Engadget posts in depth preview of Windows Phone 7

[George P Global Moderator]

The difference between C&P not being in iPhone 1 and it not being in WP7 at the start, for me, is that MS will probably add it quicket than Apples 3 year wait. And I'm fine with that, I'll take a phone that's mostly done and does what I want now and get C&P and other things in a future update than wait for another 6 months to a year so all the whinny geeks who care enough can get these features from day one. WP7 has a very nice and MS controlled update system in place, one that can work without the carriers networks (on of the options in the update settings section at this point is the use of your carriers network for updates or not), through the Zune PC software. With control back in MS's hands i expect timely and good quality updates, none of these HTC **** poor video driver stuff since any carrier oand OEM updates have to go through MS first as well.

If MS adds C&P support and a few other thngs 4 months after release is that such a bad thing really? I doubt the vast majority of the general phone buying public out there would even notice the change.

[jakem1]

Orealy? That article wrote by Joshua Topolsky, a well know hardcore Apple fanboy in the blogspheres.

The same person who shut down the comment section of Engadget because people were making negative comments about Apple.

Yes, Engadget have a history of Apple fanboyism but I think they've calmed down quite a bit since that shut down incident. Unlike Petvas, I thought the Engadget review was generally positive and at some points extremely positive. Sure, they highlighted the fact that it's missing C&P and multitasking and they were unhappy with some other small things like the way Facebook contact appear in the People tab but this was basically a positive review. Also, in the interview that they posted later in the day Topolsky seemed to be quite excited by WP7.

There are a few people here at Neowin who would obviously prefer to see Microsoft fail and are happy to spin this review in a negative light.

[Cereal Bawks]

You know, when Apple didn't have Copy and Paste in their OS until v3.0, everyone gave them crap for it and said it was the MOST basic feature missing. Now when WP7 does not have it, no one uses it?

Vocal minority and all that. I'm not says no one at all used it. But generic consumers, like for instance friends of mine or my coworkers sure as hell aren't using it, and as such definitely not missing it.

[BajiRav]

Yes, Engadget have a history of Apple fanboyism but I think they've calmed down quite a bit since that shut down incident. Unlike Petvas, I thought the Engadget review was generally positive and at some points extremely positive. Sure, they highlighted the fact that it's missing C&P and multitasking and they were unhappy with some other small things like the way Facebook contact appear in the People tab but this was basically a positive review. Also, in the interview that they posted later in the day Topolsky seemed to be quite excited by WP7.

There are a few people here at Neowin who would obviously prefer to see Microsoft fail and are happy to spin this review in a negative light.

yea, I think almost all reviews are pretty positive (except for BGR?). It seems C&P and lack of multi-tasking are only valid and common complaints among them. Engadget's point about facebook contacts is pretty valid and I think it won't much hard for them to add a filter for that - it's not too late, yet!

[Bengal34]

You know, when Apple didn't have Copy and Paste in their OS until v3.0, everyone gave them crap for it and said it was the MOST basic feature missing. Now when WP7 does not have it, no one uses it?

Maybe because they acknowledged that they lacked a feature people wanted and announced that they will be adding it shortly after launch. Plus, the smart linking feature will encompass pretty much everything I would need it for. Although, I would prefer to have both it wouldn't be so bad to wait a few months before they get a good implementation down.

[jakem1]

You know, when Apple didn't have Copy and Paste in their OS until v3.0, everyone gave them crap for it and said it was the MOST basic feature missing. Now when WP7 does not have it, no one uses it?

Who is this "everyone" you're referring to because everyone I know that criticised Apple for leaving out copy and paste and multitasking is levelling the same criticisms at MS. However, I now notice that all those blogs that were happy to give Apple a free pass on their omissions (Engadget, Gizmodo, all the Apple blogs, etc.) have suddenly decided that it's a mortal sin for Microsoft to leave this functionality out. That's despite the fact that Microsoft have committed to adding copy & paste shortly after release and have admitted that they are currently working on multitasking and intend to add that as soon as possible as well.

Yeah, it's irritating that these things won't be available from day 1 and they may well be show-stoppers for a lot of people but that's not nearly as bad as the hypocrisy from the Apple fanboys.

[Southern Patriot]

Yeah, it's irritating that these things won't be available from day 1 and they may well be show-stoppers for a lot of people but that's not nearly as bad as the hypocrisy from the Apple fanboys.

The hypocrisy seems to be on the Microsoft fanboy side around here this time since they are the ones saying "oh, C/P and multitasking are coming" and "it's not that important" when they were among the first to bash Apple for not having those features from the start in the iPhone.

Remember, Apple was essentially starting from a clean slate when they designed the iPhone OS, but Microsoft is building on their long-running Windows CE platform that has had both of those features from the start. There is very little room for excuses for WP7 to not have them.

[Mr. Gibs]

The hypocrisy seems to be on the Microsoft fanboy side around here this time since they are the ones saying "oh, C/P and multitasking are coming" and "it's not that important" when they were among the first to bash Apple for not having those features from the start in the iPhone.

I think most people on this board, as well as several others, are disappointed that C/P and multitasking aren't included from the get go. However, we still do think the product will sell even without those (the iPhone did for one).

Also, MS has promised that those features will be added relatively soon. Apple did no such thing and users had to wait 2-3 years to get them.

[jakem1]

The hypocrisy seems to be on the Microsoft fanboy side around here this time since they are the ones saying "oh, C/P and multitasking are coming" and "it's not that important" when they were among the first to bash Apple for not having those features from the start in the iPhone.

Remember, Apple was essentially starting from a clean slate when they designed the iPhone OS, but Microsoft is building on their long-running Windows CE platform that has had both of those features from the start. There is very little room for excuses for WP7 to not have them.

Is that right? I suggest you spend some time at sites dedicated to Windows Mobile in that case because there are very few people there who are happy that these features aren't going to be included in WP7. Those are the people who spent the most time laughing at Apple as it took years to turn it's featurephone into a real smartphone and they're quite bitter about the way MS is approaching WP7's feature set. Check out sites like WMPowerUser or Windows Phone Thoughts and you'll see what Windows Mobile fans really think of all this.

How many people do you think will be supporting Microsoft's approach on sites like MacRumours? Like Engadget and Gizmodo, they're all claiming that Microsoft will fail because copy & paste or multitasking are essential in a smartphone and not one of them will think twice about how ridiculous they sound.

[Omen1393]

Well I just went through the first session of Microsoft's online class on Windows Phone developers and there were 970 users in the meeting. Not everyone could make it and they had to close the registration process because too many people registered but 970 potential developers is certainly a good sign that there will be at least 1,000 apps on launch with WP7.

[M_Lyons10]

Unlike other companies MS has the dollars to play the long-game. This is the same sort of strat we saw for xbox and what I suspect we will see with WP.

I know this post is a little old, but I just had to say that I agree. I fully expect Microsoft to put a lot of weight behind WP7 and expects a long term strategy (Which is also why I fully expect regular and incremental updates)... This proved successful with the XBox and I think in the end will do the same for WP7. The XBox is really the best comparison I think.

[M_Lyons10]

Actually, I was just wondering about something with WP7 and was wondering if anyone knew how this is handled. When you set up your phone I imagine you set up your Facebook connection and everything. Does it download all of your contacts from Facebook, or can you filter these out? If I don't call them, I really don't want them on my phone...

[+LogicalApex MVC]

Well I just went through the first session of Microsoft's online class on Windows Phone developers and there were 970 users in the meeting. Not everyone could make it and they had to close the registration process because too many people registered but 970 potential developers is certainly a good sign that there will be at least 1,000 apps on launch with WP7.

I went through it as well and I don't think that alone is enough to gauge applications from. I think many developers attending were like me, wondering how well this platform will fare...

I'm working on one app for it at the moment, but I won't be developing very intense stuff until I see what happens post launch.

[Ayepecks]

Calm down here. You were the one who insulted me first by saying that I am not talking seriously. I guess you haven't read my posts, wherre I delivered arguments for all points I made. I didn't see your questions. If you mean why I believe that the iPod experience is better than using a Zune, then I have following points to make:

• Having used a Zune HD for quite. While I found its performance to be good but not on par with an iPod Touch
  
• The music player itself is good but the rating system sucks big time. I prefer using the star system...
  
• I found that the Zune desktop client to not handle dynamic playlists well. Sometimes it doesn't update them, or even worse, it just doesn't find any songs that should actually belong to the playlist, according to he criteria I specified.
  
• I find the Zune Marketplace to be missing on content, compared to the iTunes of course.
  
• Overall the Zune experience is the second best available and I am sure that Microsoft is trying to close the gap.
  

The most important aspect of any media player is media playback -- wouldn't you agree? Well, can you tell me why every iPod (and iPhone) since the second generation iPod has had absolutely crap sound quality? You'd think a company of Apple's stature would be able to maintain a pretty good reputation for that, but in reviews the sound quality has almost always been considered sub-standard. The Zune, on the other hand, has never had issues with sound quality in reviews that I'm aware of. That alone is a leg up in my book.

In terms of codec support, the Zune again easily surpasses the iPod/iPhone in every way imaginable. The iPod/iPhone has some of the worst codec support on the market for any major brand-name media playback device. The Zune, on the other hand, has native codec support, both in terms of hardware and the desktop software. No codec downloading required for a great deal of media formats that can all be played right out of the box.

I fully admit that the appearance of the Zune software versus the appearance of the iTunes and iOS software is completely different depending on the user, but I don't think either one is particularly better off one way or the other. They both have some unique viewing options (I really enjoy the three-paned view on the Zune software, but I really like the preferences iTunes has), and each has some features that make them easier to use than the other at times.

As far as the marketplace goes, that's definitely Apple's ace in the whole. But don't forget that Microsoft has something Apple doesn't -- the Zune pass, which is indeed a really big deal. Having the ability to stream music to your device (while being given a 10-song quota per month, all for $12) is a pretty good deal, and I'm honestly surprised Apple's done nothing to combat it yet.

As far as the multimedia efforts go, I'd say that despite it's commercial success, it's Apple who really needs to play catchup. Their major advantage at the beginning was a unique interface, an advantage that now really no longer exists due to the abundance of touchscreen devices (and the lack of a need for the jog dial anymore). Now, Apple's biggest advantage is the marketplace. Only it's the app marketplace that is the biggest advantage now instead of the actual media marketplace. Don't get me wrong, Apple's media marketplace is second to none, and for good reason. But it's not as leaps and bounds over the competition as it was fairly recently.

[Cereal Bawks]

Remember, Apple was essentially starting from a clean slate when they designed the iPhone OS, but Microsoft is building on their long-running Windows CE platform that has had both of those features from the start. There is very little room for excuses for WP7 to not have them.

It is built on the WinCE kernel. The kernel's involvement in or responsibility of copypasta is exactly squat. It lies in the UI framework, which is brand new.

And for that matter, it would have to be implemented twice, because the system UI uses a different native code framework, while third party applications will be working with a Silverlight-based parallel reimplementation.

[Petvas]

The most important aspect of any media player is media playback -- wouldn't you agree? Well, can you tell me why every iPod (and iPhone) since the second generation iPod has had absolutely crap sound quality? You'd think a company of Apple's stature would be able to maintain a pretty good reputation for that, but in reviews the sound quality has almost always been considered sub-standard. The Zune, on the other hand, has never had issues with sound quality in reviews that I'm aware of. That alone is a leg up in my book.

In terms of codec support, the Zune again easily surpasses the iPod/iPhone in every way imaginable. The iPod/iPhone has some of the worst codec support on the market for any major brand-name media playback device. The Zune, on the other hand, has native codec support, both in terms of hardware and the desktop software. No codec downloading required for a great deal of media formats that can all be played right out of the box.

I fully admit that the appearance of the Zune software versus the appearance of the iTunes and iOS software is completely different depending on the user, but I don't think either one is particularly better off one way or the other. They both have some unique viewing options (I really enjoy the three-paned view on the Zune software, but I really like the preferences iTunes has), and each has some features that make them easier to use than the other at times.

As far as the marketplace goes, that's definitely Apple's ace in the whole. But don't forget that Microsoft has something Apple doesn't -- the Zune pass, which is indeed a really big deal. Having the ability to stream music to your device (while being given a 10-song quota per month, all for $12) is a pretty good deal, and I'm honestly surprised Apple's done nothing to combat it yet.

As far as the multimedia efforts go, I'd say that despite it's commercial success, it's Apple who really needs to play catchup. Their major advantage at the beginning was a unique interface, an advantage that now really no longer exists due to the abundance of touchscreen devices (and the lack of a need for the jog dial anymore). Now, Apple's biggest advantage is the marketplace. Only it's the app marketplace that is the biggest advantage now instead of the actual media marketplace. Don't get me wrong, Apple's media marketplace is second to none, and for good reason. But it's not as leaps and bounds over the competition as it was fairly recently.

I agree for the most part of the things you wrote, the thing with Apple is that they just offer something that does exactly what the majority of people want, and it does it very well. The sound quality gets much better if you invest on good earbuds.

Codec support on Apple devices is far from perfect, but again, it does't matter. They handle mp4 excellent and that is for 90% of the world sufficient enough. Of course they could support more codecs, but I wouldn't say that I miss any functionality.

Overall I would say that Apple still has the edge, combined with state of the art devices (which are of course far from perfect but compared to everything else they are better...).

The Zune Pass is surely a big deal for those who want to listen to new music and it was a nice idea from Microsoft.

[hdood]

It is built on the WinCE kernel. The kernel's involvement in or responsibility of copypasta is exactly squat.

It is not just the Windows CE kernel, it is the entire Windows CE operating system, which includes clipboard support. You make it sound like CE is some ancient discontinued product that has little to do with WP7, when in reality WP7 is pretty much just CE with a phone-specific UI, apps, and drivers. Same as with previous versions of Windows Mobile.

It lies in the UI framework, which is brand new.

The .NET Compact Framework and Silverlight are not brand new. Now, Silverlight has been adapted somewhat for Windows CE, but it's not new.

And for that matter, it would have to be implemented twice, because the system UI uses a different native code framework, while third party applications will be working with a Silverlight-based parallel reimplementation.

Don't exaggerate. Windows CE has clipboard support, as does .NET. They work fine together. The .NET framework simply calls the native clipboard API, in the same way it calls native APIs to do pretty much anything else. Microsoft could easily support C&P on WP7 if they wanted to and considered it a priority. Also, I suspect the system UI actually is in Silverlight (which is now the primary UI framework on Windows CE.)

[Cereal Bawks]

Don't exaggerate. Windows CE has clipboard support, as does .NET. They work fine together. The .NET framework simply calls the native clipboard API, in the same way it calls native APIs to do pretty much anything else. Microsoft could easily support C&P on WP7 if they wanted to and considered it a priority. Also, I suspect the system UI actually is in Silverlight (which is now the primary UI framework on Windows CE.)

That all implies that there are the old Windows Mobile equivalents of USER32 and GDI in use, which there are not. And clipboard API support is just the storage part of it. You know, an actual user interface implementation is needed, i.e. selecting text on inaccurate small diagonale touchscreen devices. Obviously, it's almost done, or else Microsoft wouldn't be throwing around stuff like "Shortly after general availability" as release date for it. They're probably not just satisfied with its current implementation, and/or need to hit their deadline.

And the system UI is not Silverlight. XDA has torn the Mondrian images apart. The base system is all native ARMv7 code.

edit: I've just downloaded it myself and took a look at it. And it IS all native code. That and the system UI framework is that mysterious Iris UIX framework already used with the Zune and Zune desktop software. Since latter can do copypasta, I give you that. Still framework capability doesn't automagically introduce the UI interaction for it.

[George P Global Moderator]

Since you bring up the difference between the codes and what devs have to work with, since the version of silverlight for WP7 is v4 which added clipboard support, even if MS does add it to WP7 2 or w/e months after RTM wouldn't the Silverlight version used for apps and even the apps themselfs need to be updated if they wanted to use C&P?

I don't mind either way, for me it's still going to be a phone and not a mini-PC in my pocket, so I can wait it out for future updates.

[Cereal Bawks]

Apparently there's an update mechanism in place, that can update a majority of system components independently from any carrier or manufacturer. I figure that one comes into play, which would then update the system with a newer Silverlight runtime. Standard text boxes would probably gain copypasta immediately, maybe text blocks optionally, anything beyond that lies in the responsibility of the third party app developer. Custom text controls don't automatically gain text selection.

[azz0r_wugg]

Did we read the same review? There impressions werent highly negative at all, it was mainly positive.

[Petvas]

Did we read the same review? There impressions werent highly negative at all, it was mainly positive.

Actually you are right. Engadget was only a bit disappointed because of the lack of Copy & Paste and Multitasking. i also listened to their latest podcast and they were praising the UI all the time.

[Omen1393]

Since you bring up the difference between the codes and what devs have to work with, since the version of silverlight for WP7 is v4 which added clipboard support, even if MS does add it to WP7 2 or w/e months after RTM wouldn't the Silverlight version used for apps and even the apps themselfs need to be updated if they wanted to use C&P?

I don't mind either way, for me it's still going to be a phone and not a mini-PC in my pocket, so I can wait it out for future updates.

You are correct in saying that Silverlight 4 did at clipboard support but WP7 is based on Silverlight 3, that is the whole issue atm. Since the only thing left for the WP7 team is to port Silverlight 4 over to WP7 I think the updates will come very quickly.

[Simon.]

Engadget wasn't impressed? Were they expecting a handheld God or something?

I was certainly very impressed by this and will definitely try to get a WP7 to replace my aging Android.

[jakem1]

Since you bring up the difference between the codes and what devs have to work with, since the version of silverlight for WP7 is v4 which added clipboard support, even if MS does add it to WP7 2 or w/e months after RTM wouldn't the Silverlight version used for apps and even the apps themselfs need to be updated if they wanted to use C&P?

I don't mind either way, for me it's still going to be a phone and not a mini-PC in my pocket, so I can wait it out for future updates.

You are correct in saying that Silverlight 4 did at clipboard support but WP7 is based on Silverlight 3, that is the whole issue atm. Since the only thing left for the WP7 team is to port Silverlight 4 over to WP7 I think the updates will come very quickly.

Actually, you're both kind of right. The version of Silverlight in WP7 is based on a mix of Silverlight 3 and 4. As Omen said, Microsoft are working to upgrade that to the full version of Silverlight 4.

Engadget wasn't impressed? Were they expecting a handheld God or something?

I was certainly very impressed by this and will definitely try to get a WP7 to replace my aging Android.

Don't worry, Engadget were impressed. Petvas just likes to make it seem like everyone hates WP7.