If Firefox 3 drops Vista look

[ViperAFK]

Some of the posts on here have bothered me so much that I need to reply.

Personally, I think it's a little extreme to say that you will switch browsers because of the theme not looking awesome. However, on the other end, to say that the look of the browser doesn't matter is equally retarded.

The fact of the matter is this: Firefox does not integrate well on Windows. It currently (FF2) integrates even worse on OS X, and on Linux. This is a big deal for many people. The visual look of an application is important. It's not as important as the functionality, but it's still up there.

Mozilla took it upon themselves to fix the visual look of Firefox on it's respective platforms. Where Firefox 3 stands currently, on both Mac OS X and Linux (at least on the GTK side), Mozilla has done a phenomenal job! Upon looking at the wonderful job they did on those platforms, Windows users should be excited that Firefox 3 will look fantastic. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Where it stands right now, Mozilla has completely dropped the ball on Windows. It's sad, since not only are the majority of Firefox users on Windows, but given the fantastic job they did on Linux and OS X, why couldn't they replicate that for Windows?

To those who say: "Just download a theme! Firefox is completely skin-able!" While it is true that Firefox can be modified with themes and skins, it's also true that the vast majority of skins out there are outright terrible. Of all the Firefox Vista themes out there, there is only 1 skin that truly looks amazing on Vista. That is this theme here: http://internauta2000.deviantart.com/art/F...k-Beta-45665026. There is one massive problem though: He never updates it. That theme is currently only available for Firefox 2, and I'm doubtful it will come out for Firefox 3.

I'm also not going to make my own theme. Like the vast majority of users out there, I don't have the time and patience to make a theme. For that reason, it would be excellent if Mozilla made a theme that was so awesome, I would never even consider seeking another.

That is why people are ****ed off! We want an application that looks native on the OS, and if you could do it for Linux and OS X, why not Windows?

I really agree here. I am not going to stop using firefox over it but still they should be a ble to come up with a MUCH better looking vista skin after what they have done on OSX and linux. I can never find ANY theme I like for firefox, most of them are crap. I just want it to look native and fit in with vista.

[Ayepecks]

Also agreed.

[EnzoFX]

but for years firefox has been past the "decent" looking phase. So, thus, it would be stupid NOW, to ditch it because it doesn't look like vista. There are some apps with god awful UI's, in those cases, YES, it becomes uber critical almost.

Secondly, No one responded to my comment where WMP11 doesn't really match vista either.

Lastly, a good look depends on who's judging, that theme linked above, the one that is the "only" good theme for FF, well I personally think is ugly. Not my taste, period.

This is FF, an established browser, and given this, MOST of the complaints on here are ridiculous.

(if it were not established/around for years, etc, or an upcoming app, where the UI was not up to modern standards, then the complaints here would make sense.)

[Linkinfamous]

but for years firefox has been past the "decent" looking phase. So, thus, it would be stupid NOW, to ditch it because it doesn't look like vista. There are some apps with god awful UI's, in those cases, YES, it becomes uber critical almost.

Secondly, No one responded to my comment where WMP11 doesn't really match vista either.

Lastly, a good look depends on who's judging, that theme linked above, the one that is the "only" good theme for FF, well I personally think is ugly. Not my taste, period.

This is FF, an established browser, and given this, MOST of the complaints on here are ridiculous.

(if it were not established/around for years, etc, or an upcoming app, where the UI was not up to modern standards, then the complaints here would make sense.)

WMP doesn't match Vista? It uses extended glass, and the buttons on that bar are very "Aeroesque". The bar's gradient color matches the taskbar overlay, and the button styles match the taskbar buttons perfectly.

(It's also the only real media player that comes with Vista to define what the Vista style for a media player is.)

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

Ok, everybody says they want a more native interface, without elaborating on it (I've read firefox needs to look more "modern", without any explanation to what "modern" actually is")

Anyway, what exactly do you guys mean by native?

[GEIST]

Who gives a damn what the Default theme looks like? The people who care about the look of it know where they can get other themes, and the people who don't care will most probably be fine with a Vista-like look. And somebody who'd switch to a different web browser because he doesn't like the oh my god so horrible Vista look must be insane anyways.

Anyway, what exactly do you guys mean by native?

I guess that would mean Firefox would/could look like IE7 or Explorer, toolbar wise, or even use Vista's GUI completely instead of Chrome.

[+Gary7 Subscriber²]

Firefox does not look fine as it is, it's the fugliest browser I have ever used, I have been waiting for the "Vista" look to show up inthe FF3 beta's to give it a try. If they decide not to add it then I will not be considering using it.

That is your opinion. There are several themes that you can install to change the look.

[zhangm Supervisor]

Mozilla did a great job integrating Linux and OS X themes.

They've given *uckall to Windows users. Honestly, I don't think they care at all. Or at least they've not put as much spit and polish on the Windows themes as they have for other platforms. I don't see any point in complaining, because if no one will listen to the 40-page long thread about how the Windows look should be changed, they aren't going to pay any attention to this thread on Neowin.

[AminoSC]

Dumb move Mozilla.

[Mikee99]

Oops! Is there a way to undo the vote? I accidentally voted "No" as in "No, I will NOT stop using Firefox", but the way the question is worded, my answer should be yes.

[Calum Veteran]

Mozilla did a great job integrating Linux and OS X themes.

They've given *uckall to Windows users. Honestly, I don't think they care at all. Or at least they've not put as much spit and polish on the Windows themes as they have for other platforms. I don't see any point in complaining, because if no one will listen to the 40-page long thread about how the Windows look should be changed, they aren't going to pay any attention to this thread on Neowin.

I agree with the fact that they haven't given anything to Windows users yet; however, Firefox 3 is still in BETA stage, so maybe Mozilla are still perfecting the theme and trying new things. no-one knows for sure yet, so it's best not to bash them until they release final version really, don't you agree?

Dumb move Mozilla.

They may not drop the Vista theme. It's not been confirmed yet as to whether the the Vista theme or the XP theme will be used for both Windows OSs, so don't judge Mozilla yet; hopefully they'll see that the Windows Vista theme is the way forward and they will perfect that :p

[Borbus]

Amen to that! Why can't they just make IE display pages properly! (Now IE 8 passes the Acid2 test, hopefully it will)...

Really? Last I heard, IE8 wasn't even going to apply CSS styles to new HTML 5 elements: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/12/07/HT...s-Viewed-By-IE8

[Knife Party]

off topic: how do i import opera passwords into FF3 ? - ive tried but with no luck :( --> i want to go back to firefox again.

on topic --> i just applied the black vista theme ...and it looks good :D

[Borbus]

Don't store passwords in your browser :no:

Check out KeePass: http://keepass.info/

Cross platform, can generate strong passwords, and can store more than just your passwords on the web.

[shakey_snake]

They may not drop the Vista theme. It's not been confirmed yet as to whether the the Vista theme or the XP theme will be used for both Windows OSs, so don't judge Mozilla yet; hopefully they'll see that the Windows Vista theme is the way forward and they will perfect that :p

Correct, but it has been confirmed that neither set of icons will be dropped:

http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2008/02/10...refox-3s-icons/

While many of these icons are currently featured in the nightly builds, and will be in Beta 3, several of the icons shown here are newer and haven’t landed yet (most notably updates to the keyhole back/forward form). The Vista icons are currently checked in, but haven’t been enabled in the nightly builds yet. This is because we are going to ship one theme on Windows, and determine the correct icons to display at runtime. Since the chrome overrides aren’t set up, we automatically default to the XP icons on Vista, and (as some people have pointed out) this looks rather funky. We should get that issue corrected soon.

I actually tried to do it.

I set the background to black, and make the call to extend glass.

This was the result:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=265448

Basically, the only issues seemed to be with the two text boxes. They're apparently drawing bitmaps so that alpha transparency works perfectly fine on top, they're just not rendering text properly for it. If they fix the text issue, glass would work beautifully.

Dude, nice work. But I have a feeling that if it was really that simple, it would have been implemented sometime in the last year and a half ff3 has been in development.

I mean, what does it look like if you load an extension like the Web developer toolbar?

Is it likely your enhancement will be added to ff3 blocker list?

[Linkinfamous]

I mean, what does it look like if you load an extension like the Web developer toolbar?

Those kind of toolbars aren't rendered with glass under IE, so I don't forsee a problem, so long as you keep it below the address bar.

But as I said, someone has to fix the text rendering issue before Extended Glass in Firefox is possible.

[zhangm Supervisor]

I agree with the fact that they haven't given anything to Windows users yet; however, Firefox 3 is still in BETA stage, so maybe Mozilla are still perfecting the theme and trying new things. no-one knows for sure yet, so it's best not to bash them until they release final version really, don't you agree?

No, I don't think they will change at all. They are clearly more committed to convincing people that they should like the ****ty theme as opposed to spending time and energy trying to improve it.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

So it's the icons you don't like?

[zhangm Supervisor]

Lets see, for OS X, they created brand new toolbar icons to mimic the color scheme and shape, as well as integrating the window to the titlebar like some native applications.

On the Vista theme, we see the menus that Vista has mostly ditched for "action toolbars", the ugly borders that were ditched when the Aero interface was created, thick, distinct embossing around the navigation buttons that look like a 12-year old made his first time in Photoshop, square interface elements such as text boxes, where in Vista, the corners are slightly rounded off, extra borders at the bottom of the website Identity button and the Search provider menu button, and yes, icons (look at the Home icon, its from XP) which do not conform in color, shape, thickness, or really with any actual icons from Vista. Padding and margins between interface elements make the interface seem crowded together. The chrome does not integrate smoothly with the Aero interface, unlike in the Unified appearance on OS X.

From what they've cobbled together so far, the interface on Windows was an experiment that went wrong, but they don't care enough to completely scrap and redo it.

[nazgul]

For those who haven't seen, someone posted this to the glass discussion on Bugzilla:

It was done with existing code, using a few extra css tweaks. Looks pretty good to me, if somebody does a theme with that, I'll be totally happy with it.

Link to Bugzilla: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=367993

[Smitjel]

So that's my issue. I don't want a browser that looks out of place in Vista.

Wow. That statement really just seems to fit the entire Microsoft/Windows culture. It's like you guys let insignificant things cloud your judgment on what really matters in software (web browsers, operating systems, etc.). Nevermind the underlying security of the browser or how well it conforms to web standards...nah, let's base our decision on how well it fits the Vista theme.

Good grief...how misguided is that logic?

[zhangm Supervisor]

IE7 integrates well into Vista in ways other than appearance. It runs as a low-privledge process (Protected Mode), renders things quickly, has good Javascript performance, Quick Tabs (which Firefox is still currently missing), and the ability to extend functionality via Addons.

The glass looks interesting, but you can see that the interface was never designed for a glass background (not that it looked great on that bright purplish blue one that they were using).

[jimbo11883]

The "bright purplish blue" is part of the Aero Glass/Basic theme, it is the default rebar background. Look at foobar2000's default UI or uTorrent's UI. Same thing.

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

According to this post over at the Mozillazine forums Vista users will see the new Aero-style icons starting with today's nightly.

[Calum Veteran]

Wow. That statement really just seems to fit the entire Microsoft/Windows culture. It's like you guys let insignificant things cloud your judgment on what really matters in software (web browsers, operating systems, etc.). Nevermind the underlying security of the browser or how well it conforms to web standards...nah, let's base our decision on how well it fits the Vista theme.

Good grief...how misguided is that logic?

Er, no, that 'logic' is not misguided at all! People just have different opinions. I'm doing a software engineering degree at university and I agree that the features are the most important part of software; however, the user interface also has to be friendly and intuitive, as well as nice to look at. Whilst Firefox 3's UI is somewhat user friendly, it certainly isn't nice to look at and many people use that as the deciding factor on whether they will use the web browser or not.

It isn't logic, it's personal opinion and it certainly isn't "misguided".