Miami police shoot, kill man carrying a toy gun

[Solid Knight]

Real life isn't like the movies where people fall to the ground crying because one of their limbs was shot. War has proved that people can continue to fight despite major injury.

Also, if you remember your anatomy, major veins and arteries are in your leg so even if you're shot there you can still die.

[PyX]

So why wasn't the sister (or other family member) taking care of this mentally disabled man instead of letting him wander the streets?

You can?t have an eye on him 24/7. It?s a matter of minutes before an event like this happens.

[thechronic]

Police cannot be blamed here really. A person appeared to have a weapon, and they ended his life rather than put others at risk.

[PyX]

So the police shoots an innocent old man and people defend the police ? If this had happened over here there would have been an uproar. They couldn't have shot him in the legs ? Your police can't stun people ? I mean ... they can't control an old man with a fake gun without killing him ? That's what you call Police ?

It?s a question of survival.

If you shoot him in the leg, don?t expect him to drop the gun and surrender. He?ll start to shoot everywhere he can to kill you. And then you?ll have to kill him before he kills you, if he hasn?t done it already.

Stunning people, AFAIK, requires a taser, thus requires a melee distance between the victim and the police officer. I don?t have the exact scenario, but I?m ready to bet $100 that it wasn?t the case.

[DocM]

Taser range is generally less than 30 feet - too close for an armed attacker as even with a knife you only have a very few seconds. I think an experiment once showed a knife attack from ~30 feet could injure the defender in as little as 3 secs with a fit attacker.

As to blood vessels; they are often only a few millimeters wide & easy to miss. Also, if the wound channel even partly clots off the tissues internal pressure can act as a tourniquet. The baddie may still bleed into a muscle capsule until the pressure equalizes and suffer a compartment syndrome, but they'll still be moving for a while.

Hence the need for a round that can produce hydrostatic shock; a pressure wave so intense (up to 2,000 psi) that it can cause damage at a significant distance from the wound. With pressure waves over 1,000 psi a hit in the pelvis or trunk can actually cause brain damage ranging from a concussion to a cerebral bleed - a stroke. This effect was disputed for a while, but now it's medically recognized.

Cartridges; .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, FN 5.7 mm etc. with Htdra-Shok/HST etc. bullets (extreme hollow points.)

[Southern Patriot]

But those vessels are often only a few millimeters wide & easy to miss. Also, if the wound channel even partly clots off the tissues internal pressure can act as a tourniquet. The baddie may still bleed into a muscle capsule until the pressure equalizes and suffer a compartment syndrome, but they'll still be moving for a while.

If you are talking about Solid Knight's post, I think the point he was trying to make is that it is quite possible that the police DID try to disable him by shooting him in the leg, and he still died of the injury.

[DocM]

Risky. No cop here would take that chance. Either they hit a vessel or it was an HST round that could shred it with the pressure wave.

[Solid Knight]

If you are talking about Solid Knight's post, I think the point he was trying to make is that it is quite possible that the police DID try to disable him by shooting him in the leg, and he still died of the injury.

Close. The point I was making is that shooting to wound can be fatal especially if you're shooting at the upper leg.

---

I'm willing to wager that if the police did shoot him in the leg and he died all the people demanding a leg shot would then switch their position to "they should have tasered him". If he died from a taser then they would switch their position to pepper spray or whatever. You can't win with these people. They don't care how reasonable the use of a weapon was; they're just mad that somebody died.

[jimboh1]

Hows' about people challenged by the police merely obey the direction given, and then there wouldn't be 8 pages of posts to sift through? At the end of the day, that's always the bottom line.

[ILikeTobacco]

Close. The point I was making is that shooting to wound can be fatal especially if you're shooting at the upper leg.

---

I'm willing to wager that if the police did shoot him in the leg and he died all the people demanding a leg shot would then switch their position to "they should have tasered him". If he died from a taser then they would switch their position to pepper spray or whatever. You can't win with these people. They don't care how reasonable the use of a weapon was; they're just mad that somebody died.

Wonder what their position would be if the article read, "Policeman dead after thinking gun was a toy was shot" They would probably call the policeman a dumbass

[DocM]

Bingo. Back to my comment about common sense.

[Thunderbuck]

Wow. All kinds of discussion about whether or not the police should have shot to kill (which, btw, I agree they should have, given the circumstances).

For me, the larger question here is whether or not this was a deliberate "suicide-by-cop" attempt by the victim. I believe many such police shootings are motivated by that, and I find it seriously troubling on a lot of levels.

1) Do we need to look at the availability of mental health services for the depressed in general?

2) Is there any information generally available to train caregivers on how to deal with the suicidally-depressed?

3) Alternatively, if we're not going to bother with the first two points, can we at least provide easier means for people to kill themselves with dignity rather than trying to bait policemen into exterminating them? It's rough on the cops involved and I'm sure the cost of processing the paperwork alone is exorbitant.

[Southern Patriot]

Cartridges; .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, FN 5.7 mm etc. with Htdra-Shok/HST etc. bullets (extreme hollow points.)

A 12 gauge slug would work nicely too :-)

[DocM]

Hard to carry around town though :p

I wouldn't use a slug, too likely to exit the structure. Buckshot.

[Charisma Veteran]

Wow. All kinds of discussion about whether or not the police should have shot to kill (which, btw, I agree they should have, given the circumstances).

For me, the larger question here is whether or not this was a deliberate "suicide-by-cop" attempt by the victim. I believe many such police shootings are motivated by that, and I find it seriously troubling on a lot of levels.

1) Do we need to look at the availability of mental health services for the depressed in general?

2) Is there any information generally available to train caregivers on how to deal with the suicidally-depressed?

3) Alternatively, if we're not going to bother with the first two points, can we at least provide easier means for people to kill themselves with dignity rather than trying to bait policemen into exterminating them? It's rough on the cops involved and I'm sure the cost of processing the paperwork alone is exorbitant.

I like #3, if you can prove that I'm mentally sound but would like to gracefully duck out of the mortal coil, why am I not allowed to do so with dignity? Why do people insist on disrespecting someone's wishes so severely? Just so they don't have to deal with the guilt themselves, I suppose.

[Thunderbuck]

I like #3, if you can prove that I'm mentally sound but would like to gracefully duck out of the mortal coil, why am I not allowed to do so with dignity? Why do people insist on disrespecting someone's wishes so severely? Just so they don't have to deal with the guilt themselves, I suppose.

Okay, so why not establish such methods and make them available to people so they don't have to bait law enforcement to do it for them?

EDIT: Okay, so that comes across as either extremely callous or extremely smart-ass, but I'm actually semi-serious. An awful lot of police shootings (particularly ones related to domestic abuse calls) end this way, and in most instances it's not due to any fault of the officers; they have to deal with threats appropriately and if distressed individuals are presenting themselves as legitimate threats, they need to be dealt with as such.

There's a heavy cost, though. It can add costs to the medical system (to treat shooting victims who don't perish immediately), frequently adds to the court system and investigative overhead, and most importantly subjects the officers involved to PTSD that can sometimes end careers.

Why doesn't anyone look at it this way?

[Hardcore Til I Die]

I like #3, if you can prove that I'm mentally sound but would like to gracefully duck out of the mortal coil, why am I not allowed to do so with dignity? Why do people insist on disrespecting someone's wishes so severely? Just so they don't have to deal with the guilt themselves, I suppose.

Wanting to die is in itself an indication that a person is not mentally sound, in my opinion.

But I take your point: if someone wants to die and is sane, they should be allowed to.

[Seizure1990]

That's amazing 20/20 hindsight vision you have there, Spudtrooper.

The cops didn't know it was a fake gun. They thought it was a real gun. End of story, pretty much.

[Japlabot]

3) Alternatively, if we're not going to bother with the first two points, can we at least provide easier means for people to kill themselves with dignity rather than trying to bait policemen into exterminating them? It's rough on the cops involved and I'm sure the cost of processing the paperwork alone is exorbitant.

EDIT: Okay, so that comes across as either extremely callous or extremely smart-ass, but I'm actually semi-serious. An awful lot of police shootings (particularly ones related to domestic abuse calls) end this way, and in most instances it's not due to any fault of the officers; they have to deal with threats appropriately and if distressed individuals are presenting themselves as legitimate threats, they need to be dealt with as such.

There's a heavy cost, though. It can add costs to the medical system (to treat shooting victims who don't perish immediately), frequently adds to the court system and investigative overhead, and most importantly subjects the officers involved to PTSD that can sometimes end careers.

Why doesn't anyone look at it this way?

Wow. Unbelievable. I would be utterly ashamed to write such stupid posts. You obviously have no knowledge of depression.

I will put aside the fact that this particular case has no relevance to depression, and that it was NOT a case of suicide by cop, and focus on the broader issue of what you suggest.

What you are talking about is Euthanasia. Generally there is a lot of support for Euthanasia if it is justified (eg: to put someone out of their misery of a painful and terminal disease). Depression is NOT a justification for Euthanasia. It is NOT a terminal disease, it is 100% treatable.

Of those who are depressed and are going to make a suicide attempt, they are far more likely to attempt to kill themselves with self-harm (Cut wrists, take pills, jump off bridge, etc.) than the suicide-by-cop method, of which most times they are unsuccessful, which makes your idea of having a suicide booth on every street corner (or maybe a Euthanasia call out unit/Death Squads) to replace death-by-cop utterly unutilized. Even of the death-by-cop attempts, they are usually unsuccessful (from the committing suicide point of view) because they are usually talked out of it by the Police, comply & get help.

It is much better to make it harder for them to be successful so that they can get treated for the illness instead. The Police are very good at calming down someone who is trying to commit suicide because they have been trained in this. Depression is a serious illness and the last thing we need are idiots who want to 'put them out of their misery' than to help them. Depression much more common than you think and the biggest problem is those who slip through the cracks, usually because of a lack of treatment available in their area.

[mokthraka]

Wow. Unbelievable. I would be utterly ashamed to write such stupid posts. You obviously have no knowledge of depression.

I will put aside the fact that this particular case has no relevance to depression, and that it was NOT a case of suicide by cop, and focus on the broader issue of what you suggest.

What you are talking about is Euthanasia. Generally there is a lot of support for Euthanasia if it is justified (eg: to put someone out of their misery of a painful and terminal disease). Depression is NOT a justification for Euthanasia. It is NOT a terminal disease, it is 100% treatable.

Of those who are depressed and are going to make a suicide attempt, they are far more likely to attempt to kill themselves with self-harm (Cut wrists, take pills, jump off bridge, etc.) than the suicide-by-cop method, of which most times they are unsuccessful, which makes your idea of having a suicide booth on every street corner (or maybe a Euthanasia call out unit/Death Squads) to replace death-by-cop utterly unutilized. Even of the death-by-cop attempts, they are usually unsuccessful (from the committing suicide point of view) because they are usually talked out of it by the Police, comply & get help.

It is much better to make it harder for them to be successful so that they can get treated for the illness instead. The Police are very good at calming down someone who is trying to commit suicide because they have been trained in this. Depression is a serious illness and the last thing we need are idiots who want to 'put them out of their misery' than to help them. Depression much more common than you think and the biggest problem is those who slip through the cracks, usually because of a lack of treatment available in their area.

+1

all im gonna say

[Thunderbuck]

Wow. Unbelievable. I would be utterly ashamed to write such stupid posts. You obviously have no knowledge of depression.

You have NO idea...

I will put aside the fact that this particular case has no relevance to depression, and that it was NOT a case of suicide by cop, and focus on the broader issue of what you suggest.

I don't know how you can reach that conclusion, because to me it fits a very clear pattern. To me--and I'll admit I could be wrong--this looks like a chronically unhappy person who was tired of being chronically unhappy, took out a replica weapon he knew looked realistic, hassled people enough to prod them to call the authorities, and then likely confronted said authorities in such a way that they had no choice but to deal with the threat that he apparently presented.

Am I missing something?

What you are talking about is Euthanasia. Generally there is a lot of support for Euthanasia if it is justified (eg: to put someone out of their misery of a painful and terminal disease). Depression is NOT a justification for Euthanasia. It is NOT a terminal disease, it is 100% treatable.

Alright, I'll 'fess up, the whole notion of making suicide easier was a trolling tactic on my part (sorry!), and I agree that depression is completely treatable. But we live in a culture where mental health issues remain taboo for many. Men, in particular, are frequently ridiculed and characterized as weak for seeking help for mental or emotional problems. And when people don't seek help, they sometimes act out with tragic consequences. As I believe happened here.

And I'll stand by this much of what I said: these incidents are hell on the responders. The up-front costs of instituting better health care intervention could well save serious costs later on.

Of those who are depressed and are going to make a suicide attempt, they are far more likely to attempt to kill themselves with self-harm (Cut wrists, take pills, jump off bridge, etc.) than the suicide-by-cop method, of which most times they are unsuccessful, which makes your idea of having a suicide booth on every street corner (or maybe a Euthanasia call out unit/Death Squads) to replace death-by-cop utterly unutilized. Even of the death-by-cop attempts, they are usually unsuccessful (from the committing suicide point of view) because they are usually talked out of it by the Police, comply & get help.

I'm not sure that in many of these cases the perps are consciously suicidal. But they ARE self-destructive and spoiling for a confrontation with authority. They may be more concerned with the "blaze of glory" than anything else, but they aren't thinking of surviving past the encounter, either.

Many of these confrontations (again, particularly domestic complaints) are fueled by hopelessness and despair. Police arrive on the scene to find men who have trouble seeing past the next five minutes.

It is much better to make it harder for them to be successful so that they can get treated for the illness instead. The Police are very good at calming down someone who is trying to commit suicide because they have been trained in this. Depression is a serious illness and the last thing we need are idiots who want to 'put them out of their misery' than to help them. Depression much more common than you think and the biggest problem is those who slip through the cracks, usually because of a lack of treatment available in their area.

I actually agree that the better alternative here is to identify the self-destructively depressed and intervene before these situations arise.

Ultimately, my concern here is with the police who were forced to respond. The responders had to do what they had to do, and I'm sorry they're the ones who have to live with the victim's family's failure to get help sooner.

[Japlabot]

I don't know how you can reach that conclusion, because to me it fits a very clear pattern. To me--and I'll admit I could be wrong--this looks like a chronically unhappy person who was tired of being chronically unhappy, took out a replica weapon he knew looked realistic, hassled people enough to prod them to call the authorities, and then likely confronted said authorities in such a way that they had no choice but to deal with the threat that he apparently presented.

Am I missing something?

YES!

The front page which says he was mentally disabled, not mentally ill.

In the source, which has been updated, says that he was autistic, specifically.

Clearly it was not someone who has had enough of it all and decided to end their life.

[Thunderbuck]

YES!

The front page which says he was mentally disabled, not mentally ill.

In the source, which has been updated, says that he was autistic, specifically.

Clearly it was not someone who has had enough of it all and decided to end their life.

"Clearly"? You don't have enough information to say that. I'm ADD (which is really a form of high-functioning autism), and I have autistic friends and relatives, and I can tell you that autism is a risk factor for chronic depression. One of the strong characteristics of autism is the tendency to socially isolate, which leaves sufferers feeling disconnected from the rest of the world. In fact, the autistic are particularly prone to depression as they have a much harder time articulating their feelings to others and seek help. They're far more likely to just assume there's something flawed about them that can't be addressed. I've spent literally decades of my life believing "depressed" was "normal".

Again, the situation as it's described in the news item fits a clear pattern of deliberate provocation and self-destruction. "Mentally disabled" does not preclude "mentally ill".

EDIT: Tell you what, if you don't buy my characterization of the victim's behavior in the time leading up to the shooting, how would YOU explain it?

EDIT2: I went back to the linked item, and I see nothing to refute what I'm saying here. The neighbors say the victim's disability was "obvious", but that isn't specified at all. Does it affect his speech? His mannerisms? Would it make him any less dangerous were he brandishing a real gun? And maybe the central point, even if the gun he brandished was a toy, he pointed it at the officers. Are we trying to say that was some unfortunate accident, or don't you think there might be some self-destructive urge involved there?

[Japlabot]

"Clearly"? You don't have enough information to say that. I'm ADD (which is really a form of high-functioning autism), and I have autistic friends and relatives, and I can tell you that autism is a risk factor for chronic depression. One of the strong characteristics of autism is the tendency to socially isolate, which leaves sufferers feeling disconnected from the rest of the world. In fact, the autistic are particularly prone to depression as they have a much harder time articulating their feelings to others and seek help. They're far more likely to just assume there's something flawed about them that can't be addressed. I've spent literally decades of my life believing "depressed" was "normal".

Again, the situation as it's described in the news item fits a clear pattern of deliberate provocation and self-destruction. "Mentally disabled" does not preclude "mentally ill".

Point taken, but in this case, there are no reports to suggest that depression was a factor here or that he deliberately provoked the Police.

[Thunderbuck]

Point taken, but in this case, there are no reports to suggest that depression was a factor here or that he deliberately provoked the Police.

Sorry, I was editing my previous post as you were responding to it. I went back and read the source item, and I'd say there are a couple of elements that point to deliberate provocation: the victim's belligerent behavior to his neighbors and--most importantly--that he aimed at the officers when they encountered him.

Yes, I think he knew he'd get shot if he did that. And that's a way easier scenario to believe than that this is some tragic accident.