New ban wave?

[Kushan]

Rubbish!

The ROM on the new Liteon drives is NOT writable, that is the problem. Liteon key dumping is do-able in order to switch drives using that key, but its a big risk, and a costly one at that. Good on MS for taking the much needed step of installing a drive that cant be flashed with anything. Lets see more of this type of prevention in future :)

An Xbox fitted with a device that alerts MS when opened or tampered with would be an expensive thing, but a good one IMO. ;)

Wrong!

I can't link to this quote, for obvious reasons, but if you know how to use google, you can verify it:

Got a drive as gift for testing (thanks Raiden)

Some small update:

it's an embedded spi flash, exactly an MX25L2005 and dosflash1.6 can write it.

The bad is that you can access it only if it's completely erased, this seems to be the "check module" mentioned into the patent

About reading the fw, i can just get 3-4 256bytes chunks in a tricky way, but can't have a complete dump this way.

reading dvdkey: ok

reading unique drive data: ok

erasing flash: ok

writing flash: ok

reading flash: missing

Note: Not condoning piracy in any way, shape or form, I just don't like it when people spread FUD, even if it's FUD about illegal things.

[scaramonga]

Wrong!

I can't link to this quote, for obvious reasons, but if you know how to use google, you can verify it:

Note: Not condoning piracy in any way, shape or form, I just don't like it when people spread FUD, even if it's FUD about illegal things.

And why not? If its gonna make at least 100 folks buy the actual games, then its well worth it, I'll have done my bit ;) Anywayz, by the time the liteon drives can or not be flashed, after all, its taken the best part of a year so far, MS will have shipped new boxes with better drives, thus staying one step ahead, not all, but most of the time :)

Like I said, a tamper proof box will be the way to go, they do it with cars here, it can be done :)

[magik]

And why not? If its gonna make at least 100 folks buy the actual games, then its well worth it, I'll have done my bit ;) Anywayz, by the time the liteon drives can or not be flashed, after all, its taken the best part of a year so far, MS will have shipped new boxes with better drives, thus staying one step ahead, not all, but most of the time :)

Like I said, a tamper proof box will be the way to go, they do it with cars here, it can be done :)

Of course it can be done, but they won't do it. It would greatly increase the costs of repairing/replacing consoles on warranty.

[Kushan]

And why not? If its gonna make at least 100 folks buy the actual games, then its well worth it, I'll have done my bit ;) Anywayz, by the time the liteon drives can or not be flashed, after all, its taken the best part of a year so far, MS will have shipped new boxes with better drives, thus staying one step ahead, not all, but most of the time :)

Like I said, a tamper proof box will be the way to go, they do it with cars here, it can be done :)

It was the same for the BenQ drives this time last year and there IS a way around the liteon drive - just replace it with a Samsung drive that can be easily purchased for less than ?20. Not ideal, sure, but it shows this won't prevent piracy, just make it a LITTLE bit more expensive (Still less than the cost of a game, though, which is usually an excuse people use to do it - if it cost ?300 on top of the console, people wouldn't be so keen).

There's no such thing as "tamper-proof", Microsoft is using what's known as "security through obscurity" and all that takes is time. All the special hacker people need is ONE full dump from a liteon drive and they'll be able to flash them, it's not as simple as it sounds, but it's still remarkably simple.

Anyway, spreading FUD is pointless, all it does is destroy your own credibility, rendering any true information you have suspect.

Also one final note: For those of you out there badmouthing all the people who hack the 360 and the like, you should know that one of the Admins of this very forum was once the leader of one of the biggest and longest-running warez groups out there. Think about that;);)

[scaramonga]

Of course it can be done, but they won't do it. It would greatly increase the costs of repairing/replacing consoles on warranty.

That is the downside....yes. But maybe the 'end user' just has to suffer and pay a lot more because of the few who refuse to support those who make great gaming for us all? Piracy hikes the price up for us all in the end, we all end up paying for those who think everything is entitled to them for free. The 'loser' will always be the one that pays his/her way, no matter what.

Anyway, spreading FUD is pointless, all it does is destroy your own credibility, rendering any true information you have suspect.

You think after over 5 years on this board I'm worried about my 'own credibility'?? lol. Let me tell you this, I'm past caring about what peeps think of me and/or what I say, I frankly do not give one jot either way, I'll say it how I see it, and if that upsets you or others, well, I'll lose no sleep whatsoever. Spreading 'FUD' (or whatever you call it) means nothing to myself, but I guess your younger than me so you will know more about that than I? :)

Edited November 15, 2008 by scaramonga

[Kushan]

You think after over 5 years on this board I'm worried about my 'own credibility'?? lol. Let me tell you this, I'm past caring about what peeps think of me and/or what I say, I frankly do not give one jot either way, I'll say it how I see it, and if that upsets you or others, well, I'll lose no sleep whatsoever. Spreading 'FUD' (or whatever you call it) means nothing to myself, but I guess your younger than me so you will know more about that than I? :)

Obviously it does bother you or you wouldn't still be replying. My point was that you were incorrect and rather than you just admitting you were wrong, you used the excuse of "well I'm just doing my little bit to prevent piracy!", now that I've pointed out that by spreading untruths, your efforts will be less effective, you seem to have decided to point out other random, meaningless things such as:

• Age
  
• Length of time on the board
  

I don't really know what it is you're trying to do now, save face perhaps, but it's certainly pointless, unproductive and off-topic from this thread.

Piracy will always exist and it will always exist because it stems from reasons OTHER than greed and selfishness, the sooner people realise that, the sooner a real solution to the problem can be made.

[+Mystic MVC]

asdasd

[Kushan]

The PS3 will eventually be broken like everything eventually is, one of the reasons (as you pointed out) is Blu-Ray - the sheer size of it and the "newness" of it help get in the way of that, but it really is only a matter of time (Actually someone HAS found a way to play backups from a hard drive, but you need two different hard drives to do it, both with the full game on it and at 25 or 50Gb a pop, it's simply not viable. I'd imagine once Blu-ray drives become more popular, along with cheaper disks, we'll see a large rise in PS3 piracy. Plus, don't forget there's nothing worth pirating on the bloody thing! =P (Note: Joke).

As for the reasons behind piracy, cost IS one of those issues. Yeah, you could say that those who can't afford it can't afford it for a reason, that maybe they should get a better job or that maybe they should have worked harder in school, but we all know it's never as black and white as that, plus a lot of those people tend to do the small, menial jobs that most people would rather not, but without people doing those jobs, society itself would collapse and fail. So...one might ask, should those same people have less than those that require them in order to have the jobs and opportunities they have?

Quite a philosophical debate, I know, but there's no right answer for it, it's up for you to decide ;)

[+Mystic MVC]

fsdfsdf

[Kushan]

That's my point, though, people generalise pirates in such a bad light, but for a LOT of people (more than you'd imagine), it's the only real choice they have if they want to sample things like games.

Sure, you might argue that "it's the choice they've made, they have to live with it", but more people simply didn't get that choice, through one reason or another they live below or very close to the poverty line. I'm not saying people don't use it as an excuse because they're greedy or whatever, quite a lot do, but on the same note, quite a lot don't.

Plus, don't forget that these days there's a HELL of a lot of quality games out there, particularly at this time of year and even those who do purchase games cannot afford them all, but their sheer dedication to games forces them to pirating the ones they wouldn't be able to buy anyway. In those instances, it's very hard to say that it's "harming" the industry, as no real revenue is lost.

One of the things about games is that they tend not to get affected by the economic situation - people buy games to escape the dreariness of life, so when people say "ah well maybe those people don't deserve games", they don't seem to grasp that as much "harm" as it's doing to the industry (which is a fallacy in itself, for the most part), it's actually doing good for certain parts of society. Double-edged sword, for sure, but it's definitely worth noting.

[spenser.d]

That's my point, though, people generalise pirates in such a bad light, but for a LOT of people (more than you'd imagine), it's the only real choice they have if they want to sample things like games.

That's just an excuse though and not a good one. I work my ass off to pay my living expenses (rent, food, cable, etc) and I have student loans that pay for my tuition and I still manage to not pirate games. I stopped pirating music about two years ago too. You need to prioritize things and if money's not willing for videogames then you don't get them. Pirating isn't right because you just can't pay. Videogames aren't a necessity.

-Spenser

[simonlang]

yah i think with the last xbox update they banned a lot of consoles already, i expect the same with the new "experience" (now i know for what that word stands :laugh: )

[magik]

That is the downside....yes. But maybe the 'end user' just has to suffer and pay a lot more because of the few who refuse to support those who make great gaming for us all? Piracy hikes the price up for us all in the end, we all end up paying for those who think everything is entitled to them for free. The 'loser' will always be the one that pays his/her way, no matter what.

So you'd rather pay more than have a small minority of people get it for free? That doesn't make any sense. Plus, once you actually start making it more expensive, that minority will soon tether on the majority.

[Kushan]

Ahh there you have it! Tuition fees! You've actually got a much better start in life than many people will ever have and you yourself admit that you work hard to scrape a living. Call it an excuse if you like, but the fact of the matter is that games are expensive. Plus, as socialist as this may sound, I'm a firm believer that everyone on the planet should be afforded the same opportunities as everyone else, regardless as to their background. It's sad, but even today many people who come from a poor background have little to no chance of getting out of it. We're the lucky ones.

[+Mystic MVC]

dasdasdasd

[Kushan]

Like I said, generalisations go both ways and for every "well-off" person that pirates and makes excuses, there's someone who never had much of a choice.

To be honest, there's a lot more to it than money, maybe I'm just crazy, but I don't really like capitalism, I don't like this idea that someone who happens to have more money than someone else is entitled to more. Sure, some people worked really hard for that money and they genuinely do deserve it, but a lot of people either "Get lucky" or inherit it from their background. You know what they say, it's not what you know, it's who you know.

The scope of this thread isn't anywhere near large enough to discuss it and to really understand what I'm trying to say, particularly as it goes against just about everything we've ever been taught. Maybe I'm just crazy, maybe I'm a borderline communist (haha, yeah right), but I have some strange ideals =P

[+Mystic MVC]

asdasd

[Kushan]

Ahh but as I half-heartedly pointed out, I'm not QUITE a "dirty commie", for everything bad I can say about democracy and capitalism, I can say ten things about Communism and Fascism.

I guess my main concern is that the world around us is changing, the laws of theft don't apply so well to software since with software, nothing is necessarily stolen, it's just copied. That's one argument that always gets thrown around and it's naive to think that copying doesn't mean someone isn't loosing something, but why aren't those laws also changing and adapting to meet modern society?

[HawkMan]

Also one final note: For those of you out there badmouthing all the people who hack the 360 and the like, you should know that one of the Admins of this very forum was once the leader of one of the biggest and longest-running warez groups out there. Think about that. ;)

As I recall, He also spent quite a bit of jailtime for that, during wich time he grew up, and he is now quite anti piracy if I remember the topics right.

[gigapixels Veteran]

Also one final note: For those of you out there badmouthing all the people who hack the 360 and the like, you should know that one of the Admins of this very forum was once the leader of one of the biggest and longest-running warez groups out there. Think about that. ;)

That is completely incorrect. None of our admins have anything to do with that. Get your facts straight.

[Berserk87]

That is completely incorrect. None of our admins have anything to do with that. Get your facts straight.

his facts are half true, it just wasnt an admin.

[HawkMan]

one of the editors in chief, guess wich one :p

and unless the thread is removed or something, he had a big thread about his history and the history of Razor 1911 (if I'm right) and why he did it at the time and why hi thinks it wrong and all that, that shoudl still be brued somewhere. I seem to remember it was a pretty good read at the time, wether you agree with everything he said or not.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Even if it were true, that's the guys private life.

As long as no mods/admins brought their "warez" or "illegal" background, whatever you want to call it, publicly to the forums I wouldn't care. Obviously if something like that goes public however, it's bad PR for Neowin to have sites saying "Warez Group Leader runs NW" or something.

So I don't know what worth that comment is Kushan.

Many people in role model positions probably dabble in piracy/modding, as long as they keep their mouths shut/interests private in places people don't want to see that kind of talk, then there's nothing to see.

[Berserk87]

one of the editors in chief, guess wich one :p

and unless the thread is removed or something, he had a big thread about his history and the history of Razor 1911 (if I'm right) and why he did it at the time and why hi thinks it wrong and all that, that shoudl still be brued somewhere. I seem to remember it was a pretty good read at the time, wether you agree with everything he said or not.

true and true.

i found all the links.

[HawkMan]

Even if it were true, that's the guys private life.

As long as no mods/admins brought their "warez" or "illegal" background, whatever you want to call it, publicly to the forums I wouldn't care. Obviously if something like that goes public however, it's bad PR for Neowin to have sites saying "Warez Group Leader runs NW" or something.

So I don't know what worth that comment is Kushan.

Many people in role model positions probably dabble in piracy/modding, as long as they keep their mouths shut/interests private in places people don't want to see that kind of talk, then there's nothing to see.

Well he did talk about it here on Neowin, didn't find the thread but it should be out there, I might just suck at searching :)

it's not a secret, and as I said I think he's arily anti piracy now, and he's done his time for it.