Miami police shoot, kill man carrying a toy gun

[jimboh1]

What concerns me is what is to stop criminals from adding an orange tip to a real gun to make the police think that they are not really a threat, and then BANG.

They can and they have, @ least in my community- thus police can never presume from the outset that it isn't a real firearm. Airsoft are the new fake firearms of choice, too, as they don't have an orange tip requirement, @ least here.

[Rooster69]

I'm sorry, but killing someone is never an appropriate response. The appropriate response is to get the situation under control and resolve it and if there is criminal activity then the courts will uphold the law.

Now if the cops were shot at, then return fire. Simple as that.

Obviously you have never been in a situation like this, your ignorance is excused.

[DocM]

The red tip is virtually useless from the law enforcement perspective. They are supposed to indicate a harmless item, and often don't.

Classes;

Outright toys. Red tips.

BB and pellet guns, some of which look very real, fire potentially harmful metal projectiles using spring, pumped compressed air, compressed nitrogen or compressed CO2 gas cylinders. No red tip.

Airsoft guns. Near-perfect replicas of real weapons that fire low energy plastic pellets and are issued with the red tips.

Paintball guns. CO2 powered guns that shoot soft spheres containing colored & thickened liquids. No red tip.

Criminals will either cut off the red tips on Airsoft guns as a cheap substitute, or even paint red tips on real guns. Some will also use "alternative" materials for the projectiles in paintball guns.

OTOH Airsoft war gamers will often paint the red tips black because they are a tactical disadvantage.

This all leaves cops caught between a rock and a hard place, having to assume anything that looks like a gun IS a real gun.

[jimboh1]

I'm sorry, but killing someone is never an appropriate response. The appropriate response is to get the situation under control and resolve it and if there is criminal activity then the courts will uphold the law.

Now if the cops were shot at, then return fire. Simple as that.

So the appropriate response is perhaps to get shot yourself, and be crippled or dead, and unable to take care of your family?! The courts aren't there in the milliseconds an exchange can happen, and action is always faster than reaction. Your opinion is naive and unrealistic.

[Bryan R.]

I can make paper towel tubes look like bombs.. whats the point? You have to train people to have discretion, but apply it with respect to the people they're supposed to be protecting. If you fear everything and everyone, you honestly shouldn't be a police officer.

Someone could paint the end of their real gun with orange paint, but it would still look like paint. Toy guns look like plasting end caps. If an officer can't make the call, he shouldn't make the call to use deadly force, but other means of getting the situation under control.

You are one sorry excuse for a human being if you actually believe what you just typed. I'll just accept you're lacking some maturity and leave it at that.

So from 20 or more feet away, a person is meant to distinguish paint or marker over an orange cap rather than paint from the factory. Your expectations are outrageous. And to say a police officer's life or anyone else's in the vicinity is any less important is disturbing. Yes you are saying that by stating the officers should LET the suspect fire first! But of course my logic and reason should simply be discarded as immaturity. Get over yourself. I am not the one pretending to have superhuman sight and reflexes and foresight.

[Rooster69]

So from 20 or more feet away, a person is meant to distinguish paint or marker over an orange cap rather than paint from the factory. Your expectations are outrageous. And to say a police officer's life or anyone else's in the vicinity is any less important is disturbing. Yes you are saying that by stating the officers should LET the suspect fire first! But of course my logic and reason should simply be discarded as immaturity. Get over yourself. I am not the one pretending to have superhuman sight and reflexes and foresight.

You can not compete with ignorance, let it go, the guy is obviously clueless or trolling or both.

[Vykranth]

An encounter between the man and officers ensued and shots were fired, North Miami Beach police spokesman Sgt. Warren Hardison said. The man was flown to a hospital where he was pronounced dead.

This is a bit short, isn't this?

How did the encounter go? How the police officers approach the man? How did he react? Did the policemen ordered him to drop his weapon and lay down? Did he understand the police officers orders?

As the man was mentally disabled, did he point the toy rifle to the police officers and did the police officers think that he was a threat to them and fire?

There is more to this story that the report offers.

[spudtrooper]

So what you're saying is, even if it was a real gun and a real threat, the cops should allow the gunman to shoot at them first? How exactly is the courts going to bring a dead cop back to life?

And how else is the situation going to get under control when you have a gunman, other than shooting the gunman? (even if the gunman has already fired first)

First, if the cop feels his life is in danger he should be trained to back off and call and wait for assistance. Cops aren't trained to be lone rangers. Obviously this person wasn't shooting or holding anyone up so the urgency of shooting to kill first simply just wasn't there.

We don't know the entire situation, so i won't claim to justify the actions of anyone other than by beliefs that the use of deadly force should be the absolute last option, after non deadly force has been attempted or there is imminent threat to the officer by a complete lack of control over the situation.

Being a police officer is a dangerous job that someone chooses to do. I'll chuck this one up to lack of training..

BTW, if you bing or google shootings like this, they happen a lot.. I think a mossberg with 2 shots of beanbags would have knocked him cold and left him with some pain he will never forget, but at least a good chance of being alive.

but you guys can discuss amongs yourselves.. i'm guessing none of you have children, friends or family that may ever get caught up in something so silly that should never result in death..

and of course, a proper gun education should always be important. my kids know to never aim even a toy gun at anyone, but who are we kidding, when kids "play guns" they're pointing and throwing crap at everyone

[Dick Montage]

I'm sorry, but killing him was not the only option.

OK, you see a man with what you HAVE to assume is a loaded weapon. He is acting precariously in a populated place.

Your call, what do you do?

I would also like to mention that mental dissability does not always mean oversight. There are plenty of people with mental dissabilities that live without 100% supervision.

Agreed. However:

1) This guy clearly did need supervision.

2) The police didn't have the time or ability to make the judgement that he suffered with a mental dissability.

3) A mental dissability, as I have said, can go one of many different ways. It could make him a lesser threat. It could make him a greater threat.

Your call what do you do?

I agre that the circumstances were pretty bad for all involved and lots of things failed, but the use of deadly force in my opinion was over the top.

Your call what do you do?

Taking your time to assess the situation? Judging whether he's a greater threat because he's clearly got issues? Trying to work out if that's a real gun, loaded and ready to fire?

Oh dear, he's just opened fire spraying the passers by with rounds. 2 children are mamed and 1 guy is dead.

Suer, that's only ONE of MANY ways it could play out. But the duty is to the populace, not one individual causing the problem.

[articuno1au]

So from 20 or more feet away, a person is meant to distinguish paint or marker over an orange cap rather than paint from the factory. Your expectations are outrageous. And to say a police officer's life or anyone else's in the vicinity is any less important is disturbing. Yes you are saying that by stating the officers should LET the suspect fire first! But of course my logic and reason should simply be discarded as immaturity. Get over yourself. I am not the one pretending to have superhuman sight and reflexes and foresight.

I think this pretty much sums up my feelings in response to Spudtroopers posts :\

The cops are entitled to life as much as he is. Their job is to assess when taking of life is necessary, they clearly thought it was here.

[LittleNeutrino Veteran]

sadly this is very easy to happen as being he was mentally disabled he was more prone not to relinquish his weapon and it is the officers duty if they cannot tell the gun is fake to shoot. however, generally they will aim for the legs not just kill the person out right.

[zippitydooda]

cops need rifles with tranquilizer darts for this situation

[DocM]

To illustrate the problem, this is a Crosman C11 Tactical BB gun. Shoots a .177 ball sphere (BB means ball bearing) and in the vast majority of the US can be purchased without permit or age restriction. Hell, you can order one online from Amazon.

The C11T is CO2 powered, comes with a real laser sight and a simulated silencer. More interesting is that many Airsoft guns look even more real - including versions that look like submachine guns like the MP5.

[articuno1au]

This is a bit short, isn't this?

How did the encounter go? How the police officers approach the man? How did he react? Did the policemen ordered him to drop his weapon and lay down? Did he understand the police officers orders?

As the man was mentally disabled, did he point the toy rifle to the police officers and did the police officers think that he was a threat to them and fire?

There is more to this story that the report offers.

They won't comment until the inquest is complete. They aren't allowed to.

First, if the cop feels his life is in danger he should be trained to back off and call and wait for assistance. Cops aren't trained to be lone rangers. Obviously this person wasn't shooting or holding anyone up so the urgency of shooting to kill first simply just wasn't there.

We don't know the entire situation, so i won't claim to justify the actions of anyone other than by beliefs that the use of deadly force should be the absolute last option, after non deadly force has been attempted or there is imminent threat to the officer by a complete lack of control over the situation.

Being a police officer is a dangerous job that someone chooses to do. I'll chuck this one up to lack of training..

BTW, if you bing or google shootings like this, they happen a lot.. I think a mossberg with 2 shots of beanbags would have knocked him cold and left him with some pain he will never forget, but at least a good chance of being alive.

but you guys can discuss amongs yourselves.. i'm guessing none of you have children, friends or family that may ever get caught up in something so silly that should never result in death..

and of course, a proper gun education should always be important. my kids know to never aim even a toy gun at anyone, but who are we kidding, when kids "play guns" they're pointing and throwing crap at everyone

The police can't risk him killing someone while they are waiting..

I have plenty of friends and family who I don't think should get caught up in this kind of thing, it doesn't mean I think the police should just sit there and wait to get shot at :\

OK, you see a man with what you HAVE to assume is a loaded weapon. He is acting precariously in a populated place.

Your call, what do you do?

Agreed. However:

1) This guy clearly did need supervision.

2) The police didn't have the time or ability to make the judgement that he suffered with a mental dissability.

3) A mental dissability, as I have said, can go one of many different ways. It could make him a lesser threat. It could make him a greater threat.

Your call what do you do?

Taking your time to assess the situation? Judging whether he's a greater threat because he's clearly got issues? Trying to work out if that's a real gun, loaded and ready to fire?

Oh dear, he's just opened fire spraying the passers by with rounds. 2 children are mamed and 1 guy is dead.

Suer, that's only ONE of MANY ways it could play out. But the duty is to the populace, not one individual causing the problem.

As much as I think njlouch is a tool, he has this one dead on.

It takes less then a second to shoulder, sight and fire an automatic rifle. The police shouldn't leave it to chance.

If someone had been killed because they didn't react fast enough; we'd be crucifying them for that as well :\

[spudtrooper]

So from 20 or more feet away, a person is meant to distinguish paint or marker over an orange cap rather than paint from the factory. Your expectations are outrageous. And to say a police officer's life or anyone else's in the vicinity is any less important is disturbing. Yes you are saying that by stating the officers should LET the suspect fire first! But of course my logic and reason should simply be discarded as immaturity. Get over yourself. I am not the one pretending to have superhuman sight and reflexes and foresight.

First and foremost, being a police officer has occupational hazards. Those hazards don't automatically justify deadly force. An officer takes risk in everything he does from serving a traffic ticket to pulling a bust or heading out to a call like this.

My only point i'm trying to make is that the use of deadly force in this situation doesn't appear to be fully warranted. You seem to have no regard for human life, so you have your own beliefs.

Being a cop is a hard job but sometimes the hardest part of being a cop is to know when its better to manage the risk of your own safety vs the taking the life of someone else.

Crappy situation, but in no way shape or form will i ever accept that deadly force was the only solution when apparently non lethal force didn't really appear to be attempted (and the use of shotS fired meaning more than one...)

[Vykranth]

They won't comment until the inquest is complete. They aren't allowed to.

It takes less then a second to shoulder site and fire an automatic rifle. The police shouldn't leave it to chance.

If someone had been killed because they didn't react fast enough; we'd be crucifying them for that as well :\

This is a pity that the news article is too early and cannot bring more information on the circumstances.

If the inquiry shows that the police officers shot because they thought the man presented an imminent threat to them or other people, it falls under the rules of engagement issue and it is justified for the policemen to shoot and this story is the sad death of a man.

If not, well, this is a professional fault.

Still, at this point, we can only speculate on hpothesis...

[Japlabot]

First, if the cop feels his life is in danger he should be trained to back off and call and wait for assistance. Cops aren't trained to be lone rangers. Obviously this person wasn't shooting or holding anyone up so the urgency of shooting to kill first simply just wasn't there.

Mate, you need to look at this subjectively with logic, this is not an argument that you can win.

Whether the person has a intellectual disability is irrelevant, because if the Police are not aware of the person's condition and that they are not really a threat, then they are expected to treat them as any other person brandishing a gun who is a threat. It is too easy to judge in hindsight, but the cops do not information about a person's mental capacity and their genuine threat level at the time that it is happening.

If cops were to 'back off and wait for assistance' that would put the public at risk from either the gunman gunning down other people while the cop backs away, or letting the gunman get away so that he can gun down other people later on. Just because they are not shooting doesn't mean that they are not a threat. You can not honestly expect that someone has to be shot/killed before action can be taken. Even if the gunman is taken alive after killing someone and they are handled in court in accordance with the law, at the end of the day, an innocent party has still been killed, the court action can not bring them back, and it could have been prevented by taking out the gunman in the first place.

Being a police officer is a dangerous job that someone chooses to do.

100% correct, but that does not mean that cops should be offering themselves up as human decoys to test if the gun is real first. Being a cop does not mean that you are expected to put yourself in suicidal situations.

[Dick Montage]

As much as I think njlouch is a tool, he has this one dead on.

I think I may have been in a foul mood during our previous encounters.

My only point i'm trying to make is that the use of deadly force in this situation doesn't appear to be fully warranted. You seem to have no regard for human life, so you have your own beliefs.

My regard is for the livelihood of anyone nearby who he may have hurt.

[Bryan R.]

My only point i'm trying to make is that the use of deadly force in this situation doesn't appear to be fully warranted. You seem to have no regard for human life, so you have your own beliefs.

Now if the cops were shot at, then return fire.

And to say a police officer's life or anyone else's in the vicinity is any less important is disturbing. Yes you are saying that by stating the officers should LET the suspect fire first!

OKAY (Y)

You seem to have less regard for innocents' lives, so you have your own beliefs.

[Japlabot]

and the use of shotS fired meaning more than one...

This is usually indicative that multiple officers independently reacted in the same way at the same time, when presented with the same threatening situation. No time for bean bags, more backup & Mexican stand-offs when you think that someone is about to get shot.

[Farstrider]

I pretty much read the entire thread so forgive me if I have missed anyone who may be thinking what I am thinking! What I would like to know, is if this was a kid with this so called deadly weapon would the police have also shot the person??

[Thunderbuck]

People don't seem to be acknowledging that this could well have been a case of "suicide by cop".

The victim could well have known that by carrying around a convincing-looking replica and by acting aggressively that the cops would be compelled to shoot.

[articuno1au]

I think I may have been in a foul mood during our previous encounters.

Quite possibly :p

Don't worry, I'm no angel either ;) Thanks for the PM :)

People don't seem to be acknowledging that this could well have been a case of "suicide by cop".

The victim could well have known that by carrying around a convincing-looking replica and by acting aggressively that the cops would be compelled to shoot.

Indeed, and again when that information is released we can talk about it.

Either way I see no problems thus far with what has been presented. If it turns out he put the gun down then they shot him: I'll be ****ed off on everyone's behalf.

[Dick Montage]

Exactly, all my arguments are based upon what we have been given thus far and possible conjecture. If it turns out he was surrendering and posed no threat, or if the police instantly fired without warning - then I will be apalled!

[+LogicalApex MVC]

I pretty much read the entire thread so forgive me if I have missed anyone who may be thinking what I am thinking! What I would like to know, is if this was a kid with this so called deadly weapon would the police have also shot the person??

Yes, and they should react the same way. A kid doesn't automatically make them a non-threat... Here in Philadelphia we have armed kids (10 year olds) who sell drugs and are carrying REAL weapons and do kill people...

A couple of years ago our police department warned that aiming a toy guy at police will be treated like aiming a real one, and I agree. The cop doesn't have the time to determine if the gun is real or not when he has to shoot before the gun is even fully aimed if he wants to save himself or someone else...