Opera Software files EU antitrust complaint against Microsoft

[Buu]

If every site was written for one browser. Where would the choice lie, IE shells?

I don't understand this comment. Every web page should be written to a specific model, which in turn should render correctly in every browser that supports that model. Web design is not about coding for an individual browser! It is about presenting specific data in a specific way. It is not like a web designer is coding for a specific Operating System.

[revvo]

You are stuck on the legacy frameworks when Microsoft did not have to consider other browsers but would you agree that MS has made more of an effort to support other browsers in ASP.NET 2.0 and 3.0? I know it doesn't help you now.

I fully agree. It's management at work who are ###### and who won't "waste time" moving onto the latest frameworks and Visual Studio version :rofl:

IE7 added more support for web standards and they have shown that they will continue to move in that direction. Now if IE8 comes out and there is not much more in web standards then I will be highly upset just as everyone else, but I am going to wait until I see the new version before passing judgement on them.

IE7? While the support is better than IE6, Microsoft had no excuse here to support web standards as much as FF/Opera/Safari. They sat on their asses until a worthy competitor appeared and then they decided to make IE7.

nobody gives a **** about standards

Most people don't, because most people do not understand them or the point behind them, that makes your comment more insightful than it looks :p

[evo_spook]

nobody gives a **** about standards

Please don't speak for everyone. Especially where you seem to be speaking from a position of ignorance. Thank You.

[shoust]

I don't understand this comment. Every web page should be written to a specific model, which in turn should render correctly in every browser that supports that model. Web design is not about coding for an individual browser! It is about presenting specific data in a specific way. It is not like a web designer is coding for a specific Operating System.

I was implying that the web should look the same in all browsers. But the current situation is that it is difficult for non-IE developers to commit to MicroSoft's undocumented "de-facto" standards than recommended standards.

I was outlining the difficulty of the situation and wish for the case that "de-facto" standards won't persist.

In laymans terms, I wish for a web to be the same in every browser that supports it, rather than the same browser for the web.

[libertas83]

IE7? While the support is better than IE6, Microsoft had no excuse here to support web standards as much as FF/Opera/Safari. They sat on their asses until a worthy competitor appeared and then they decided to make IE7.

They didn't entirely sit on their butts and do nothing. The IE team was moved to the WPF team and helped create XAML, WPF, WCF, and are now working on the subset of WPF/E which is Silverlight. The problem is, and Microsoft admited this mistake, it took too long for them to develop WPF before bringing to to market. This caused IE to fall behind as the market place moved on.

When the team was moved back to IE, they didn't have much time to fully support CSS2 so they went after some of the worst bugs that existed and also had to focus alot more on security. Now with IE8, they have had enough time to really work on their issues so this time, we all will have a much higher expectation.

[shoust]

They didn't entirely sit on their butts and do nothing. The IE team was moved to the WPF team and helped create XAML, WPF, WCF, and are now working on the subset of WPF/E which is Silverlight. The problem is, and Microsoft admited this mistake, it took too long for them to develop WPF before bringing to to market. This caused IE to fall behind as the market place moved on.

When the team was moved back to IE, they didn't have much time to fully support CSS2 so they went after some of the worst bugs that existed and also had to focus alot more on security. Now with IE8, they have had enough time to really work on their issues so this time, we all will have a much higher expectation.

That implies that MicroSoft never had a dedicated browser development team in the first place. Who says IE8 final won't come until the next operating system? It could be up to 2011-12 until we see the next IE.

[megamanXplosion]

Disagreements with ECMA 4 doesn't mean MS will not support it. They will have their own solution and support ECMA at the same time.

"Their own solution" is the notion that lies at the root of this problematic weed. Web browser users want consistency. Web designers and developers want a consistent work environment where they can deliver consistent results to their users. Design environment programmers already have consistent standards in the programming department but it's difficult to export the web design and development to a format that would work consistently across browsers, and hence web designers and developers have a very inconsistent work environment. "Own solutions" involving an extension of an existing standard tend to be massive inconsistencies that make web delivery more difficult.

"Own solutions" are fine then those solutions encompass new standards, but "own solutions" involving existing standards are a pain in the rear.

Why?

If you like firefox, then you just download it, install it, and use it?

Same goes for opera, safari and so on.

Let the companies argue, and just use whatever pleases you the most?

Unless you're a professional website artist, i don't see how this is somthing to write a novell about

Anyone interesting in the progression of the World Wide Web should care about standards compliance and demand it of browser makers.

These "anti-trust/monopoly/ruleroftheearth"- fights has been going on for years, and the target is always the same, microsoft.

Afcourse they could be a little more open to web standards, but for a big company like microsoft,

this means time, and time is money.

When a thing like this goes to court, in the end, theres only one big looser, and that is the part that sued microsoft.

Court time costs money, and for a small company (in world scale) like opera software asa, that will in the end mean layoffs and/or cutdowns in budgets.

I'm not saying they WILL lose, only that there is a big possibility, and that would be very uncool.

They're not going to court.

(I made that mistake earlier as well. Oops.)

People seem to be forgetting, this is NOT a lawsuit, but an anti-trust complaint. Opera is getting no money out of what they are suggesting microsoft to do.

Correct. I was mistaken earlier. I was so focused on the standards compliancy issue that I unwittingly swallowed the whole "lawsuit" bit while putting forward my argument. I should've been more careful.

It costs money to work out undocumented behaviours.

It costs money to write a standard, but if people stick to it, it saves money overall, seeing as it'll save the time working everything out.

However, microsoft's "de-facto" standards lack in documentation or support for web browser developers. This costs money to support.

Exactly. Anyone who has spent 12 hours scratching their head trying to figure out the interoperability problem on their upcoming website or website design, and was contemplating suicide at the time (exaggeration for humor), will know how much money is lost by having to deal with these issues, and how much easier life would be if rendering engines followed the W3C standards.

nobody gives a **** about standards

You have to love the Almighty We.

That implies that MicroSoft never had a dedicated browser development team in the first place.

No it doesn't. There was a dedicated Internet Explorer team up until Internet Explorer 6 (SP2) but once XP-SP2 was released the team was moved to another project on a temporary basis.

[d_ralphie]

Last I checked, not following standards isn't against the law.

you are right. but anti-competitive practices are against the law. in this case, microsoft's anti-competitive practices involve ignoring standards.

but now i'm just losing all respect, they should not promote their browser this way

this is not a pr campaign, but an actual antitrust complaint.

These "anti-trust/monopoly/ruleroftheearth"- fights has been going on for years, and the target is always the same, microsoft.

well gee, do you think that could have something to do with the fact that microsoft has been engaging in anti-competitive practices for all these years?

When a thing like this goes to court, in the end, theres only one big looser, and that is the part that sued microsoft.

opera didn't sue microsoft. this is not a lawsuit. it is an eu complaint.

No they are complaining because nobody cares about their browser.

no, they are complaining because microsoft has actively prevented competition in the market.

None of their complaints seem to have affected Firefox.

is this supposed to be a joke?

msie still has more than 80% of the market, even after ten years and billions of dollars spent on getting mozilla/firefox to where it is today, and STILL many sites require msie. none of their complaints seem to have affected firefox? BULLCRAP.

Last I checked, broken websites never "broke" any browser.

if a site doesn't work in your browser but requires msie, what does that mean?

standards are not basis of innovation.

nonsense. where would the internet be without the tcp/ip standard? that's right, NOWHERE. think before you post.

Innovation, IMO, is breaking standards

bullcrap again.

And other browsers don't care how IE works. They never have to. They can continue doing things the standard way.

again, are you joking?

other browsers MUST care how ie works. they MUST spend lots of money on being compatible with ie, because if they don't, even more sites will stop working.

[Eric Veteran]

this wouldn't happen overnight. it would, however, prevent microsoft from continuing to break the standards of the future in particular, like ecmascript 4 which microsoft would rather replace with silverlight/c#.

C# is an ECMA standard.

[dysmatik]

:wacko:

[darkz]

anybody is really going to remove opera from their computer only because they don't like this particular action? weird eh. how come you use windows then?

[d_ralphie]

@darkz: people easily forget. or are ignorant.

C# is an ECMA standard.

just like silverlight? :D

[shoust]

C# is an ECMA standard.

Is it a web standard though? I searched through the entire PDF and it says nothing about web browsers needing to support it..

[Antaris Veteran]

C# is nothing to do with web standards. Silverlight is nothing to do with web standards. Silverlight is a cross-browser media platform, and does not depend on the browser supporting particular standards. C# can be used with Silverlight as a programming tool. How have you all got confused by this?

@d_ralphie: Every post you seemed to have made over the last few days regarding the Opera story (inluding comments made on News postings) seems to argumentatively force your own opinions on what is right and wrong. The point of Neowin is to allow open discussions on stories, so please bare that in mind when replying to member posts.

[d_ralphie]

actually, what i am doing is to correct factual errors and misconceptions

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

Silverlight, Flash and such are only plugins, the browser calls them and they render themselves.

Everybody cares about standards, they just don't know it, it only comes to the surface when sites don't work (e.g. why is this sidebar drawing over text?, oh, because this browser calculates widths differently to every other browser).

Now, IE is coming along with standards support (IE8 passes Acid2), but it's small things that are done for no other reason than to be incompatible with other browsers which is what annoys other people (and leads to stuff like this happening)

[BajiRav]

nonsense. where would the internet be without the tcp/ip standard? that's right, NOWHERE. think before you post.

bullcrap again.

again, are you joking?

other browsers MUST care how ie works. they MUST spend lots of money on being compatible with ie, because if they don't, even more sites will stop working.

If you go a bit low on personal attacks, I would like to continue on this debate. :rolleyes:

I mean it. You can not innovate following standards. You conveniently ignored parts of my post where I provided an example. Did you know that XMLHTTPRequest was not a standard when Microsoft introduced it? Do you know that it is still not a standard?

I am quoting wikipedia here,

Although the basic applications and guidelines that make the Internet possible had existed for almost a decade, the network did not gain a public face until the 1990s. On August 6, 1991, CERN, which straddles the border between France and Switzerland, publicized the new World Wide Web project, two years after British scientist Tim Berners-Lee had begun creating HTML, HTTP and the first few Web pages at CERN.

As you can clearly see, neither HTML nor HTTP helped invent the internet. In fact nobody starts working on new ideas by writing down standards.

<rant> You gotta stop smoking from Opera pipe and think rationally. </rant>

And other browser don't have to care about IE. I stand by it. Sure many websites might break but it is not something they have to do. And it is not only IE, partial blame lies with Netscape (err Mozilla :p) as well.

Opera can move fast and swift on standards because nobody gives rat's ass about it. When browsers are used in enterprise environment (mainly IE & Mozilla), they need to be sensitive about backward compatibility. Sure it is Microsoft's own mess but they can't just throw everything out of the window and allow only the latest & greatest work.

[d_ralphie]

If you go a bit low on personal attacks, I would like to continue on this debate. :rolleyes:

calling an argument nonsense is not a personal attack. it is actually attacking the argument and not the person.

You can not innovate following standards.

in other words, no innovation ever occurs according to you. because standards are EVERYWHERE, and if standards prevent innovation, then it is impossible to innovate because standards are all over the place.

anyone with at least a tiny clue knows that standards gives you a platform you can innovate on top of. but never mind the facts, eh?

You conveniently ignored parts of my post where I provided an example. Did you know that XMLHTTPRequest was not a standard when Microsoft introduced it? Do you know that it is still not a standard?

this is irrelevant to the fact that standards do not prevent innovation. if you can implement it, you can also propose to have it standardized. and guess what, that is exactly what opera, mozilla, apple, etc. are doing with html5, canvas, etc.

As you can clearly see, neither HTML nor HTTP helped invent the internet.

of course not. html and http are WEB technologies. the internet is more than the web, in case you didn't know :D

You gotta stop smoking from Opera pipe and think rationally.

what was that about personal attacks again?

And other browser don't have to care about IE.

this is completely false. both mozilla, opera and apple have stated that they spend a lot of time coding to be compatible with msie.

And it is not only IE, partial blame lies with Netscape (err Mozilla :p) as well.

netscape is not to blame for microsoft undermining standards for many years. opera, mozilla and others have warned microsoft for many years. it's microsoft's fault that they didn't listen.

Opera can move fast and swift on standards because nobody gives rat's ass about it.

what do you mean by that? firefox and safari implement many things that are not yet common. for example, safari supports a bit more css3 than opera at the moment. does that mean that nobody gives a rat's ass about firefox and safari? :D

Sure it is Microsoft's own mess but they can't just throw everything out of the window and allow only the latest & greatest work.

that is up to the ec.

[red.]

anybody is really going to remove opera from their computer only because they don't like this particular action? weird eh. how come you use windows then?

I personally am not going to/didn't say that i was going to remove Opera.

[BajiRav]

calling an argument nonsense is not a personal attack. it is actually attacking the argument and not the person.

in other words, no innovation ever occurs according to you. because standards are EVERYWHERE, and if standards prevent innovation, then it is impossible to innovate because standards are all over the place.

anyone with at least a tiny clue knows that standards gives you a platform you can innovate on top of. but never mind the facts, eh?

this is irrelevant to the fact that standards do not prevent innovation. if you can implement it, you can also propose to have it standardized. and guess what, that is exactly what opera, mozilla, apple, etc. are doing with html5, canvas, etc.

I should have better worded my post. I did not mean to say that standards prevent innovation/invention. But You can not always stick to standards when exploring new ideas. I have given enough examples to make this point. Unfortunately you are refusing to see through that.

of course not. html and http are WEB technologies. the internet is more than the web, in case you didn't know :D

Oh yeah I apologize for not being technically correct in a freakin forum post. :p But then you again ignored the intent of my post and nitpick on trivial matters. If you can't see that these "standards" followed the internet (which includes WWW in case you want to know) and not the other way, I am not wasting my time any more. Tim Berners-Lee did not start with writing HTML specs when he thought of WWW. That is what I am trying to say. Stop skirting main point in the discussion.

what was that about personal attacks again?

See ? That was there to prove a point. And in "standards" compliant tags to top it off :s

this is completely false. both mozilla, opera and apple have stated that they spend a lot of time coding to be compatible with msie.

netscape is not to blame for microsoft undermining standards for many years. opera, mozilla and others have warned microsoft for many years. it's microsoft's fault that they didn't listen.

Did you even try to understand what I was saying in my post ? They don't have to render "broken" websites including Google.com. They can show Google not being rendered properly. Where is Microsoft in the picture again?

About Netscape... what part of "partial blame" you did not understand? IE6 was the most standard compliant browser when it was introduced (or was it IE5). It is completely Microsoft's fault to ignore IE's development (related to rendering) for close to 5 years. Opera has been a whining baby for years. So let's not talk about them.

what do you mean by that? firefox and safari implement many things that are not yet common. for example, safari supports a bit more css3 than opera at the moment. does that mean that nobody gives a rat's ass about firefox and safari? :D

that is up to the ec.

err Mozilla includes all browsers that use Gecko (and hence Firefox). Nobody gives rat's ass about Safari in the context described in my post (which you again failed to comprehend).

[d_ralphie]

But You can not always stick to standards when exploring new ideas.

you don't have to. you can freely explore new ideas. but you should not violate the standards. and if you think you idea should be widely used on web sites, you should propose to make it a standard.

"but that takes so long!" you will inevitably complain.

yes, it takes a while. and why? because it needs to be done properly. it needs to address everything, from usability to security. and THIS is exactly where microsoft has failed: it has pushed out things that seemed like brilliant ideas at the time, but did not do their homework, and now they have a security nightmare they are trying to patch together.

But then you again ignored the intent of my post and nitpick on trivial matters.

not at all.

If you can't see that these "standards" followed the internet (which includes WWW in case you want to know) and not the other way, I am not wasting my time any more.

huh? what on earth are you trying to say? the internet is built on standards. ever heard about tcp/ip? yes, the internet, the modern source of massive innovation, would be impossible without proper standards

See ? That was there to prove a point. And in "standards" compliant tags to top it off :s

you are not making sense.

They don't have to render "broken" websites including Google.com. They can show Google not being rendered properly.

huh? who are they? are you saying that apple and mozilla should refuse to render sites that are not standards compliant? that it should be acceptable to them if google's site is broken?

About Netscape... what part of "partial blame" you did not understand?

the part where it's been ages since netscape 4 died.

Opera has been a whining baby for years. So let's not talk about them.

in case you didn't notice, this thread is about opera. funny how you want to change the subject when you once again have been proven wrong.

and again you ignore what i wrote about how mozilla has been on microsoft's case for years as well. oh, but i guess it is only whining when opera does it because mozilla is god and must be worshipped! :D

err Mozilla includes all browsers that use Gecko (and hence Firefox). Nobody gives rat's ass about Safari in the context described in my post (which you again failed to comprehend).

you said that opera can move fast because no one cares.

the fact is that mozilla and safari move fast too. they support lots of "upcoming" web technologies.

wow, why do i even bother replying when you manage to demolish your own claims yourself? :D

[BajiRav]

Internet was built on technologies that were made into standards. It was not invented by picking a few standards and making them work together. I have been trying to say this (innovation in general and not internet) since last so many posts in different words. I don't know what is so difficult to understand.

Yes, Netscape died ages ago but so did IE4,5 etc. Why do we need to bother about them ? You should be smart enough to understand since you put that point out first.

I know the topic is about Opera (or about Opera's complaint to EU since you will most likely pick on this) and I did not write Mozilla because they actually work better with others than Opera. Their browsers have been much better than opera (IMO) for years. A browser is not just standards compliance (which is major but still) you know.

The "let's not talk about them" part was about them being on Microsoft's back for years. Don't put my posts out of context. They are in bitchfight with Microsoft for I don't know how long. That's why their say doesn't count in this part.

And Mozilla does not move as fast as you make it sound. They are very sensitive about corporations. If you had some insight into that, then you will know. (I have some but don't claim to know everything). You would know that IE7 caused major problems when it was introduced and it was not just the standards thing. The point of my "nobody gives rat's ass" was this. IE has major market share and they have to make sure that things that worked should continue working while they update. And hence they can't move as fast as Opera/Safari can. IE's rendering engine is used in more places than just browser(and so is Mozilla's). And in that sense, nobody cares about Opera/Safari.

I am done posting if you can't see these two simple points.

My whole post is going to sound weird now :D unless you read it together with last two posts.

I did not demolish anything (even if I did, I don't care). If that makes you feel better then good for you.

[d_ralphie]

Internet was built on technologies that were made into standards.

the internet was built on standards.

It was not invented by picking a few standards and making them work together.\

this is not how standards work on the web either. you don't just randomly pick a few.

Yes, Netscape died ages ago but so did IE4,5 etc. Why do we need to bother about them ?

the point here being that netscape is not to blame for microsoft's actions today.

I did not write Mozilla because they actually work better with others than Opera

according to who? what do you base that on? more of your own ignorance and irrational hatred towards opera? why do you keep bashing opera?

opera has been active working together with others to create standards since before mozilla existed.

Their browsers have been much better than opera (IMO) for years.

good for you. opera is still smaller, faster and more secure than any mozilla product. it can even run on mobile phones, unlike gecko.

A browser is not just standards compliance (which is major but still) you know.

indeed. opera is a complete internet package. it has lots of useful things smoothly integrated in a secure manner rather than relying on poorly bolted on third party software.

but hey, opera is crap, right? not only is opera the worst browser ever, but the company is even more evil than microsoft. opera really sucks. yes, i get the point.

The "let's not talk about them" part was about them being on Microsoft's back for years.

yes, which both opera and mozilla have been. what is your point?

And Mozilla does not move as fast as you make it sound. They are very sensitive about corporations.

yes, and opera just spits in the face of corporations. they are pure evil. they move so fast mozilla can't keep up, according to you :D

did you know that opera is used in everything from refrigerators to air planes? their customers include companies like nintendo, sony, motorola, nokia, sony ericsson, t-mobile, adobe, etc. don't give me that bull**** about "sensitive about corporations". opera has been doing business with other corporations and delivering products to them for many years.

The point of my "nobody gives rat's ass" was this. IE has major market share and they have to make sure that things that worked should continue working while they update. And hence they can't move as fast as Opera/Safari can. IE's rendering engine is used in more places than just browser(and so is Mozilla's). And in that sense, nobody cares about Opera/Safari.

except opera's engine is used on a wide variety of devices. see above. my phone has opera on it. my game console has opera on it. my media player has opera on it. a hdtv i am considering buying has opera on it.

your ignorance about opera apparently fuels some kind of irrational hatred in you which makes you feel a fire in your heart which compels you to spread the word about how evil, useless, irrelevant and crappy opera is. educate yourself, and you'll cure that. prejudice only fuels hatred.

[Antaris Veteran]

This is what I was on about d_ralphie, how can we have an open discussion, if you shoot down every possible response?

There is no need to recycle the same answer you have been giving on every possible thread.

[d_ralphie]

i'm not sure what you expect... when someone makes blatantly false statements, should one not respond to them? and if these false statements are repeated, should one let them slip and let them get away with it? as long as people recycle the same old misunderstandings, other people will recycle the explanations to set things straight...