F1 World Championship 2008 Thread

[CrashG]

you mean only pulling <5s gap in a lighter car? as for lewis' tyre problem, if it was a driving problem, don't you think it would have happened in the first stint or the on the softer tyres?

hamilton didn't have an extra stop, the reason he lost a lot of time was due to having the tyre problem early in a lap so had to do most of a lap with a failed tyre

I thought he had to make a extra stop, (I nodded off for a few minutes) until I heard the announcers going crazy.

[Mike]

I thought he had to make a extra stop, (I nodded off for a few minutes) until I heard the announcers going crazy.

just the normal 2 stops afaik, the second obviously brought forward 10 or so laps

[brentaal]

you mean only pulling <5s gap in a lighter car?

Lewis was supposed to enter the pit stop in the very same lap as Massa, but they decided to postpone it for the next lap (why did McLaren do it? beats me). Massa's car wasn't lighter at all and I hope you're not making such an assumption just because he entered the pits one lap earlier. It had to do with getting ahead of Alonso so he wouldn't slow him down, not the fuel itself. He would easily be able to drive a couple of more laps if he had to.

[Fourjays Veteran]

I think it is a fair assumption that Massa was lighter and I believe McLaren made Lewis' first stop early in an attempt to pass Massa later on, except they never got the opportunity to play it through. I'll explain.

Throughout the weekend, McLaren appeared a good 0.5s quicker than Ferrari, particularly in Q1 and Q2. This indicates a stronger car. Then in Q3 the gap was only about 0.2s-0.3s. This indicates more fuel on board the McLaren's than Ferrari for Q3.

Now Massa made a great start and put a good move on Lewis. We all know how difficult it is for the cars to follow through long fast corners (which Hungary has plenty of) without losing a load of time. Massa had the lighter car, was in front and started to pull away. No chance for Lewis to get close enough to pass, so the move had to be in the pits. But the gap was 3s...

What I think McLaren did with Lewis was pit him early the first time round, filling him with a few laps more fuel than Massa. They could have run him 2-3 laps more on the first stop, but 3 seconds in 3 laps? No way. They added more fuel than Massa in the first stop (about 3-4 laps), on top of the 2-3 laps remaining fuel. Then if Lewis could stay within 3 seconds for the second stop, he'd have had about 6-8 laps in which to make up the time before his stop. Entirely possible, more so with Massa on the super-soft.

[Mike]

Lewis was supposed to enter the pit stop in the very same lap as Massa, but they decided to postpone it for the next lap (why did McLaren do it? beats me). Massa's car wasn't lighter at all and I hope you're not making such an assumption just because he entered the pits one lap earlier. It had to do with getting ahead of Alonso so he wouldn't slow him down, not the fuel itself. He would easily be able to drive a couple of more laps if he had to.

he was going faster than alonso so bringing him in earlier would mean less of a gap...

[Crazysah]

Unlucky for Massa.

[bayrider]

If Massa was running a substantially lighter fuel load, why did Hamilton only stay out extra lap? You'd think he'd push for a few more laps to narrow the gap and then go lighter on the fuel.

What's the word on Massa's blow up? Looked like an oil problem. And what about Kimmi? His front suspension looked woobly the last 3-4 laps of the race.

[Fourjays Veteran]

If Massa was running a substantially lighter fuel load, why did Hamilton only stay out extra lap? You'd think he'd push for a few more laps to narrow the gap and then go lighter on the fuel.

It was pointless staying out only 2-3 laps more because no matter how hard Hamilton pushed, he would only get it down from 3s to 1.5s at most. Then he'd be stuck in turbulent air again, on a lighter fuel load than Massa for the second stop. Then the same would happen at the next stop - down to 1.5s, back into turbulent air probably 5 seconds behind because of an earlier stop. The lighter fuel load would not let him get within 3s and even if it did, passing would be near impossible.

By pitting early and fuelling heavy, he would not only have the extra 3-4 laps of fuel from fuelling heavy, but the 2-3 left in the tank from his first stop. Totalling around 7 laps of extra fuel. Now if he could keep within 3 seconds, he'd have 7 laps in which to make up the 3s gap. Still not quite enough, but then there is a second important factor that during these 7 laps, Massa would have a heavy tank of fuel AND the much slower super soft tyres. So not only could Hamilton close the 3s, but gain another 2s or 3s over Massa.

And if it didn't work he'd still be in 2nd... tyres permitting. :p

[bayrider]

I know the super softs were slow but the harder set weren't much faster for Mr Hamilton at the end of the day :p

[Fourjays Veteran]

I know the super softs were slow but the harder set weren't much faster for Mr Hamilton at the end of the day :p

True. :laugh: I'm amazed the set of super softs lasted 28 laps.

Valencia next. :D Always like to see new tracks.

[Crazysah]

True. :laugh: I'm amazed the set of super softs lasted 28 laps.

Valencia next. :D Always like to see new tracks.

Yeah same here. After Valencia I will be looking forward to Singapore!

[Mosqutus]

the night race in singapore will be awesome

[brentaal]

Quite an interesting practice today in Valencia... Torro Rosso's S. Vettel came in first with a time of 1:40.496.

He sort of exploited a little loophole in the track's setup. :p

[Fourjays Veteran]

I noticed he purposely went off-track through one corner. Will be interesting to see if more do it. Not sure there is a rule against "going wide through a corner to gain time".

The next practice will probably be a little more representative. I think the first is very much a case of learning the track - the fastest times were changing quite frequently.

[Mike]

without seeing i dont know fully but, there has to be at least 1 (or maybe 2) wheel on the designated track area at all times, back in france, raikkonen seemingly went too straight over a chicane and did an extra lap as he wasn't sure if his lap was ok due to having almost all 4 wheels off the track area

[Shibby]

If the car detours a few times they will probably have a time penelty. A section at monaco, people kept missing the corner by just going straight on.

[brentaal]

Qualifying results

Massa (Y)

[Fourjays Veteran]

I expect Massa to be one of the lighter cars there, judging by their Q1 and Q2 times. Despite that, if temperatures are warmer tomorrow, Ferrari will be strong. If they remain cool, I expect them to struggle a little bit like Hockenheim.

Should be a good race though. The start should be interesting as the pole position side are not on the grippy part of the track.

Regards the track itself - from a racing perspective it looks great, but the surrounding atmosphere is pretty dismal. Far from a "modern Monaco".

[Mike]

I expect Massa to be one of the lighter cars there, judging by their Q1 and Q2 times. Despite that, if temperatures are warmer tomorrow, Ferrari will be strong. If they remain cool, I expect them to struggle a little bit like Hockenheim.

Should be a good race though. The start should be interesting as the pole position side are not on the grippy part of the track.

Regards the track itself - from a racing perspective it looks great, but the surrounding atmosphere is pretty dismal. Far from a "modern Monaco".

it's known ferrari's struggle heating their tyres in quali but more fuel = more work into the tyres = easier to heat up = faster car so he may not be that light.

agree on the other parts, pole position isn't on the grippy side which seems wrong really and there is a lot of blind corners and unforgiving barriers so any crash and the SC will be out

[Fourjays Veteran]

it's known ferrari's struggle heating their tyres in quali but more fuel = more work into the tyres = easier to heat up = faster car so he may not be that light.

You're right about Ferrari not getting up to temperature quick enough, but that wasn't really what I was referring to.

It was pretty much discovered after Hockenheim that Ferrari and McLaren use the tyres most effectively at different temperatures. Ferrari need track temperatures in the 30s, like they were yesterday, for the tyres to work properly. At those temperatures, the McLaren starts overheating and wears the tyres quickly. McLaren needs track temperatures in the 20s, like today. This is too low for Ferrari and they don't get maximum grip from the tyre, however it's perfect for the McLaren.

I believe it's completely accidental for McLaren, but it seems to have worked out in their favour a couple of times so far.

I think regards pole position placement, that it is decided on which gives the most direct line into the first turn, rather than which is actually quickest. There are a few races where 2nd is the better starting slot.

[Fergie]

pole position isn't on the grippy side which seems wrong really

It is now.

[Mike]

It is now.

interesting, wonder if anyone moans about it saying they qualified with that in mind

[CrashG]

interesting, wonder if anyone moans about it saying they qualified with that in mind

I'm sure someone will cry about it. :)

Should be an interesting race, with both Toro-Rosso cars starting in the top ten.

[CrashG]

What a disaster in the Ferrari pits, then R?ikk?nen's engine blowup. Good results for Vettle and both Toyota's.

Results:

[simonlang]

nice to see the ferrari engine not blowing up always on the same car. :)

massa in his own world today. impressive and mistake free.