F1 World Championship 2009 Thread

[Grepus]

Prefer the news about Lotus making a comeback next year :)

[Subject Delta]

Its interesting, but in reality its sadly just a bunch of rich businessmen using the Lotus name. Will sure be nice to see the name back, but sadly, I feel the team will be more lotus in name than in spirit.

[Crazysah]

If Renault are kicked out, BMW will take their place

Is there a limitation on the number of teams participation next season? Is there a maximum number of teams?

[Pablo2008jedi]

Next season is currently limited to 13 teams, BMW are on place 14 and discussions are in place to raise the limit to 14.

[Mike]

wow thats heavy stuff. now with that they are really confess that they fixed singapore gp 2008 and deliberately destroyed felipe massas world championship.

me thinks that someone has to pay a loooooooooooot of money now.

I was unaware Renault broke Ferrari's light system, made Massa drive off to early with the fuel right still attached.

If Renault are kicked out, BMW will take their place

It'll be unlikely that Renault are kicked out. From the FIA docs it appears it was only the 3 involved with no one else knowing and so with Piquet already gone and Briatore / Symonds also gone, who is there to punish at Reanult? You can't fairly punish a team for actions of a tiny minority (3 out of what? 500 people?) who are no longer there. Unless Renault have people to bring in to replace them, they'll be there next year.

[Subject Delta]

I hope you're right, but in my opinion even if the officials involved are left, it is simply inconceivable to let such a high level offence go buy without an equally high level punishment. IMO race fixing is even worse than the 2007 spying scandal, so I can't foresee any way out of a really heavy punishment for renault. Collective guilt, the team principal bears all responsibility for the running of the team, hence the team are legally culpable for his actions

And agreed. What Renault did was unacceptable, but Ferrari screwed up all of their own accord.

[Shibby]

Well with Pat and Thong man out of the way, this now means that if anything at the most Renault will be fined something like ?20-30 million.

[simonlang]

I was unaware Renault broke Ferrari's light system, made Massa drive off to early with the fuel right still attached.

think again. if piquet didnt crash out that early and caused a SC, ferrari would have never made that pitstop!

[Mike]

I hope you're right, but in my opinion even if the officials involved are left, it is simply inconceivable to let such a high level offence go buy without an equally high level punishment. IMO race fixing is even worse than the 2007 spying scandal, so I can't foresee any way out of a really heavy punishment for renault. Collective guilt, the team principal bears all responsibility for the running of the team, hence the team are legally culpable for his actions

The fine for McLaren due to the spying thing was because of how deep it went and McLaren's stance of it only being a couple of people. With the Renault fixing it *is* (afaik) only the 3 people who have all now left and no other team member was part of it. To punish the Renault team for something only a couple of people did (and who have now left) would be very unfair.

Go back to the start of this year and the lieing thing. Dave Ryan was sacked and Ron Dennis left the F1 part of McLaren as they were the main offenders. You could compare that case with Piquet being Hamilton (the driver talked into doing something wrong), Symonds being Ryan (the person to go into detail with the driver) and Briatore being Dennis (the head who okayed it). Nothing happened to McLaren as the FIA were happy that the offenders were no long in the sport and so I'd be surprised if something big hits Renault other than Renault deciding to leave.

think again. if piquet didnt crash out that early and caused a SC, ferrari would have never made that pitstop!

True but I wasn't aware that Piquet pressed the button to release Massa, face it, Ferrari messed up nobody else.

[Subject Delta]

think again. if piquet didnt crash out that early and caused a SC, ferrari would have never made that pitstop!

Safety Cars are something that happen frequently in Formula 1. Ok, this time Renault's cheating caused it, but the fact is that there is NO excuse for Ferrari to screw that pitstop up as badly as they did. Renault are to blame for fixing the race, but Ferrari lost Massa his points all by themselves.

The fine for McLaren due to the spying thing was because of how deep it went and McLaren's stance of it only being a couple of people. With the Renault fixing it *is* (afaik) only the 3 people who have all now left and no other team member was part of it. To punish the Renault team for something only a couple of people did (and who have now left) would be very unfair.

Go back to the start of this year and the lieing thing. Dave Ryan was sacked and Ron Dennis left the F1 part of McLaren as they were the main offenders. You could compare that case with Piquet being Hamilton (the driver talked into doing something wrong), Symonds being Ryan (the person to go into detail with the driver) and Briatore being Dennis (the head who okayed it). Nothing happened to McLaren as the FIA were happy that the offenders were no long in the sport and so I'd be surprised if something big hits Renault other than Renault deciding to leave.

The problem with that is, race fixing is extremely serious, and the FIA absolutely have to be seen to crack down on it hard to give F1 any credibility.

[Mike]

The problem with that is, race fixing is extremely serious, and the FIA absolutely have to be seen to crack down on it hard to give F1 any credibility.

The lieing thing was partially fixing the result too though. I agree on the public view though which is why I expect something to come out, maybe preventing Briatore/Symonds from being involved in any FIA championship again?

[Subject Delta]

Could be, I doubt any team would seriously consider employing them after this anyway, their reputation will be destroyed by it. Shame really because although Flabio is an idiot, Pat Symonds is an extremely talented guy.

[digitalsoft]

I haven't been able to keep upto date with the current story yet but If Renault have been found guilty does this mean Alonso's race win has been taken away?!

[san.W10]

Max had said there wont be any change in race result.

Renault's reputation in f1 is destroyed by 3 noobs.

Something funny- no one is interested in Ferrari engines. :p

[simonlang]

i dont blame ferrari. i blame renault. ferrari doing that mistake with felipe at the pitstop was just a CONSEQUENCE of renault fixing the race.

i can also argue that rosberg is a great driver and singapore was maybe not his first race where he was finding himself in 2nd position, but here its the same: his 2nd position was a consequence of renault fixing that gp and causing a sc.

normal gp it would most likely have ended with:

1. massa

2. raikkonen or hamilton

3. hamilton or raikkonen

thats a fact. if u argue otherwise you can also argue that a murderer should not get to prison because the person he killed would have died later/other way anyway.

[Subject Delta]

Max had said there wont be any change in race result.

Renault's reputation in f1 is destroyed by 3 noobs.

Something funny- no one is interested in Ferrari engines. :p

At this moment Mercedes engines are the hot ticket. More powerful, more efficient and more reliable.

i dont blame ferrari. i blame renault. ferrari doing that mistake with felipe at the pitstop was just a CONSEQUENCE of renault fixing the race.

i can also argue that rosberg is a great driver and singapore was maybe not his first race where he was finding himself in 2nd position, but here its the same: his 2nd position was a consequence of renault fixing that gp and causing a sc.

normal gp it would most likely have ended with:

1. massa

2. raikkonen or hamilton

3. hamilton or raikkonen

thats a fact. if u argue otherwise you can also argue that a murderer should not get to prison because the person he killed would have died later/other way anyway.

Maybe, but like I stated, safety cars and pit stops happen all the time, and Ferrari cannot use Renault as an excuse for their own screwup.

And your argument fails because Renault didn't make Ferrari pit Massa or ****-up their pit stop, they just caused the triggering event. That would be like saying that I deserve to go to jail for murder if I steal someone's bike, so that next day they get a car into work instead, and hit and kill a pedestrian.

Causality, cause and effect. The cause was Renault's cheating, the effect was Ferrari's screwup. The events are linked, but only indirectly.

[Mike]

You also cannot take what happened at 1 race to change the entire championship. Who's to say someone else might not have crashed later on near the pit-window for Massa and lost him the race? It also a fact that Hamilton wouldn't have aimed for 5th in Brazil if Massa was closer in the championship.

[Subject Delta]

It is also a fact that Hamilton would have won the title more comfortably had the idiots in the stewards office in Belgium robbed him of a win that was rightfully his. I feel Hamilton was the rightful winner of the 2008 title, Renault didn't cost Ferrari the title, their own screwups and mechanical failures did

[simonlang]

interesting read in the telegraph:

source

Ferrari's and Massa's case against Renault could prove more substantial. The Brazilian, who had been leading in Singapore until Piquet's crash, finished 13th in the race and ended up losing the championship to Lewis Hamilton by a single point. Both he and the team's loss of earnings would be significant.

Stephen Hornsby, a specialist sports lawyer for Davenport Lyons, believes they could potentially have a stronger case than Sheffield United, who won ?30 millon in damages from West Ham over the Carlos T?vez affair earlier this year after being relegated from the Premier League in 2007."There is a clear causal link between the alleged cheating and the financial loss to Massa and his team,b>" Hornsby said.

i think its nice that an expert like stephen hornsby agrees with me on that.:p:p

[Subject Delta]

I disagree with them. Fact is anything could have happened. Massa could have crashed out himself, Ferrari could have still fudged up the pitstop anyway, someone else could have crashed, he could have had a mechanical failure. There are too many variables here at play for Ferrari to make a cast iron claim that they where guaranteed to win the race, or even finish it for that matter for them to successfully claim against Renault. Whilst him winning was a strong possibility it was far from a certainty and therefore I believe any payout Ferrari receive will be minimal.

[Subject Delta]

This is quiet an interesting timeline of the events surrounding this scandal:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78682

[Mike]

interesting read in the telegraph:

source

i think its nice that an expert like stephen hornsby agrees with me on that. :p

Davenport Lyons are a bunch of money grabbing idiots. The reason Sheff Utd got compensation was because West Ham were the ones that escaped relegation at their expense, Renault didn't beat Ferrari to any title. A comparable case would be whoever finished below Renault in the constructors (and if they were 1 or 2 points behind) then it would be a problem.

[san.W10]

Why Didnt the FOTA oppose the new malaysian team for using "Lotus" brand name?

Btw, singapore having weather problem. :D

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

Why Didnt the FOTA oppose the new malaysian team for using "Lotus" brand name?

Btw, singapore having weather problem. :D

Why would the FOTA have anything against using Lotus as team name?

More importantly: Elaborate on which weather problem you know of for the Singapore GP.

[Mike]

^ the smog, see http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78694