Engadget posts in depth preview of Windows Phone 7

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Grand Master

George P Global Moderator

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I have heard the same thing from Microsoft too, but I'm not buying it (yet). Sprint, at least, has made no intention of offering updates to any phone they sell without their approval. If they manage to get this deal ironed out with Sprint that would be nice, but they need to be very clear with consumers that they have this agreement with Sprint.

Most carriers are just as restrictive as Sprint. The only phone I know of that gets updates at their pleasure is the iPhone, but that is due to their tight contract with AT&T. Not to forget that even Apple has serious discussions with AT&T as they have released iPhone features that weren't allowed to work on AT&T until approval (like MMS and Tethering, at least)...

So I HIGHLY doubt Microsoft will be able to release anything they want at anytime they want. If they pulled that the carriers would just skip selling the phones period. It isn't like they have a shortage of smartphones to offer consumers and Microsoft has NO brand loyalty to tout to these carriers either...

Of course the carriers want to sell you a new phone with a newer OS so they hold off on updates but MS can work around that by using the Zune software on your PC. In the end when you sync with the Zune software (which you will end up doing anywyas to get files on it and so on), they can push out updates to it through that and not over the carriers network. Easy as pie, and no way the carriers can say anything about it, even Sprint.

Grand Master

+LogicalApex MVC

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Of course the carriers want to sell you a new phone with a newer OS so they hold off on updates but MS can work around that by using the Zune software on your PC. In the end when you sync with the Zune software (which you will end up doing anywyas to get files on it and so on), they can push out updates to it through that and not over the carriers network. Easy as pie, and no way the carriers can say anything about it, even Sprint.

But they Carriers always get the final say... They can decide to not carry a Windows Phone 7 handset at all. Without that deep carrier subsidy that would kill any major sales numbers.

Grand Master

thealexweb

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Paul Thurrott on the other hand calls it the best smartphone OS out there: http://www.winsupers...wp7_handson.asp

I'm not a huge fan of the UI, it seems painful to use at times.

Yeh but he's about as pro-Microsoft as you can get so he's always gonna be bias. Endgadget on the hand is owned by AOL so it will be neutral.

Grand Master

George P Global Moderator

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Yeh but he's about as pro-Microsoft as you can get so he's always gonna be bias. Endgadget on the hand is owned by AOL so it will be neutral.

As bias as everyone calls Paul he has and has been using an iPhone for the past year or more from what I remember. And he does point out the fact that WP7 does lack things, but he's looking at it from a non-techie/power user stance and more as a normal/average phone buyer who doesn't care if the phone doesn't have C/P support out of the box or even "true" multitasking.

That's some 99% of the world out there you know. If the tech geeks like us who post on tech sites like this could support a market on our own then Palm wouldn't have died and webOS now owned by HP. Consumer devices have to target the broader market of normal people and not the minority or niche geek first in order to sell something.

Grand Master

+LogicalApex MVC

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As bias as everyone calls Paul he has and has been using an iPhone for the past year or more from what I remember. And he does point out the fact that WP7 does lack things, but he's looking at it from a non-techie/power user stance and more as a normal/average phone buyer who doesn't care if the phone doesn't have C/P support out of the box or even "true" multitasking.

That's some 99% of the world out there you know. If the tech geeks like us who post on tech sites like this could support a market on our own then Palm wouldn't have died and webOS now owned by HP. Consumer devices have to target the broader market of normal people and not the minority or niche geek first in order to sell something.

Average appeal is very important... The biggest thing WP7 lacks for that average market is a "wow" factor. The average consumer won't find anything that just amazes them with WP7 and that is a MAJOR problem.

The tech geeks like us get all excited about specs and raw features, but the average world loves ease of use and "wow" (beautiful eye catching design and transitions)...

Mentor

zagor

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Yeh but he's about as pro-Microsoft as you can get so he's always gonna be bias. Endgadget on the hand is owned by AOL so it will be neutral.

first of all, it doesn't matter who owns engadget. the bias is entirely related to the personal choices of the people who do the review.

On the other hand, I'd say engadget's review was more balanced. But this has nothing to do with AOL.

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zagor

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So let's average them out and we get "it's okay, but nothing too exciting."

sounds like it. In essence, all of these reviews have some common complaints: copy&paste, multitasking. If by some miracle and good decision making, MS includes these two features at launch, they will win the hearts and minds of the blogsphere.

Rising Star

Bengal34

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sounds like it. In essence, all of these reviews have some common complaints: copy&paste, multitasking. If by some miracle and good decision making, MS includes these two features at launch, they will win the hearts and minds of the blogsphere.

Copy and paste won't be there at launch, but they are adding it. Their answer to multitasking is "okay" for now but they need to open up some APIs to allow specific app types to run in the background such as IM, music, etc before the OS gets a year old. Preferrably by the sixth month mark. I can get that they want to limit it to preserve battery life and keep the devices snappy. It may not be something power users will be happy about but MS needs to target more of the average consumer market. There's more of them.

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Petvas

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Paul Thurrott on the other hand calls it the best smartphone OS out there: http://www.winsupers...wp7_handson.asp

I'm not a huge fan of the UI, it seems painful to use at times.

I am sorry to say this but what do you expect to hear from someone who is writing a book about it? I believe that what Thurrot is saying might be proven right in two to three years from now, if the necessary updates come, but at the moment there is no justification for his opinion. I can understand if someone is fond of the Metro UI and has bought the idea of it. What I don't get is how can someone ignore the many things that are missing it. For those of you who say that will wait for the final build I can tell you that there are going to be no changes to the OS, maybe only some bug fixes.

Having read Engadget's preview I have to say that I agree 100%. WP7 at it's current incarnation offers:

  • A not that good Internet Browser, compared to Safari or Android standard browser
  • The Zune experience is good but not up to the standards of the iPod, but certainly better than Android
  • Good Exchange support but not perfect. Even Windows Mobile 6.5 has better support (apart from multiple Exchange accounts)
  • No way to organize installed apps in folders
  • No way to search for an app
  • No way to use Google Maps as the default Map app. Bing isn't that good as Google Maps..at least not yet
  • No Youtube app! Are they nuts?
  • Copy Paste is missing...
  • No multitasking. It is funny because when Microsoft presented Windows Phone to the world, they showed an ad who was saying: tired of going in and out? Ha...yes I am tired of doing that, so I cant recommend a windows phone!

I will reexamine Microsoft's offering in two to three years...

Grand Master

Ayepecks

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I am sorry to say this but what do you expect to hear from someone who is writing a book about it? I believe that what Thurrot is saying might be proven right in two to three years from now, if the necessary updates come, but at the moment there is no justification for his opinion. I can understand if someone is fond of the Metro UI and has bought the idea of it. What I don't get is how can someone ignore the many things that are missing it. For those of you who say that will wait for the final build I can tell you that there are going to be no changes to the OS, maybe only some bug fixes.

Having read Engadget's preview I have to say that I agree 100%. WP7 at it's current incarnation offers:

  • A not that good Internet Browser, compared to Safari or Android standard browser
  • The Zune experience is good but not up to the standards of the iPod, but certainly better than Android
  • Good Exchange support but not perfect. Even Windows Mobile 6.5 has better support (apart from multiple Exchange accounts)
  • No way to organize installed apps in folders
  • No way to search for an app
  • No way to use Google Maps as the default Map app. Bing isn't that good as Google Maps..at least not yet
  • No Youtube app! Are they nuts?
  • Copy Paste is missing...
  • No multitasking. It is funny because when Microsoft presented Windows Phone to the world, they showed an ad who was saying: tired of going in and out? Ha...yes I am tired of doing that, so I cant recommend a windows phone!

I will reexamine Microsoft's offering in two to three years...

I agree with you on a few things, but I REALLY disagree with you on others:

- It's based on the desktop version of Internet Explorer, not the previous mobile version. That's major kudos as most every Web site works with that, but I agree it needs more HTML5 compliance.

- I couldn't disagree with you more about the Zune experience not living up to the iPod experience. Why do you say it doesn't?

- Most of the reviews are praising the Exchange support, and even say it easily trumps the iPhone's and Android's offerings.

- If you go to the side menu, you see an alphabetical list of apps. But I do agree they need a search feature for it.

Copy and paste is a big deal, as it multitasking. All the rest I expect are either personal preference or will be rectified very soon, if it isn't already fixed before the release. They're definitely behind iOS at the moment, though, which is rather disappointing.

Edit: Also, Gizmodo has a preview -- http://gizmodo.com/5590327/windows-phone-7-in-depth-a-fresh-start

Experienced

andrewbares

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Average appeal is very important... The biggest thing WP7 lacks for that average market is a "wow" factor. The average consumer won't find anything that just amazes them with WP7 and that is a MAJOR problem.

The tech geeks like us get all excited about specs and raw features, but the average world loves ease of use and "wow" (beautiful eye catching design and transitions)...

Umm you just proved that WP7 WILL be a success with the average customer...

"the average world loves ease of use and "wow" (beautiful eye catching design and transitions)"

That describes WP7 perfectly. So by your logic, WP7 will be a huge success. WP7 has the most polished transitions out of any other OS, and the design is definitely eye catching compared to the other operating systems. And it focuses on ease of use, not power users.

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Petvas

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I agree with you on a few things, but I REALLY disagree with you on others:

- It's based on the desktop version of Internet Explorer, not the previous mobile version. That's major kudos as most every Web site works with that, but I agree it needs more HTML5 compliance.

- I couldn't disagree with you more about the Zune experience not living up to the iPod experience. Why do you say it doesn't?

- Most of the reviews are praising the Exchange support, and even say it easily trumps the iPhone's and Android's offerings.

- If you go to the side menu, you see an alphabetical list of apps. But I do agree they need a search feature for it.

Copy and paste is a big deal, as it multitasking. All the rest I expect are either personal preference or will be rectified very soon, if it isn't already fixed before the release. They're definitely behind iOS at the moment, though, which is rather disappointing.

Edit: Also, Gizmodo has a preview -- http://gizmodo.com/5590327/windows-phone-7-in-depth-a-fresh-start

Of course IE is based on the desktop version but I can tell you it is not as good as Safari or any other Webkit based browser (Android and WebOS). things that are currently missing regarding the Exchange support:

  • Categories
  • Ability to search the server. This is a big issue.
  • No task support
  • No support for Exchange Server policies. Only stuff regarding password length and time-out values for locking the device are supported...

Windows Mobile 6.5 offered complete support for Exchange. Considering that Exchange is a Microsoft product, I find the current support status ridiculous...

Experienced

andrewbares

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Of course IE is based on the desktop version but I can tell you it is not as good as Safari or any other Webkit based browser (Android and WebOS). things that are currently missing regarding the Exchange support:

  • Categories
  • Ability to search the server. This is a big issue.
  • No task support
  • No support for Exchange Server policies. Only stuff regarding password length and time-out values for locking the device are supported...

Windows Mobile 6.5 offered complete support for Exchange. Considering that Exchange is a Microsoft product, I find the current support status ridiculous...

And you're basing this off of an uncomplete version of the OS. Congrats.

What are you talking about for "categories"? You mean groups of applications or something? That's what the Hubs are, if you've been following anything. It's even BETTER than having a folder of applications, since it combines everything into one stream, it creates a synergy of your apps information.

Grand Master

Ayepecks

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Of course IE is based on the desktop version but I can tell you it is not as good as Safari or any other Webkit based browser (Android and WebOS). things that are currently missing regarding the Exchange support:

  • Categories
  • Ability to search the server. This is a big issue.
  • No task support
  • No support for Exchange Server policies. Only stuff regarding password length and time-out values for locking the device are supported...

Windows Mobile 6.5 offered complete support for Exchange. Considering that Exchange is a Microsoft product, I find the current support status ridiculous...

No, it's not as good as the desktop versions of those browsers. But the mobile versions of those browsers aren't as good as their desktop counterparts. So I'd say that with the exception of HTML5, Internet Explorer is just as good as Webkit.

As far as the Exchange support goes, it's still better than the other mobile offerings out there, you don't seem to be refuting that point. And I'd be surprised if the things you mentioned weren't resolved in time, or possibly before release.

Also: you never really addressed what your issue was with Zune versus iPod.

Grand Master

George P Global Moderator

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The point about the version of IE used with WP7 (at this point anyways) is that having it based on desktop IE7 and some of IE8 means it works with almost every site out there, because devs have already coded for trident and it just works. People need to get off of this webkit high, really, when IE9 is done and out then the mobile team can make a version for WP using that engine but since it's not done they can't go with it, it just makes sense.

Again, this isn't 100% done, and there's still a good month left of work to do at best before they sign off on it for RTM. Any little things will come in updates, for free, so I don't see the real problem. It's like getting a early Android 1.5 phone, how much things did that lack, and how poor was it compared to 2.0+?

You have to draw a line somewhere, release a product so you can make some sales and get money, then fill in the gaps with updates and the next big version. This is a business, and no piece of software starting from scratch comes out with "everything" from the get go. And yes, this is a new OS starting from scratch (only the core kernel which is CE isn't that new), it's probably close to 2 years into development.

Rising Star

Bengal34

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The point about the version of IE used with WP7 (at this point anyways) is that having it based on desktop IE7 and some of IE8 means it works with almost every site out there, because devs have already coded for trident and it just works. People need to get off of this webkit high, really, when IE9 is done and out then the mobile team can make a version for WP using that engine but since it's not done they can't go with it, it just makes sense.

Again, this isn't 100% done, and there's still a good month left of work to do at best before they sign off on it for RTM. Any little things will come in updates, for free, so I don't see the real problem. It's like getting a early Android 1.5 phone, how much things did that lack, and how poor was it compared to 2.0+?

You have to draw a line somewhere, release a product so you can make some sales and get money, then fill in the gaps with updates and the next big version. This is a business, and no piece of software starting from scratch comes out with "everything" from the get go. And yes, this is a new OS starting from scratch (only the core kernel which is CE isn't that new), it's probably close to 2 years into development.

it's supposed to be using the JS engine from IE9 but the current rendering engine from 7/8. As for the CE base. They couldn't do what they wanted using the CE6 kernel so they did some rework on the kernel itself (the new kernel is versin 7).

I keep hearing people beat the dead horse with copy and paste... it's coming. Flash is coming too, and it uses a slimed down form of multitasking. Yes the third party apps don't run in the background but you don't have to close out the apps. They hold your state and you can return to what you were doing later. So you can pause a game to send a text or a phone call and go back to it.

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Petvas

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And you're basing this off of an uncomplete version of the OS. Congrats.

What are you talking about for "categories"? You mean groups of applications or something? That's what the Hubs are, if you've been following anything. It's even BETTER than having a folder of applications, since it combines everything into one stream, it creates a synergy of your apps information.

You really don't know what Exchange categories are, do you? Anyway, an Exchange user can assign one or more categories to an item. These categories are saved in the user's mailbox. I could have for example a business category, a private, one for sports, etc...this info is being synchronized on Windows Mobile devices but not on Windows Phone. Of course it will eventually come, but after the initial release.

I work very close to Microsoft and I know that nothing will change till release, NOTHING. Please don't imply that I am jumping to conclusions, because I don't! I am sure that the second version of the OS will be much better, the only problem is that the mobile space has many more players than before and I am not sure if Microsoft will be successful with Windows Phone.

Grand Master

BajiRav

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This interview makes me feel that some of the features that WP7 is currently lacking might make a comeback by the time it launches.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/19/exclusive-interview-with-joe-belfiore-corporate-vp-of-windows-p/

I hope they do and pull another of those "yes we do 1080p as well" that they did near PS3's launch.

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Petvas

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Umm you just proved that WP7 WILL be a success with the average customer...

"the average world loves ease of use and "wow" (beautiful eye catching design and transitions)"

That describes WP7 perfectly. So by your logic, WP7 will be a huge success. WP7 has the most polished transitions out of any other OS, and the design is definitely eye catching compared to the other operating systems. And it focuses on ease of use, not power users.

I am not so sure about that. Even the average consumer wants Youtube access, but even that isn't there. How difficult was it for Microsoft to make a Youtube Client?

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