Cleaning Up The Community

[Subject Delta]

It isn't always obvious to members how we do things and what criteria we use. If somebody said that they downloaded next weeks episode from some filesharing site then we'll warn them for advocating/endorsing piracy but if someone else says that they also watched next week's episode (without more details) then we probably won't warn them from it. Morally, they are likely equally guilty but we aren't here to enforce a moral code. We are here to ensure that Neowin is not regarded as being a haven for pirates. We are here to ensure that Neowin is not placed in a legal risk position by being able to say that we take every reasonably precaution to prevent our servers for being used for illegal purposes. Members often get bogged down into thinking that the other person did the same thing when, if fact from our perspective, they didn't. It makes more sense after you view things from our side of the field for a bit.

Not really, considering the thread that I pointed to had examples that where just as clear and obvious as the one I posted, it was just obvious to me that the moderator in question simply didn't want to admit that he was in the wrong.

There was also a thread that was raised yesterday, a thread about keyloggers. It was pointed out time and time again by various posters that keyloggers are actually not illegal, but did anyone admit to that mistake and rectify it? nope. Instead the thread appears to have been deleted.

I have to say I just get the impression that some staff members prefer to cover their mistakes up rather than admit them.

[PL_ Veteran]

What a lot of people forget is that we're only human, and yes, we do make mistakes.

I think a lot of good points have been raised in this thread, this is one of them.

Another one I'd like to point out is that as humans we don't like abuse. Being told that you're a ****muncher for raising a warning on an internet forum that you help out on in your spare time...it's not worth getting stressed out over.

Oh, and another one which got raised earlier: we don't tell anyone about other people's warnings. You don't have any way of telling who has and who hasn't been warned. Just thought I'd point it out as some people seem to think that they know someone didn't get warned.

[petrossa]

I've had only 1 zerolevel warning in all my years here,and that isn't because i only write about the weather. If one just applies the common rule of social interaction were one gives mutual respect.

If the other baits you or annoys you, you politely state your objections and if that doesn't help put them on your ignore list.

'Winning' isn't the issue. Just bow out if you can't handle the load. That's mature behavior and imo will get you the least mods.

Except when you annoy Fred with being right about AGW ofcourse :devil:

[Growled Member]

Really? Because earlier today I had two posts deleted within 30 seconds of me posting them, and fair enough the second post was a question as to why the first had been deleted, but in no way was the first post rude or breaking the rules.

And no PM, no indication of who did it or why.

That really ****es me off when one of my posts disappear with no explanation whatsoever. A quick PM would help my feelings a lot.

[Sethos]

I have a question regarding the warning system, do suspensions or the removal of post privileges reset the current 6 month warning-reduction timer or is it "only" based on your last warning and that's it?

[Colin-uk Veteran]

suspensions & posting restrictions reset the timer as they are put through the same warning system.

[Sethos]

Bleh, I was just happy for a second there believing I could be due for a warning reduction within a reasonable amount of time :laugh: Back on the ban-track I suppose :p

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

Bleh, I was just happy for a second there believing I could be due for a warning reduction within a reasonable amount of time :laugh: Back on the ban-track I suppose :p

Have you read this post by Neobond?

Seems like the warning reduction time will soon be halved.

[Sethos]

Have you read this post by Neobond?

Seems like the warning reduction time will soon be halved.

Ohh, no I haven't - That definitely sounds interesting :laugh:

Cheers for the heads up Meph (Y)

[Subject Delta]

I personally think an automatic warn reduction system should be something that is a feature of IPB, would reduce the workload for moderators of large sites a fair bit. Maybe you guys should plug this feature to them :p

[iamwhoiam]

maybe for things like copyright infringement, i think it needs some hard and fast rules... links to pirated material would be obvious, but i think it should stop at specific keywords which can be put in a search engine to bring up pirated stuff... let them get away with vague things, they arent useful for finding anything useful anyway

Then, in all honesty, that same rule needs to be applied to the front page stories as well. I've seen threads where people got warned or banned (I know 2 personally) over posting the name of a Windows 7 BETA ISO, only to turn around the very next day and have that very same information posted in a front page story.

Or mods that get involved in not so friendly discussions and then warn or ban people for the very same thing they themselves are participating in.

IMO, the staff should follow the exact same rule set that everyone else is expected to follow.

[lee31]

Well in my experience it seems to me that some moderators can't agree with what does or doesn't count as a rule breach especially when it comes to warez chat as some have already mentioned.

Having some mods telling you it's ok as long as you don't post a download link and/or talk about illegal activation/cracks/keys but then having some mods telling you that it's not ok no matter what thus getting you a warning is inconsistent and unfair and confusing to the user.

It also seems as also already mentioned that some mods think that just because you're talking about then it means you must have downloaded it illegally yourself which in many occasions simply isn't true.

It's not easy to follow the rules when some mods tell you one thing but others tell you the complete opposite.

The rules need more clarification for everyone's sake.

I have also seen many of the occasions iamwhoiam mentioned where people have been warned for things that the news writers deem ok to mention on the front page which is also inconsistent and unfair and confusing to the user.

Edited January 5, 2010 by lee26

[Fred Derf Veteran]

Then, in all honesty, that same rule needs to be applied to the front page stories as well. I've seen threads where people got warned or banned (I know 2 personally) over posting the name of a Windows 7 BETA ISO, only to turn around the very next day and have that very same information posted in a front page story.

Or mods that get involved in not so friendly discussions and then warn or ban people for the very same thing they themselves are participating in.

IMO, the staff should follow the exact same rule set that everyone else is expected to follow.

In terms of the front page, if our upper staff wish to take the risk and post something that could affect negatively Neowin then that is their prerogative. There is always going to be things that upper management can do that members or even other staffers cannot. It's their business, it is their risk. Once the upper staff give permission for something like that on the frontpage then it becomes a bit of a game changer that the moderators need to adjust to. Now, if I were warned for naming a leaked ISO before that happened (or if it still happened afterward) then I would point that out to a Supervisor. To me that would seem to be a pretty easy warning to reverse. However, you can't really blame the moderators for acting on the rules of the day before the game was changed.

On your second point, staffers should not be engaging in behaviour contrary to the Community Rules. In fact, staffs should ideally be held to an even higher standard.

Also, one doesn't get banned for a single incident like naming a Windows 7 ISO file. Anyone banned from that would have already been on their last legs from a multitude of other incidents. In which case the ban isn't about that one incident but rather due to the persons entire history on Neowin.

Well in my experience it seems to me that some moderators can't agree with what does or doesn't count as a rule breach especially when it comes to warez chat as some have already mentioned.

Having some mods telling you it's ok as long as you don't post a download link and/or talk about illegal activation/cracks/keys but then having some mods telling you that it's not ok no matter what thus getting you a warning is inconsistent and unfair and confusing to the user.

It also seems as also already mentioned that some mods think that just because you're talking about then it means you must have downloaded it illegally yourself which in many occasions simply isn't true.

It's not easy to follow the rules when some mods tell you one thing but others tell you the complete opposite.

The rules need more clarification for everyone's sake.

I have also seen many of the occasions iamwhoiam mentioned where people have been warned for things that the news writers deem ok to mention on the front page which is also inconsistent and unfair and confusing to the user.

We do have some transition of moderators. Chances are the global moderators have been around longer and Supervisors should know what they're doing. Many of these topics are discussed in the moderators section and if the staffer has been around long enough then he's probably been through at least one of these discussions. Also, all warnings are public information to the staff and new warnings are often greeted with questions from other staffers. For that matter, even thread reports often kick off lengthy staff-only discussions. Sometimes I'll report a thread that I'm not sure about just to get other moderators opinions. Moderating by committee takes too long to be the standard method of operating but it isn't an uncommon event in itself.

There was also a thread that was raised yesterday, a thread about keyloggers. It was pointed out time and time again by various posters that keyloggers are actually not illegal, but did anyone admit to that mistake and rectify it? nope. Instead the thread appears to have been deleted.

Unless you want autocratic rule, things take time.

[PM Sent]

The last time the staff discussed keyloggers it probably related to attempts to hack other computers rather than the use on one's own computer.

[Asdfgav]

Threads like this are the exact reason Neowins seeing a decline in statistics (IMO of course).

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Threads like this are the exact reason Neowins seeing a decline in statistics (IMO of course).

Totally disagree, yes some pople ruin topics/chances like this, but it gives the community a chance to sit around a "virtual conference room", with let's say 600 seats or something :p Members get to interact with the higher ups more than they may usually.

Only some spoil the debates/ideas/discussions that go on in topics like this and quite frankly as a new member I'd be encouraged to see that a board obviously cares enough about it's community to make a topic like this open, and not just a 1 post lock, no feedback, people banned for disagreeing/etc.

[Lord Ba'al]

I will look into getting the period changed to 3 months instead of 6 due to the increased strictness of moderation that will be applied.

That sounds like a good idea.

It still bothers me that none of you are prepared to address the issue of how unevenly some of these rules are applied, even though several examples have been given.

I personally get the vibe of "just stop being naughty and do what you are told". Its a shame really because I enjoy posting here, we have some good members.

Yes, you should look into that.

[Simon Veteran]

I will look into getting the period changed to 3 months instead of 6 due to the increased strictness of moderation that will be applied.

If you ask me, the better thing to do would be to reduce everyone's warning by 20% now. People at 100% go down to 80% and are on their last leg, everyone else gets a few chances. I can't see a situation where anyone would make a "mistake" resulting in a warning 5 times. I've said some controversial things on this site as a member, a staff member, and a vet, but I know not to step over the line.

[TrueMonolith]

If you ask me, the better thing to do would be to reduce everyone's warning by 20% now. People at 100% go down to 80% and are on their last leg, everyone else gets a few chances. I can't see a situation where anyone would make a "mistake" resulting in a warning 5 times. I've said some controversial things on this site as a member, a staff member, and a vet, but I know not to step over the line.

did you say that windows sucked?

[+Gary7 Subscriber²]

With the release of Atlas just wipe everyone's slate clean and let everyone start over.

[Frogboy Administrators]

Another one I'd like to point out is that as humans we don't like abuse. Being told that you're a ****muncher for raising a warning on an internet forum that you help out on in your spare time...it's not worth getting stressed out over.

I agree. Your point can't be stressed enough.

I'm notoriously quick with the ban hammer precisely because of that very point.

It still bothers me that none of you are prepared to address the issue of how unevenly some of these rules are applied, even though several examples have been given.

I personally get the vibe of "just stop being naughty and do what you are told". Its a shame really because I enjoy posting here, we have some good members.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

Don't worry too much about what others are doing. It's like complaining to the cop that other people were speeding too.

[Subject Delta]

Perfect is the enemy of good.

Don't worry too much about what others are doing. It's like complaining to the cop that other people were speeding too.

You make some good PR statements, but I have yet to see anything of any substance at all from you, do you actually think that it is wrong to expect people to try and moderate fairly and evenly.?

[CrashG]

Threads like this are the exact reason Neowins seeing a decline in statistics (IMO of course).

Totally disagree, yes some pople ruin topics/chances like this, but it gives the community a chance to sit around a "virtual conference room", with let's say 600 seats or something :p Members get to interact with the higher ups more than they may usually.

Only some spoil the debates/ideas/discussions that go on in topics like this and quite frankly as a new member I'd be encouraged to see that a board obviously cares enough about it's community to make a topic like this open, and not just a 1 post lock, no feedback, people banned for disagreeing/etc.

I think AB's post summed it up pretty good, but I'll add to it a little.

Since most of us "regular" members make up a majority of the users here, it's nice to be able to give some feedback to the higher ups that without topics like these, wouldn't be as easy to do.

Just my 2cents, your view may differ and that's OK. :yes:

[Steven P. Administrators]

I personally think an automatic warn reduction system should be something that is a feature of IPB, would reduce the workload for moderators of large sites a fair bit. Maybe you guys should plug this feature to them :p

We "plugged" most of our custom hacks to Invision Power Services for the first 2 years we started using this board in place of vBulletin (from 2003), but we got fed up of our suggestions not being taken into consideration and totally stopped giving ideas when some of our "features" ended up in IPB without any credit what-so-ever. Thats a discussion for another day though. We also had a lot of good come out of working with IPB.

And Frank, as far as "blanket moderation" goes.. I think we can agree that it would be grossly unfair to ban someone who has been here for years and has a "bad week" over someone who has just walked through the door and immediately starts causing trouble. After 9 years of doing this and seeing how different staff moderate, it's simply impossible to adhere to a "bible set" of rules and moderation consequences.

I suppose you'd have to have experience to know/understand what I mean.

As I mentioned above, we've applied custom hacks to make the moderators jobs a lot easier, but all this means a much longer turnaround for us to upgrade.

[Memphis]

If rules like this are going to be applied, it would also be fair for the warning system itself to be made a bit fairer, it is too easy on here to get warned for stupid things. I am interested to hear how banning and restricting members is meant to increase stats :/

Sorry it is not easy to get warned on here or I would have a higher than a 0% warn by now.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Fred Derf
repaired quote tags

[Vice]

We "plugged" most of our custom hacks to Invision Power Services for the first 2 years we started using this board in place of vBulletin (from 2003), but we got fed up of our suggestions not being taken into consideration and totally stopped giving ideas

That is how I feel here at Neowin :)