....it will have so many games, my wallet won't even know it's bouncing.

Yes, 5-6 games, mature. Enjoy your endless FPS and Driving games.

Game.Set.Match.

You have far from won anything.

[kak]

This is one guy's opinion who makes probably the least graphic-oriented games. Congrats, you made some music-based video games. Until you're working on any big budget, ground-breaking titles, I don't care what you have to say. GH3 and Rock Band are NOT going to stress either system.. but this guy is going to have unlimited knowledge about coding for the system? I doubt.

[sundayx Veteran]

I hesitate to argue. Waste of effort.

[houlty]

i have both systems, but never had the same game on both so cant make direct comparisons in that sense. if tomorrow, however, someone made me get rid of a console it would be the 360. sure enough the tech specs may be higher, but the visual quality of games on my ps3 is more than enough.

the sole reason why i would get rid of the 360 is that in my room (which is an fair size room), it drowns out all other noise unless the volume is super high. thus, i can forget playing it at night when other people are trying to sleep in the next room.

i'm not trying to side up on the fanboys of sony, but its only fair that the MAJOR faults of the 360 are also pointed out, and i havent even mentioned failure rates.

[Sanjay]

Quite simply, the PS3 is a great piec of hardware and worth every penny I paid for it.