Mac OS X Lion Discussion

[ThothTD]

It's still read only (unless enabled by the command line)

Thank you. Will be nice when they enable it fully.

[PyX]

Does anyone know of a way to make the apps open maximised (full screen, no dock etc) by default?

Makes me think : So far, I haven?t seen a difference between the Zoom button in Snow Leopard and the completely re-thought Zoom button in Lion. None.

[.Neo]

However, holding an app make them "jiggle", but I don't see any X button to click on. Maybe it's because I have it in French?

Rudy just explained it only works for applications downloaded through the App Store. Not the regular ones.

Apparently the "X" doesn't just remove the alias from Launchpad in that case, but the entire application. :/ To hide the application from Launchpad you still have to hold down control + command + option and click.

Makes me think : So far, I haven?t seen a difference between the Zoom button in Snow Leopard and the completely re-thought Zoom button in Lion. None.

Because there is no "rethought" Zoom button present in Mac OS X Lion, it's exactly the same as in Mac OS X Snow Leopard and every Mac OS X version before it. Apple added an extra button to the titlebar on the right to access full screen mode, if available.

[Quillz]

Makes me think : So far, I haven?t seen a difference between the Zoom button in Snow Leopard and the completely re-thought Zoom button in Lion. None.

Ideally, what most people call the "Zoom" button in Mac OS X is really more of a "fit window to content" button. At least, I think that's what it was always intended to do, but there has never really been standardized behavior with it. Sometimes it fits the window to the content, sometimes it does a fullscreen maximize. To me, it's a shortcoming of the OS in that it's never had reliable behavior.

[PyX]

Rudy just explained it only works for applications downloaded through the App Store. Not the regular ones.

Apparently the "X" doesn't just remove the alias from Launchpad in that case, but the entire application. :/

Why the :/ face ? We will finally have an uninstaller in OS X. Let?s hope it also trashes the preferences, not just the .app file, leaving all the crap behind.

To hide the application from Launchpad you still have to hold down control + command + option and click.

For a company that likes to make unintuitive things intuitive, they will need to work on that one a little more.

Ideally, what most people call the "Zoom" button in Mac OS X is really more of a "fit window to content" button.

It depends. Sometimes it doesn?t even work this way, even in Safari. Sometimes it will just calculate a random window size that will add a horizontal scrollbar, even if I click on the Zoom button again.

And in apps like iTunes, it miniaturizes the application.

It?s still a mess to me. I?m glad that the full-screen button is there and seems to work beautifully, but the Zoom button needs to be reworked a little more, and it definitely lacks some animations and consistency. Personally, I resize all my windows manually (except since the 3rd-party Aero snap feature in OS X :) ) and we shouldn?t need to do that.

?

All in all, I?m still really mad at these developer builds. However, I do have hope that Apple keeps another branch internally with different OS X behaviors (LaunchPad, window animations, etc.) and unseen features.

Even if I keep in head that this OS was released exclusively for developers. What the hell will they do about window animations? Add a scale, a pop, a fade, or nothing at all?

[.Neo]

Why the :/ face ? We will finally have an uninstaller in OS X. Let?s hope it also trashes the preferences, not just the .app file, leaving all the crap behind.

Because currently A) It only works for applications installed through the App Store B) I don't think it's a very logical location. C) There still isn't a really obvious way to manage what applications appear in Launchpad and which don't.

For a company that likes to make unintuitive things intuitive, they will need to work on that one a little more.

Hence the :/. So far I'm finding Launchpad to be anything but intuitive. Hopefully things will change (a lot) before final.

It?s still a mess to me. I?m glad that the full-screen button is there and seems to work beautifully, but the Zoom button needs to be reworked a little more, and it definitely lacks some animations and consistency. Personally, I resize all my windows manually (except since the 3rd-party Aero snap feature in OS X :) ) and we shouldn?t need to do that.

Why do you keep talking about "rethinking" and "reworking" when it comes to the Zoom button? Its functionality hasn't changed since Mac OS X' initial release and it hasn't seen any changes in Mac OS X Lion either in the way it behaves.

You seem to have missed the part where "Zooming" a window does have an animation now in Mac OS X Lion.

Ideally, what most people call the "Zoom" button in Mac OS X is really more of a "fit window to content" button.

"Zoom" is the feature's official name, that's why people call it that way.

[PyX]

Because currently A) It only works for applications installed through the App Store B) I don't think it's a very logical location. C) There still isn't a really obvious way to manage what applications appear in Launchpad and which don't.

They would need to hide the applications folder completely and send everything directly into LaunchPad.

I don?t know that?s do-able...

Why do you keep talking about "rethinking" and "reworking" when it comes to the Zoom button? Its functionality hasn't changed since Mac OS X' initial release and it hasn't seen any changes in Mac OS X Lion either in the way it behaves.

Which particular functionality are you talking about?

The Zoom button has about as many different functionalities as there are applications in Mac OS X. When I say "it needs to be rethought", I mean they need to get clear on what it has to do.

"Zoom" is the feature's official name.

In French, it says : reduce / enlarge. Reduce to what size, and enlarge to what size?

But it?s better than in English : Zoom on what?

[.Neo]

They would need to hide the applications folder completely and send everything directly into LaunchPad.

I don?t know that?s do-able...

Using Launchpad to physically manage applications is completely counterintuitive. Grouping applications together in Launchpad in folders doesn't affect the actual application files, but removing them from Launchpad suddenly does? It makes no sense. Especially not considering that the exact same "X" button in Dashboard just closes a widget but does not delete it from your system. It's confusing as hell.

Which particular functionality are you talking about?

The Zoom button has about as many different functionalities as there are applications in Mac OS X. When I say "it needs to be rethought", I mean they need to get clear on what it has to do.

Before you seemed to be under the impression that Mac OS X Lion has a "rethought" Zoom button, which it doesn't, hence my question. I think you can forget about the Zoom button ever being consistent simply because the content area differs on a per application basis.

In French, it says : reduce / enlarge. Reduce to what size, and enlarge to what size?

But it?s better than in English : Zoom on what?

It says the same in Dutch: Enlarge/Reduce. Not sure what your point is though.

[AJerman]

Speaking of zoom, can anyone confirm that they can't zoom their screen anymore with ctrl+mouse wheel? I used to use this quite a bit since my MacBook actually displays to a TV. I wonder if it's removed, changed, or just a bug.

[.Neo]

Speaking of zoom, can anyone confirm that they can't zoom their screen anymore with ctrl+mouse wheel? I used to use this quite a bit since my MacBook actually displays to a TV. I wonder if it's removed, changed, or just a bug.

It's still there but you have to enable it in System Preferences. In Mac OS X Lion it seems to be unchecked by default, at least on my end.

[Quillz]

Hmm... I just now received an e-mail for ADC stating there is yet another new build available.

[PyX]

Hmm... I just now received an e-mail for ADC stating there is yet another new build available.

1 business day after the last build? They are on fire :p

Before you seemed to be under the impression that Mac OS X Lion has a "rethought" Zoom button, which it doesn?t

I wonder why I thought that ? ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHllK_hKFxY&feature=player_detailpage#t=3857s

@ 1 hour 04 minutes 17 seconds

[Quillz]

That build appears to be before they introduced the fullscreen widget on the upper right corner of each window, though. At the time of the build they were showing off, they do seem to have changed the Zoom button into a true fullscreen button, but later changed this.

[.Neo]

I wonder why I thought that ? ?

So you're sticking to what you saw in a demo from a build dated six months ago, while everything since DP1 indicated that full screen is triggered by a separate button altogether rather than Zoom? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that you're running a copy of Mac OS X Lion yourself and as such know that Apple apparently changed this behavior in the meantime.

[PyX]

So you're sticking to what you saw in a demo from a build dated six months ago, while everything since DP1 indicated that full screen is triggered by a separate button altogether rather than Zoom? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that you're running a copy of Mac OS X Lion yourself and as such know that Apple apparently changed this behavior in the meantime.

I do have the latest build up and running.

I was under the impression that they wanted the Zoom button to do something else in Lion. They tried making it a full-screen button and now that they?ve changed their mind about the fullscreen button, it doesn?t mean anything about the Zoom button.

[Manish]

So you're sticking to what you saw in a demo from a build dated six months ago, while everything since DP1 indicated that full screen is triggered by a separate button altogether rather than Zoom?

Is there any particular reason as to why they've changed their mind about this? The "Zoom" button enabling a full-screen window makes a lot more sense to me (maybe it's because I'm used to the "Windows way"), as opposed to a separate button for switching to full-screen and a green button for some random window-enlarging/-reducing. As PyX was saying, if they stuck to what they had in their preview demo, Zoom would have a more consistent, or unified, function throughout the various applications.

[.Neo]

Is there any particular reason as to why they've changed their mind about this? The "Zoom" button enabling a full-screen window makes a lot more sense to me (maybe it's because I'm used to the "Windows way"), as opposed to a separate button for switching to full-screen and a green button for some random window-enlarging/-reducing. As PyX was saying, if they stuck to what they had in their preview demo, Zoom would have a more consistent, or unified, function throughout the various applications.

It would become less consistent and more confusing: The main problem with using the green button for full screen is dat not all windows have full screen mode or will never need it (think applications like Disk Utility, Transmission, iChat etc.). So what happens is that you'll end up with a button that does two different things: standard enlargement of a window and new full screen with no real way of knowing what it will do. Second reason is that not all people will want to use full screen but prefer windowed mode. Zoom still has its uses simply because full screen is an additional feature rather than a replacement.

Unlike maximizing a window on Windows, full screen on Mac OS X Lion actually changes the layout of an application: adding different interface elements and overall window behavior. The two are quite different.

I think those are the reasons why Apple choose to add a dedicated full screen button.

I was under the impression that they wanted the Zoom button to do something else in Lion. They tried making it a full-screen button and now that they?ve changed their mind about the fullscreen button, it doesn?t mean anything about the Zoom button.

It means that as it stands now the Zoom button has its traditional task rather than being utilized to access full screen mode...

[PL_ Veteran]

Why the :/ face ? We will finally have an uninstaller in OS X. Let?s hope it also trashes the preferences, not just the .app file, leaving all the crap behind.

iOS doesn't do it, I doubt Mac OS X will.

[.Neo]

iOS doesn't do it, I doubt Mac OS X will.

From what I've noticed it depends per app on iOS. Some reset after deleting it, some don't.

[PyX]

It would become less consistent and more confusing: The main problem with using the green button for full screen is dat not all windows have full screen mode or will never need it (think applications like Disk Utility, Transmission, iChat etc.). So what happens is that you'll end up with a button that does two different things: standard enlargement of a window and new full screen with no real way of knowing what it will do. Second reason is that not all people will want to use full screen but prefer windowed mode. Zoom still has its uses simply because full screen is an additional feature rather than a replacement.

Or it can become disabled if the app has no fullscreen hooks?

Right now, I don?t know anyone who doesn?t swear in front of this "Zoom" functionality. It?s one of the first buttons Windows-to-OS-X switchers will try, and they will never understand its behavior. That doesn?t leave them a good idea of what OS X is if they can?t even understand this button.

Even long time OS X users, like me, will never understand its behavior.

So the decision?s crystal clear here, it needs to become something else.

[.Neo]

Zoom is a nice concept it just doesn't work very well in practice. It never has, although granted it's a lot less buggy today than it used to be in the past. If Apple changed Zoom so it always reverts back to the previous window size when clicking it a second time (like the maximize button on Windows) it would tremendously improve the feature. I can't stand the fact that the zoom button becomes useless once you use it and then move the window.

It's my humble opinion that clicking the zoom button for the second time should ALWAYS revert the window back to its original size.

[Quillz]

Unlike maximizing a window on Windows, full screen on Mac OS X Lion actually changes the layout of an application: adding different interface elements and overall window behavior. The two are quite different.

I hope it's something developers take advantage of, though. Because right now, it seems only Apple's own applications actually look/work any differently when made fullscreen.

[Southern Patriot]

It's my humble opinion that clicking the zoom button for the second time should ALWAYS revert the window back to its original size.

Add "and position" to the end of that, and I'd agree with you 100% on that.

[.Neo]

Because right now, it seems only Apple's own applications actually look/work any differently when made fullscreen.

You find that surprising considering Mac OS X Lion isn't publicly available yet?

Add "and position" to the end of that, and I'd agree with you 100% on that.

That too of course. :) If Apple fixes that zoom is perfect in my opinion. I fully understand that different applications resize differently (ie some to exactly fit to content, while others "maximize").

[Quillz]

You find that surprising considering Mac OS X Lion isn't publicly available yet?

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the major Mac developers have some kind of internal alpha/beta releases that are being tested with Lion builds right now.

I just hope it's something developers take advantage of. If not, then going fullscreen won't be any different than going fullscreen in Linux or Windows. But the problem is that with a lot of applications, I can't think of any reason why going fullscreen would need a slightly different UI or layout. I'm curious to see what some companies, such as Panic, are going to do with fullscreen modes in applications like Transmit. Maybe they'll not have a fullscreen mode at all.