Apple responds to Microsoft ads: "a PC is no bargain"

[Boz]

I wouldn't post with these corrections as I'm overall agreeing with your assertions re PC's running OS X and Macs running Windows but I felt it prudent to point out these inconsistencies.

Noted. However I was basically responding about the "native" nature. There's nothing native about it, at least not with Windows XP which was the original Windows on a Mac. You are correct about EFI and Intel, but Windows XP did not support it thus it was pretty impossible to run Windows XP on a Mac until the hack competition solved the problem. All I did was point out the curious coincidence that happened right after the hack was released, a month later Apple came out with Bootcamp even though they said they would not do it. They were obviously influenced or even taken to some extent the solution from this competition to make Windows XP work at that point.

That was the sole purpose of Bootcamp. It acted as a boot layer so you could install XP. With Vista, there's no need for a hack because Vista supports EFI so you can boot it from the disc by pressing C and picking DVD drive as boot just like on any other x86 based PC, but you won't be able to partition HFS/Mac partitions.Again, this is all Windows thing, not Mac/OSX.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Boz

[Boz]

And another thing. Even though I own Apple's most powerful Mac, I find the overpricing pretty mind-boggling with them.

First example is the new ATI 4870 upgrade kit for a Mac Pro that costs $380ish. The same card/chip with 1gb memory (Apple's is 512mb) can be had for $185 on NewEgg. Which clearly shows why Apple computers are overpriced. Same components, huge markups and there's absolutely no difference in components.

So what all these defensive articles boil down to is OSX and how the case looks nice. As I addressed before, running Mac and OSX for years, I can freely say that even with the need for antivirus and other software on Windows I had actually more problems with my Mac then with PCs, including hilarious bugs and revisions of Leopard from the start with incompatibilities in software, mysterious things like keyboard simply stopping to work in Finder until you log out and a bunch of other things and I'm not even getting into the whole Rosetta fiasco where apps ran 1/3 of speed when compared to PC apps.

What's also interesting is that Apple stopped making those famous charts where they compare Apple computer performance to Intel PC. I wonder why? ;)

[Vice]

Yes I agree they had their hand pushed by the 3rd party developers. However bootcamp itself is not a boot layer its not a boot device nor does it effect the ability for Windows or Linux or any other compatible x86 operating system to boot on a Macintosh. It is just basic Partition software which makes it easier. And even then the code for actually partition in the way that Bootcamp does is present in OS X and can be accessed through a Terminal session Bootcamp just puts a nice GUI on top of that.

The actual BIOS emulation is all done inside EFI which sits on the Motherboard. I had a Mac back then when they released the Bootcamp beta and what they did was release a firmware update for all Intel based Macs via Software Update and this contained the updated EFI firmware with BIOS support. Once you had that you could comfortable boot in to Windows straight away but you would have to Wipe your Mac OS X partition to do so unless the OS you were booting in to had the capability to re-size / repartition OS X created Partitions (Which not a lot if any did back then, I still don't know of any that can do it right now).

There are a few Motherboards in the market at the moment that run on EFI with BIOS support as-well its no different to what Apple are doing. EFI is very advanced.

[Boz]

The actual BIOS emulation is all done inside EFI which sits on the Motherboard. I had a Mac back then when they released the Bootcamp beta and what they did was release a firmware update for all Intel based Macs via Software Update and this contained the updated EFI firmware with BIOS support.

So an EFI update is still something correct? Bootcamp wouldn't work without it? Or at least not with Windows XP as far as I'm aware, so it did require meddling with EFI, which is what I was trying to point out. They had to "hack" it or update it or whatever you want to call it. I may have pointed to Bootcamp as it is the first thing you use so I appreciate the correction.

[MrChuang]

:laugh: All four of the new apple ads are great and much better than Microsoft's ones. Apple seems to have a creative and comedy side to their ads whereas Microsoft just puts out a straight point.

[Boz]

:laugh: All four of the new apple ads are great and much better than Microsoft's ones. Apple seems to have a creative and comedy side to their ads whereas Microsoft just puts out a straight point.

The only thing that's funny about those is that they are all repetitive and really not something that Mac users will be free off. There are more and more viruses on OSX and system patches and updates are definitely not PC/Windows thing. Just cause you ignore it, doesn't mean it doesn't or it won't happen (which it recently happened when a bunch of macs became zombies for a new Trojan). And I find it really silly that Apple constantly tries to make themselves as NOT PC. Apple constantly has to put out security and OS patches, so basically it's just spreading nonsense and fueling hatred trying to be funny. Not to mention that OSX has blue screens too and ridiculous crashes even more so then Windows right now despite a bunch of apps running.

I'm definitely not a worshiper of Microsoft, but I really hate the Apple hypocrisy.At least Microsoft says it what it is and doesn't make digs directly against Apple, which shows much greater maturity if anything.

And that facial recognition ad is so silly and incorrect. Microsoft Photosynth is so much more advanced then what Apple is using it's not even funny. And that came right from Microsoft Labs which Apple simply copied.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Boz

[Vice]

So an EFI update is still something correct? Bootcamp wouldn't work without it? Or at least not with Windows XP as far as I'm aware, so it did require meddling with EFI, which is what I was trying to point out. They had to "hack" it or update it or whatever you want to call it. I may have pointed to Bootcamp as it is the first thing you use so I appreciate the correction.

Yeah an EFI update is something. All I'm trying to correct is the saying that Bootcamp is what makes it work and that EFI's support of BIOS is somehow a hack when its a built in feature of EFI and Bootcamp is only partition software and nothing more. That is all.

[MrChuang]

The only thing that's funny about those is that they are all repetitive and really not something that Mac users will be free off. There are more and more viruses on OSX and system patches and updates are definitely not PC/Windows thing. Just cause you ignore it, doesn't mean it doesn't or it won't happen (which it recently happened when a bunch of macs became zombies for a new Trojan). And I find it really silly that Apple constantly tries to make themselves as NOT PC. Apple constantly has to put out security and OS patches, so basically it's just spreading nonsense and fueling hatred trying to be funny. Not to mention that OSX has blue screens too and ridiculous crashes even more so then Windows right now despite a bunch of apps running.

I'm definitely not a worshiper of Microsoft, but I really hate the Apple hypocrisy.At least Microsoft says it what it is and doesn't make digs directly against Apple, which shows much greater maturity if anything.

And that facial recognition ad is so silly and incorrect. Microsoft Photosynth is so much more advanced then what Apple is using it's not even funny. And that came right from Microsoft Labs which Apple simply copied.

Just to start off so I don't start a war which usually occurs. I like both Microsoft and Apple (I use my main Computer with Windows, and my macbook with Leopard).

I don't use an antivirus on my Macbook because viruses are hard to get on OS X whereas with just a little browsing the internet on Windows with no antivirus you can browse to a website (for example a serial key website) and sometimes add-ons will install without you knowing, or pop-ups will flash up. On Leopard this doesn't seem to be the case as most viruses are made for Windows and you can browse to the same site without any trouble. Also about the updates Microsoft seems to release updates very regularly where Apple released a whole package every few months which is an update to the system (10.5.6 to 10.5.7 to 10.5.8). If you have more products from Apple installed like 'ilife 09' you will get more updates available for Leopard, this is the same on Windows so with program updates it is very even for the amount of them issued.

[Boz]

Just to start off so I don't start a war which usually occurs. I like both Microsoft and Apple (I use my main Computer with Windows, and my macbook with Leopard).

I don't use an antivirus on my Macbook because viruses are hard to get on OS X whereas with just a little browsing the internet on Windows with no antivirus you can browse to a website (for example a serial key website) and sometimes add-ons will install without you knowing, or pop-ups will flash up. On Leopard this doesn't seem to be the case as most viruses are made for Windows and you can browse to the same site without any trouble.

This is natural because it comes with market share. The number of security holes btw are the highest on OSX fyi, it's just that you don't really care because you think you are safe, which is perfectly fine until it happens to you. The whole virus thing through websites is pretty much gone or at least more rare, since browsers got better and ActiveX which was a necessity for many other cool things you could build was to blame. That is fixed and if you try to browse a malicious site with IE or FF on Windows you will get a warning and the site would get locked down.

There's also Data Execution Prevention (DEP) you can define, Windows Defender against Spyware and UAC that protect you. Admittedly UAC is annoying (something that will be fixed in Windows 7) but you can download Norton UAC control, which is free that will allow you to remember often used parts of OS and it won't ask you ever again locally. So essentially you don't really need an Anti-Virus but you still use it because you can download something, run it and get it just like it's happening in OSX with pirated/downloaded iWork '09 and turned Macs into online zombies.. I ran my both PCs without an anti-virus software and didn't get a virus at all. Now I do run anti-virus, but it's more of a precaution then real necessity.

Also, OSX not only has quite a bit of updates and they are not only for Leopard or apps but a bunch of security fixes too. Windows does it just the same and Windows Update is pretty much transparent, it will only ask you to restart if it's something important, just like on OSX.

So in essence everything they spout in these ads through funny rhetoric is really BS.

And I really don't feel right defending Microsoft as they are not a peach company by any means but I hate even more childish and misleading information Apple is doing trying to promote something that's not entirely true. Apple's legal team is the WORST out of all corporations, including numerous limitations and legal stuff for OSX or apps and they have the nerve to talk about EULAs. Not to mention the fact the amount of companies they have shut down just because they compete with their own products. Ridiculous.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Boz

[kazuyette]

I have a Packard Bell IpowerGX Q006 ( that's a gateway P-7808u FX for you U.S. folks :) ) and I'm still looking for something equivalent coming from Apple at the same price ... That says it all.

Apple is just selling underpowered, overpriced stuff. How dare they come crying like a bunch of emo kids now that M$ is getting back at them ?

[soonerproud]

Hmm, I'd say you were wrong there. Any game that can be installed on a PC can also be installed and played on a Mac if you also install Windows via Boot Camp.

Not out of the box and certainly not as well as a dedicated Windows gaming box, even the cheap ones. The Mac was not even made with gaming in mind since that is not apple's niche.

[Denis W. Veteran]

Actually, most people that I encounter that use Windows are NOT satisfied with it, but use it because it is all they know.

It's probably because as the operating system used by all OEMs except one, they clutter up the OS with their own bundled crap. But is it really the OS's fault?

In the past, probably. These days, I wouldn't think so.

I can probably arrive as the same conclusion as you did, but reversing the roles. Most people I encounter are satisfied with Windows. Some even use multiple OSes.

Anyone whos primary focus is gaming should have a console, not a PC (or Mac). I happen to have all three.

I prefer to game on my PC because I can, my PC's capable of doing so, and the games I prefer happen to play better on the PC.

[Ricardo Gil]

Not out of the box and certainly not as well as a dedicated Windows gaming box, even the cheap ones.

You buy a Mac + You install Windows + You play game

vs

You build a PC + You install Windows + You play game

Define "out of the box"...

The Mac was not even made with gaming in mind since that is not apple's niche.

That is true, they're not made with gaming in mind.

[Manish]

You buy a Mac + You install Windows + You play game

vs

You build a PC + You install Windows + You play game

Define "out of the box"...

Out of the box:

You buy a Mac + You install Windows + You play game

vs

You buy a "PC" (with Windows already on) + You play game

[Ricardo Gil]

Corrected , "The Mac" i had a good chuckle at that.

I didn't know the Mac version of Windows cost an extra 200$ than the PC one. :rolleyes:

Ahh kids, what are you gonna do...

[bob21]

first of all there is no "Mac version of Windows" Vista Home Premium costs $259.95 , It costs around 60$ OEM hence the price difference.

Oh the SMUG :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;) La La La im so great because i use a PC . Cant have a SMUG free post

[Ricardo Gil]

first of all there is no "Mac version of Windows" Vista Home Premium costs $259.95 , It costs around 60$ OEM hence the price difference.

Jesus, don't you even understand sarcasm?

Oh the SMUG :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;) La La La im so great because i use a PC . Cant have a SMUG free post

Are you on LSD or something?

[bob21]

Yes somehow this is my fault that you were ignorant , i see how that works . Look at em dodge and run when they're proven wrong

Cant let a little thing like reality get in the way of that ego.

[BoDEAN]

PC using the same overpriced parts that a Mac uses ............... STILL CHEAPER than buying the overpriced Mac.

End of discussion!

[Ricardo Gil]

Yes somehow this is my fault that you were ignorant , i see how that works . Look at em dodge and run when they're proven wrong

Cant let a little thing like reality get in the way of that ego.

They? Are you wearing some kind of tinfoil hat too? Really, what's your problem, tell me, 'cause you most likely don't know me at all.

Keep playing the Windows vs Mac fan war you guys have going over here. I'm really tired of reading the same crap over and over again. It's like no thread here is immune.

I see what's going on in your head, everything Apple related looks like an opportunity to start some stupid war with someone. Well, just keep living in your distorted reality, argue all you want and be happy.

Oh btw, my ignore list says Hi (Y).

--

Posted from my awesome Windows machine.

[bob21]

And the U turn is complete..

If your going to say something here dont put everyone down and act like some all knowing god , at least have the decency to back it up instead of having a tantrum when your proven wrong.

[-Hiroshi-]

o_o' ... H'okay so, am I the only person here who loves OS X, Windows, and Linux? All three of them are awesome and have pros and cons that equate each other.. EXAMPLE TIME! :D

Leopard - Sleek, sexy, stylish, the apps have a little bit of extra shine applied to them, and the OS can satisfy my geek needs to a point with being able to access Unix commands in Terminal.

Linux - GEEKSPLOSION! Terminal, compiling my own programs from source, tweaking and editing the UI to no ends, going overboard with Compiz, tweaking the UI with Emerald..

Windows (7) - Superbar, the Aero UI, compatibility with my games and programs, GAMING for one..

And on that note, I'm off, uber-storm brewing. Enjoy your foolish little fanwar, I'll be sure to use all three OS's to the extent that I can use them, heck I might even triple boot Leopard 10.5.6, Ubuntu 9.04, and Windows 7 in some way or another. :)

[BajiRav]

You should try Powershell some time...looking at how you love CLI stuff.

[soonerproud]

You buy a Mac + You install Windows + You play game

vs

You build a PC + You install Windows + You play game

Define "out of the box"...

Most gaming pc's are not built but bought that way with Windows preloaded, so quit comparing apples and oranges. (Enthusiast who build vs most gamers that just buy from Dell/Alienware and the likes.)

So for most gamers it is goes: You buy a gaming PC and then just game.

That is true, they're not made with gaming in mind.

Which is why it is silly to even argue that Windows PC's are superior in this area. Only a person who has religious zeal for Apple would try to argue otherwise.

first of all there is no "Mac version of Windows" Vista Home Premium costs $259.95 , It costs around 60$ OEM hence the price difference.

Oh the SMUG :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;) La La La im so great because i use a PC . Cant have a SMUG free post

To be fair, Vista HP is around $90 online for a systems builders version. (OEM) But still a Mac owner paid a premium for the hardware and then adds near $100 to the already high cost of a Mac. It doesn't make any sense to even try to game on a Mac when for the same money you can just buy a PC that will kill any Mac when it comes to gaming.

[Ricardo Gil]

Most gaming pc's are not built but bought that way with Windows preloaded, so quit comparing apples and oranges. (Enthusiast who build vs most gamers that just buy from Dell/Alienware and the likes.)

So for most gamers it is goes: You buy a gaming PC and then just game.

Gamers I know (and even the whole bunch who keep bragging here about it) build their own computers. Even those who buy them have no other choice as to immediately format the PC because system builders always include that extra crap we love. That's why I believe pretty much every gamer will have to install Windows anyway.

Which is why it is silly to even argue that Windows PC's are superior in this area. Only a person who has religious zeal for Apple would try to argue otherwise.

Unfortunately it's still a common comparison.

To be fair, Vista HP is around $90 online for a systems builders version. (OEM) But still a Mac owner paid a premium for the hardware and then adds near $100 to the already high cost of a Mac. It doesn't make any sense to even try to game on a Mac when for the same money you can just buy a PC that will kill any Mac when it comes to gaming.

But that's purely from a gamer's perspective. Aside from that group, who's gonna want to run Windows on a Mac? People who work with Windows everyday, and depend on exclusive applications. Those people already have Windows. That's also where I happen to fit in.

Bob completely failed at understanding sarcasm when I pointed out his flaw, adding different costs of Windows for PC and Mac. They're the same. Actually, when we're talking about people either building a new computer or installing Windows on a Mac, both will probably have a copy already, so the cost of Windows is most likely 0 anyway.