HD-DVD: What effect will crazy deals have on format war?

[giantpotato]

thats a matter of opinion. there's plenty of low quality movies on both sides of the game.

I agree, but the point I was trying to make is it is virtually impossible for HD DVD to fit movies much longer than 3 hours at quality bitrate levels.

[2xSilverKnight]

Except I've talked to people who think a HD DVD player is simply a player which plays normal DVD's in High Definition.

well that's the kind of misinformation i'm talking about.

the guy who sell something needs to know and inform him about 1080p

DVD is 480 p , this is no high-def, even with hdmi. It's called up-scaling.

who ever sold something to someone linking dvd and hdmi needs to know that it's still 480p source format.

[greekdaemon]

Ok I just want to add no one has mentioned the obvious that this all goes back to VHS and Beta. Everyone does know that Sony was backing Beta right, and VHS won. Why I can tell you not be cause it was the superior product but because of cost, and also it didnt hurt the the adult movie industry backed them. As they are doing again with HD-DVD so come on people realize price is important to the cosumer as well as the those putting there movies on the discs.

Also the only reason we get flame wars and fanboys is those PS3 owners who can't stand the thought that PS3 is not doing well and they can't justify spending what they did on the console without it being a blue-ray player and for that to matter blue-ray must win for them.

[sundayx Veteran]

1. The naming contridiction is ambiguous. No matter what these 2 format is named, people will understand it as what it could do. The simple answer is High Definition Media per se.

2. HD-DVD won't be at this price level if it was not for competition. Nor would advertising and funding be at such a level if it was not for competition. Whether which format is doing in terms of awareness strategies, it is getting people to be more aware of their products to become competitive.

3. If people could dish out thousands of dollars for a HD system, they would not hesitate to dish out an additional amount to complete the system by any HD media source. The player is an integral part of the HD experience. Consoles and standalone media players are what users demand, not a symbol of winners or losers.

4. Whether either format can do in terms of capacity and codecs, these are just basis of arguments for fanboys and technical users that argue only by numbers. The HD experience itself would not differ in terms of immersive experience with either media.

5. Sony is not BR, and Microsoft is not HD-DVD. Some people are still getting misinformed and it is agonizing to misunderstand this specific point.

6. The cost of production will not have affect on adaptation. Whether the BR camp is costing more to product per unit, or HD-DVD is getting more profits per unit, the camps will continue their marketing of their products and continue to pursue market share. Studios adjust accordingly to market share and sales performance, above cost of production.

7. Neither camp will lose or win. The winners are the users. Eventually companies will realize this continuing and stalemate state of competition and adapt to both formats.

Just my 2 grand.

[2xSilverKnight]

I agree, but the point I was trying to make is it is virtually impossible for HD DVD to fit movies much longer than 3 hours at quality bitrate levels.

well that's not true due to the fact that triple layers hd-dvd exist already and confirmed compatible with any reader. but no body used it yet, because they didn't need it.

which like it was said, Blu-Ray isn't near to get more than two layer, and even if it was, most people wouldn't be able to play it.

[joyntkid]

It's HD DVD not HD-DVD :)

Get it right.

[giantpotato]

1. The naming contridiction is ambiguous. No matter what these 2 format is named, people will understand it as what it could do. The simple answer is High Definition Media per se.

2. HD-DVD won't be at this price level if it was not for competition. Nor would advertising and funding be at such a level if it was not for competition. Whether which format is doing in terms of awareness strategies, it is getting people to be more aware of their products to become competitive.

3. If people could dish out thousands of dollars for a HD system, they would not hesitate to dish out an additional amount to complete the system by any HD media source. The player is an integral part of the HD experience. Consoles and standalone media players are what users demand, not a symbol of winners or losers.

4. Whether either format can do in terms of capacity and codecs, these are just basis of arguments for fanboys and technical users that argue only by numbers. The HD experience itself would not differ in terms of immersive experience with either media.

5. Sony is not BR, and Microsoft is not HD-DVD. Some people are still getting misinformed and it is agonizing to misunderstand this specific point.

6. The cost of production will not have affect on adaptation. Whether the BR camp is costing more to product per unit, or HD-DVD is getting more profits per unit, the camps will continue their marketing of their products and continue to pursue market share. Studios adjust accordingly to market share and sales performance, above cost of production.

7. Neither camp will lose or win. The winners are the users. Eventually companies will realize this continuing and stalemate state of competition and adapt to both formats.

Just my 2 grand.

That is without a doubt one of the best posts on this subject.

[2xSilverKnight]

That is without a doubt one of the best posts on this subject.

there ya go, both right ;)

that was the kind of misinformation I was trying to talk about :rofl:

[giantpotato]

well that's not true due to the fact that triple layers hd-dvd exist already and confirmed compatible with any reader. but no body used it yet, because they didn't need it.

which like it was said, Blu-Ray isn't near to get more than two layer, and even if it was, most people wouldn't be able to play it.

You make a post about spreading misinformation and you go ahead and spread it yourself.

Hitachi has created a 100GB blu-ray which is compatible with existing players via firmware update just like Toshiba's 51GB disc.

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/34221/118/

As far as I'm concerned, neither of these discs can be considered "available" even though prototypes exist.

[2xSilverKnight]

You make a post about spreading misinformation and you go ahead and spread it yourself.

Hitachi has created a 100GB blu-ray which is compatible with existing players via firmware update just like Toshiba's 51GB disc.

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/34221/118/

As far as I'm concerned, neither of these discs can be considered "available" even though prototypes exist.

didn't saw that one piece of info then, but I was more referring about the fact that it wasn't natively implemented without having to update anything.

anyway we understand each other now.

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

I never said that. IF only one format is to survive, I would rather it be the one that can provide better quality on ALL movies. Why settle for a format which is not as good as another.

I thought you were talking about the size.

Also, what's wrong with HD DVD's quality and how does it differ from Blu-ray?

I know the answer to that question and I just wanna see what you have to say about it since you mentioned "better quality".

[PeterTHX]

well that's not true due to the fact that triple layers hd-dvd exist already and confirmed compatible with any reader.

Neither of these statements are correct. : 51GB spec not final

Irony being this article is from most of the HD DVD "news" for Neowin.

I thought you were talking about the size.

Also, what's wrong with HD DVD's quality and how does it differ from Blu-ray?

I know the answer to that question and I just wanna see what you have to say about it since you mentioned "better quality".

Again, higher bandwidth (54>36Mbps): more storage.

Lossless audio the NORM, not the exception.

More manufacturer support for better variety of hardware.

[Jason S. Global Moderator]

TL and QL discs shouldnt even be brought up in this topic. as far as im concerned, theyre theoretical. there's no release date, no further info, nothing. no company is saying "we're putting this movie on a TL disc in 2 months." it should be taken as speculation right now, not as part of an argument.

[giantpotato]

I thought you were talking about the size.

Also, what's wrong with HD DVD's quality and how does it differ from Blu-ray?

I know the answer to that question and I just wanna see what you have to say about it since you mentioned "better quality".

There's nothing wrong with HD DVD quality since both formats support exactly the same video and audio codecs therefore the quality is equal for *most* movies. The problem comes with movies longer than 3 hours or so. HD DVD simply does not have the space to have a high enough bitrate for certain movies. Refer to this post I made in another topic concerning fitting LOTR Return of the King EE on a HD DVD:

https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?show...#entry588975246

I did everything possible to give as much bitrate as possible to the video and at most the bitrate is 14Mbps. Keep in mind this is a totally unrealistic situation, and the bitrate will actually have to be less than that on the actual disc if they plan to include menus, and director's commentary. This low bitrate is not nearly enough for top-quality video. In this case, and for any long movies HD DVD is simply does not have enough capacity to provide good quality.

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

There's nothing wrong with HD DVD quality since both formats support exactly the same video and audio codecs therefore the quality is equal for *most* movies. The problem comes with movies longer than 3 hours or so. HD DVD simply does not have the space to have a high enough bitrate for certain movies. Refer to this post I made in another topic concerning fitting LOTR Return of the King EE on a HD DVD:

https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?show...#entry588975246

I did everything possible to give as much bitrate as possible to the video and at most the bitrate is 14Mbps. Keep in mind this is a totally unrealistic situation, and the bitrate will actually have to be less than that on the actual disc if they plan to include menus, and director's commentary. This low bitrate is not nearly enough for top-quality video. In this case, and for any long movies HD DVD is simply does not have enough capacity to provide good quality.

You said it in this thread and I already replied to it (post #40 on page 3 here) by saying that the number of movies that may not fit on HD DVD is extremely small. It shouldn't even be a concern.

[whocares78]

You said it in this thread and I already replied to it (post #40 on page 3 here) by saying that the number of movies that may not fit on HD DVD is extremely small. It shouldn't even be a concern.

especially when the disks are only goignt oget bigger.

Multi format players will win in the end, all this price cutting does is gain initial market share by loosing money for the manufacturer, so consumers win for now.

[giantpotato]

You said it in this thread and I already replied to it (post #40 on page 3 here) by saying that the number of movies that may not fit on HD DVD is extremely small. It shouldn't even be a concern.

Who's to say if it should be a concern or not? To me it is a concern, and I'm sure it's a concern to all those die-hard Lord of the Rings fans, and fans of any other movies that may not fit in good quality on HD DVD.

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

Who's to say if it should be a concern or not? To me it is a concern, and I'm sure it's a concern to all those die-hard Lord of the Rings fans, and fans of any other movies that may not fit in good quality on HD DVD.

It's the industry's and the manufacturers' concern and they are the ones who dictate the rules without taking into consideration what die-hard-fans may think.

They have a technology (HD DVD) which allowed them simple and cost-effective transition from DVD. Do you think they would care that a few movie titles (less than 10 really) woudn't fit on that? I don't think so and they surely didn't think so.

Besides, the solution is pretty simple too: cut the movie in half (preserve the quality), end of story.

It has already been mentioned that the size will only get bigger so I really don't know why you are making such a big deal out of this.

[MrKuro]

7. Neither camp will lose or win. The winners are the users. Eventually companies will realize this continuing and stalemate state of competition and adapt to both formats.

excellent post, dead on. I especially like this point.

I've been saying this for a while... both will survive and we will all either have two players or mulitformat devices. I have already both a few players from each camp (and have an bluray burner on order)

. . just accept that both will be around, and you will be a happy user enjoying everything in glorious HD

[giantpotato]

It's the industry's and the manufacturers' concern and they are the ones who dictate the rules without taking into consideration what die-hard-fans may think.

They have a technology (HD DVD) which allowed them simple and cost-effective transition from DVD. Do you think they would care that a few movie titles (less than 10 really) woudn't fit on that? I don't think so and they surely didn't think so.

Besides, the solution is pretty simple too: cut the movie in half (preserve the quality), end of story.

It has already been mentioned that the size will only get bigger so I really don't know why you are making such a big deal out of this.

Sure you can cut a movie in half, but that's hardly an elegant solution. If there's a format which allows me to watch a movie straight through, I wouldn't support the one which forces me to get up half way through and switch discs.

If it's not in the original specs, there's no guarantee it's going to happen. Until I can purchase a 51GB HD DVD, it's just vaporware, just like the 100GB Blu-Ray and Duke Nukem Forever.

Besides, space is not the only problem, it's also bitrate. This is something that can NEVER be changed for HD DVD. Sure, the bandwidth is high enough to produce quality video right now, but what happens when the studios want to add multiple audio tracks, higher quality lossless audio, subtitles, and a secondary video stream for picture-in-picture? HD DVD simply does not have the bandwidth to support all of these things at once, where Blu-Ray does. I don't want to get stuck with a second-class format.

I'm simply trying to point out that Blu-Ray is indesputably a better FORMAT. There are things in the Blu-Ray specs which simply cannot be done on HD DVD, whereas for everything on HD DVD, there's a Blu-Ray equivalent.

[majortom1981]

Sure you can cut a movie in half, but that's hardly an elegant solution. If there's a format which allows me to watch a movie straight through, I wouldn't support the one which forces me to get up half way through and switch discs.

If it's not in the original specs, there's no guarantee it's going to happen. Until I can purchase a 51GB HD DVD, it's just vaporware, just like the 100GB Blu-Ray and Duke Nukem Forever.

Besides, space is not the only problem, it's also bitrate. This is something that can NEVER be changed for HD DVD. Sure, the bandwidth is high enough to produce quality video right now, but what happens when the studios want to add multiple audio tracks, higher quality lossless audio, subtitles, and a secondary video stream for picture-in-picture? HD DVD simply does not have the bandwidth to support all of these things at once, where Blu-Ray does. I don't want to get stuck with a second-class format.

I'm simply trying to point out that Blu-Ray is indesputably a better FORMAT. There are things in the Blu-Ray specs which simply cannot be done on HD DVD, whereas for everything on HD DVD, there's a Blu-Ray equivalent.

The problem with what you are stating is that not all blueray players support everything you just said. ON hd-dvds all players support the 3rd layer.

I would not want to be the person who has a 1st gen blueray player and gets a new movie only to find out he cant play it on his $1000 player because its a first gen version.

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

Sure you can cut a movie in half, but that's hardly an elegant solution. If there's a format which allows me to watch a movie straight through, I wouldn't support the one which forces me to get up half way through and switch discs.

If it's not in the original specs, there's no guarantee it's going to happen. Until I can purchase a 51GB HD DVD, it's just vaporware, just like the 100GB Blu-Ray and Duke Nukem Forever.

Besides, space is not the only problem, it's also bitrate. This is something that can NEVER be changed for HD DVD. Sure, the bandwidth is high enough to produce quality video right now, but what happens when the studios want to add multiple audio tracks, higher quality lossless audio, subtitles, and a secondary video stream for picture-in-picture? HD DVD simply does not have the bandwidth to support all of these things at once, where Blu-Ray does. I don't want to get stuck with a second-class format.

I'm simply trying to point out that Blu-Ray is indesputably a better FORMAT. There are things in the Blu-Ray specs which simply cannot be done on HD DVD, whereas for everything on HD DVD, there's a Blu-Ray equivalent.

Dude, you have been seriously misinformed about bitrate and quality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of...al_disc_formats

Talking to you is like talking to a wall really.

[giantpotato]

The problem with what you are stating is that not all blueray players support everything you just said. ON hd-dvds all players support the 3rd layer.

I would not want to be the person who has a 1st gen blueray player and gets a new movie only to find out he cant play it on his $1000 player because its a first gen version.

THEORETICALLY, all HD DVD players support 51GB with a firmware update. THEORETICALLY, all Blu-Ray players support the 100GB disc with a firware update. Fact: Neither of these formats were in the original specs, therefore IMO it is highly unlikely movies will ever be released on those formats. Can we please put this to rest. YES, I UNDERSTAND HD DVD HAS A PROTOTYPE 51GB DISC WHICH IS SUPPOSED WORKS IN ALL PLAYERS WITH A FIRMWARE UPDATE.

That is FUD. All Blu-Ray movies will work in all players. It's just the special features which will not be accessible. And honestly, if you're the kind of person who can spend $1000 on a first gen player, you won't have a problem spending a few hundred on another player which supports all the bells and whistles. Besides how many people actually bought a $1000 Blu-Ray player? Far more people bought the cheaper PS3, which most likely will support the special features.

[Boz]

The problem with what you are stating is that not all blueray players support everything you just said. ON hd-dvds all players support the 3rd layer.

I would not want to be the person who has a 1st gen blueray player and gets a new movie only to find out he cant play it on his $1000 player because its a first gen version.

Bingo!

All this talk is completely irrelevant. $99 - same picture and audio quality (especially considering that 90% of consumers listens to these movies on their $400 5.1 system or even worse TV speakers), all finished specs, every disc released today works with 1st gen players too.

The my dick is longer then yours with size and bitrate that BDA is trying to scream has shown absolutely no real visible advantages.

All these Blu-Ray fanboys who keep citing BDA skewed information and pretty much crap with spinning will realize what all HD DVD supporting people are saying here.

Blu-Ray is a DUD. It's an overhyped, unfinished piece of crap, that produces grainy movies, with over 50% of movies in MPEG2 and PCM audio because they can't get all players to decode audio on the same levels due to incompletness of the format and the freedom given to CE companies to save a buck by including/excluding certain things.

I say, beginning of 2008 it will become very clear that Blu-Ray will be just like UMD. Done. For the existence of PS3 console it will use Blu-Rays for games, HD DVD will become, efficient and cheap next-gen DVD as it really is (comes from DVD forum)

with incredible picture and sound quality for the masses at <$100 regular price and we might witness mass-suicides by Blu-Ray fanatics.

It's so beautiful to see Blu-Ray crowd in panic. 100k HD DVD players sold in 3 days? Hahahaha.. oh yeah, they are just dumping inventory HAHHAHAHH... Judging by analysits we will see around 1 million HD DVD standalone players before the end of 2007. This will COMPLETELY kill the PS3 advantage considering that PS3 is selling, again as expected, like crap.

It's gonna be a wonderful holiday season and even more beautiful 2008. Seeing Blu-Ray fans squeek in denial is just a bonus.

[giantpotato]

Dude, you have been seriously misinformed about bitrate and quality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of...al_disc_formats

Talking to you is like talking to a wall really.

Yes, I've read that page before. Could you please point me to the exact paragraph you want me to read? I can't read you r mind.