Lets hear it! Iimmersive UI (Start Panel) in Windows 8 (Desktop) Good?

[George P Global Moderator]

Wow, you mean the Windows 8 Developer Preview isnt retail? Gee thanks for telling me.

Try reading what i said again, think about it a bit, then come up with a proper answer.

Windows 7 wont spontaneously combust but because its the newer operating system, microsoft and developers are going to be gearing their apps to this Metro interface and it means im going to lose out on features if i dont use Metro.

Maybe, or maybe not, I think the IE10 preview is telling. It has both the classic desktop version and the metro version. Once you're in the metro UI at some webpage you can, with the click of a button, go out into the classic desktop version. If, and maybe this isn't the case, you can add that option to your apps then regardless of how your users use it you cover both bases.

[Steven P. Administrators]

OK peoples, as was said in the OP, everyone knows it's a developer preview but feedback is what causes change. IF you wait till it's final then they'll say well we didn't hear any complaints so we thought everyone liked it.

The fact that it's not final doesn't mean you should just deal with it, actually the fact that it's not final is why Microsoft is sending it out (knowing even developers wont like certain things that doesn't have to deal with delopment). If you are a developer and you only care about the code but not the final presentation of your App alongside with other apps then you aren't seeing the big picture. What if you designed an app now with the UI in mind just the way it is and then Microsoft went all 180 degrees and changed tons of stuff, your design would now be out of date. This is of-course if you didn't voice concerns as well as followed up with Microsoft on new changes. Surely you'd be a bad dev then but Microsoft knows there are those "Garage developers" which wont have futher access that normal MSDN subscribers do so they may not get all the information that those paid guys will. Microsoft wants to hear their feedback as well, otherwise why release it to the "public" ??

Well said!

And as I've pointed out here, on IRC and other places, the Start Panel really seems geared toward touch devices, and I'm disappointed that until now (at least) there's no mention of how this will benefit desktop users.

Someone replied to me in another thread that Microsoft will be pushing the start panel across the spectrum (including desktops) and in its current state, or what I can envision (better graphics, possibly side by side apps etc) it still makes me think that we're being forced onto what is ultimately a giant tablet or phone UI.

[PGHammer]

Wow no way, thats just changed my whole outlook on Metro, i am now a convert /s

Ive played with the Dev build and i despise the direction that its going, all the desktop and control elements simplified for the slate market, Windows Phone 7 isnt doing that great and if Microsoft think they can make a dent in the Android/IOS slate market with Windows 8 they are going to do it at all costs which means completely shafting over desktop PC users by making everything oversimplified, just look at the control panel ffs.

Immersive is different, and while hard to get used to (if you're used to a typical desktop GUI, even a non-Windows GUI), once you do, it's hard to return to what you had been using.

The resistance is expected - after all, the desktop GUI as we have known it (and been using it) has changed little in the past twenty years. By comparison, the original 9x shell (from Windows 95) has seen only incremental changes in the sixteen years it's been around and all *it* did was cement the desktop-centricity found in even Windows 3.x/NT 3.x.

I'm actually running the Developer Preview side-by-side (different hard drive) bare-metal on my otherwise traditional desktop, and controlling it with my traditional (though wireless and USB) keyboard and mouse. That means that, if I wanted to, I could actually migrate to the Developer Preview as my daily/main operating system.

Believe it or not, I'm actually seriously considering it!

I can understand why desktop users are far from fans of Immersive and Metro - it's NOT what they are used to. It's also why a desktop-centered UI won't work, and has never worked, on a tablet or slate - a different formfactor demands a different paradigm.

There is a lot of baggage involved with migrating from a desktop-centered GUI to a UI in this style (be it Metro/Immersive, or iOS, or even Windows Phone). This time, it's not Microsoft (or Apple, or (insert FOSS developer or team here)) bringing the baggage - it's us, the user community.

Do we stay in our confortable box? If so, stick with Windows 7. (Not even Microsoft expects the entire Windwos 7 userbase to migrate to what Windows 8 will eventually be called.)

[Elliott]

I think it's a great innovation for touch-screen tablets.

However, it just feels ridiculously clunky on a desktop. I really tried it for a while, and I still can't find any reason why I would use Immersive with a keyboard and mouse/trackpad.

Immersive is different, and while hard to get used to (if you're used to a typical desktop GUI, even a non-Windows GUI), once you do, it's hard to return to what you had been using.

The resistance is expected - after all, the desktop GUI as we have known it (and been using it) has changed little in the past twenty years. By comparison, the original 9x shell (from Windows 95) has seen only incremental changes in the sixteen years it's been around and all *it* did was cement the desktop-centricity found in even Windows 3.x/NT 3.x.

I'm actually running the Developer Preview side-by-side (different hard drive) bare-metal on my otherwise traditional desktop, and controlling it with my traditional (though wireless and USB) keyboard and mouse. That means that, if I wanted to, I could actually migrate to the Developer Preview as my daily/main operating system.

Believe it or not, I'm actually seriously considering it!

I can understand why desktop users are far from fans of Immersive and Metro - it's NOT what they are used to. It's also why a desktop-centered UI won't work, and has never worked, on a tablet or slate - a different formfactor demands a different paradigm.

There is a lot of baggage involved with migrating from a desktop-centered GUI to a UI in this style (be it Metro/Immersive, or iOS, or even Windows Phone). This time, it's not Microsoft (or Apple, or (insert FOSS developer or team here)) bringing the baggage - it's us, the user community.

Do we stay in our confortable box? If so, stick with Windows 7. (Not even Microsoft expects the entire Windwos 7 userbase to migrate to what Windows 8 will eventually be called.)

I'm sorry, but I don't agree at all. My problem isn't about not being able to get used to a new UI. My problem is about Immersive just looking and feeling ridiculous on a 27" screen. There's no reason I'd want to limit myself to one or even two apps on a 27" screen, and Immersive forces me into that.

On top of that, the interactions are just clunky when you're not using a finger. Right-click opens up menus that aren't under your mouse, you have to search for hidden panels by throwing your cursor into corners of the screen, switching apps isn't an easy and fluid experience, etc.

[Jen Smith]

So far, mostly liking it. Still getting used to it, but for what it is it's actually pretty handy, especially once you start extending/building onto the thing. Kind of reminds me of the old Active Desktop, or what it could have been if the technology would have been there at the time. Of course needs some refinements yet but it's a super early preview build, going to undergo some changes yet.. curious to see the later builds. Not sure yet if I'd keep it enabled on my work desktop (will wait for a later build to decide), but for a consumer OS it's looking very good, and it's pretty much a sure thing I'll be picking up a Win8 device instead of one of the alternatives in the future for the portable end.

[LaP]

IT'S A GOD DAMN TECH PREVIEW!!!

If work needs to be done i'm sure MS wants to know what people think about it.

By saying MS is perfect and is always perfect people do not help them at all. By saying hey it's a great idea but i would do this and that people are actually helping MS gives them a better final product.

[MS Bob 11]

A resounding NO!! Microsoft leave the Desktop alone. All your "innovations" in Vista and 7 will practically be wasted if you make this default UI.

[azure.sapphire]

Hey.. I havent' tried WIndows 8 preview but I can't imagine they will force us to use Metro on desktops if we don't want to. What about enterprise? How is corporate customer going to train their people to work on something like Metro.. it doesn't compute.

Microsoft has become so jealous of Apple that they are making very stupid decisions.

I like Metro UI but it is clearly intended for tablets and phones. If Microsoft doesn't allows us to turn off Metro for our desktop machines I most likely won't be upgrading to Windows 8.

I need Windows so I can use my professional apps and development tools in a usable manner and not some cheesy consumer experience. Microsoft saw Apple making a bucket load of money with iOS and now they think they need to make Windows 8 be completely consumer, dumb down OS.

I hope I'm wrong but all signs point to it now.

Stop whining, it looks unprofessional. No one cares whether you, me or anyone else is not going to upgrade unless you get your own way and have the classic desktop menu restored. I am sure back in the day there were a number of people who refused to depart from the old (Program Manager or dos prompt) for the Windows 95 UI. Hell, we just went through a mini phase with people refusing to abandon their XP for Vista/Win7. It, however, was a minority as generally people adapt to new circumstance. Well, at least in the first example..

As for corporate, I really grow sick of this. A new generation of youth are hitting the market in the next few years. This pushes the tech knowledgeable crowd of 20 and early 30 somethings into the mainstream workforce. Gen X (late 30s) and young baby boomers are going to be middle to upper management. The 60 and overcrowd will be retiring. I am pretty sure that a generation that grew up on Atari and Mario (or whatever) can figure out a little menu. This is not exactly statistics, college calculus or law class.

As for Microsoft seeing Apple iOS and Google Android as the reason, no they are just too early (bet on a different network technology) and then late to the game with the internet in the mid 90s. They realize the future is smartphones, tablets and the return of the television for most individuals will be their primary access point in the future. The legacy market will not exactly disappear any time soon. Honestly, I believe it might never truly go away (and that is a good thing - like developers or media professionals or power users) but it will not be a priority for most users. Writers, gamers and typical end users will move on.

As for customization, it's not like they are truly dumbing down the experience when they will be moving focus of end user configuration to the command line. I love the new server ideas. Hopefully, they will release a Vi like (only better) editor for actually doing work with files. The same, though upgraded command prompt (Powershell) will be available with Win8 like it is with Win7 today. That being said, it is way to early and very doubtful that they will completely remove the classic start menu or control panel for the joystick jockey crowd. These products are too ingrained to disappear right now... actually from the Windows I've seen (at least the control panel and Explorer) are getting a ribbon rebuild.

Honestly though, these improvements (adding ribbons and making the menus more, well simplified) will be for the general crowed. Power users and expert users will be moving to the command line. It is simply a lot easier to maintain a system and for the matter a network from the command line then the use of menus, ribbons or buttons.

Sorry if any of my comments sounded a bit harsh...

[Woelfel]

Honestly, I'm running it as my daily OS (still have win7 for stuff) just to see if I can get used to it and because most of my computer stuff is the web, coding, and IRC/IM...there's no big deal. Once I have an IRC/IM, the only reason why I would need to go back to desktop is for coding (oh and photoshop). Other than those two programs...I see no reason for me to be in desktop. You literally have to change the way you think.

[WelshBluebird]

I like it. It needs a lot of improvement, and needs things like multitouch gestures on trackpads, but certainly I think the general idea can work.

[The_Decimator]

I say it's amazing. TBH, it's pretty much what I've been asking for a long time now, replacing the traditional desktop metaphor that's been present in Windows UIs from Windows 95-7 with something vastly different.

[micro]

I like Metro UI but it is clearly intended for tablets and phones. If Microsoft doesn't allows us to turn off Metro for our desktop machines I most likely won't be upgrading to Windows 8.

This ^

I totally believe that this will be amazing for tablets and will blow the ipad away. But as a desktop replacement this is seriously a step backwards. I am a programmer and having this interface would impede my productivity. I have dual monitors for a reason. I want desktop real estate. I want to be able to have 6 windows open at once. I truly hope that this is merely an option and not the rule.

[~Johnny]

This ^

I totally believe that this will be amazing for tablets and will blow the ipad away. But as a desktop replacement this is seriously a step backwards. I am a programmer and having this interface would impede my productivity. I have dual monitors for a reason. I want desktop real estate. I want to be able to have 6 windows open at once. I truly hope that this is merely an option and not the rule.

How is it going to impede you as a programmer? None of your programming apps will be written for the Metro framework anyway, so you'll be perfectly fine having 6 Windows open on dual monitors. This does nothing to stop it at all. You'll probably only open it to do a search or open a program, just like the current start menu. And it's gone when you're back onto normal work. Infact, you could probably even have one app as a sidepanel and the rest as normal desktop if you want.

[jamesclarke555]

It's 'not my cup of tea' on the desktop side at least.

[PGHammer]

Like a lot of others here, I'm not a big fan of the UI as it stands on the desktop. On my laptop, it's easy enough to use if a little "clunky" because it doesn't feel as if it's been optimised for a mouse/keyboard experience at this particular point in time.

On a large monitor at 1920x1080, I just can't see it working well.

However, all this being said, I fully expect to see more come out when the Beta is finally released later on in the year. I'll reserve my judgement until then. Because this is purely aimed at developers for the time being, I can understand why most of the effort appears to have gone in to Metro - when this thing launches, they want a WHOLE raft of apps being available for it. Us desktop users who aren't so keen just need to sit back and wait to see what they come up with. A MASSIVE part of Microsoft's business are enterprise users, and I can't imagine this will be forced on them as is.

That's odd - that's exactly the monitor resolution (1920x1080) I have (in both 7 and the WDP), and I have no such issues with either.

That's also why I said it comes down to a comfort factor. While Metro/Immersive *can* be used with a standard keyboard and mouse (that is, in fact, what I'm using with it, and it is, of course, standard fare if you run WDP in a VM) the learning curve is rather large (and it is also one major reason why the WDP is aimed at developers, to be honest - high learning curves aren't scary to developers). Enterprise users are even more stick-in-the-mud than everyday users - such a massive paradigm shift would drive them barmy.

That said, there's a large amount of *baggage* involved in transitioning from desktop-centeredness (7 and earlier) to this sort of extremely non-desktop-centered UI; the difference is that it's the user (not the developer - Microsoft, in this case) that has brought the baggage with them.

[AussieAnon]

Definitely prefer the classic UI.

Microsoft's approach of having two different user interfaces and trying to put them together as one system feels wrong on a desktop. It feels clunky, rushed together and incomplete. Sseems really focused more for Tablets.

Why cant Microsoft just make it optional during setup?

[trenzterra]

its an irony that windows is moving away from windows, if you get what i mean...

i hate that the start panel is full screen. currently i use aero snap to snap videos to the right side of my screen, while doing some web browsing or work on the left side. i dont want something fullscreen to obstruct my video viewing. i mean, if you just want to find an app fast, i dont even want to see the user interface...

and metro doesnt really cut it on bigger screens. i mean, to go to a new webpage, i need to spend a few more clicks just to find the address bar. the tab bar is far too obstructive too. it wouldnt be much of an issue if i dont have to see it at all, but when launching IE from the start panel, the dunbed down metro version always launches instead.

[giantpotato]

I finally had a chance to play around with Windows 8 on my tablet pc, and left feeling somewhat disappointed.

Good things:

-The new on-screen keyboard is a huge improvement over the old one. It just feels much more responsive, especially with the audible click when you press the keys. Feels exactly like the ipad keyboard.

-Movement through the tile interface is great on a touch screen, very fluid movement between apps. Easy access to 'charms' by swiping from the sides of the screen.

-Scrolling and Pinch to zoom is a huge improvement over IE9. It's as responsive as the ipad now.

Bad things:

-The numbers/special symbols on the on-screen keyboard are on two different 'pages', which is a huge hassle switching between them when entering a long-password.

-Boot time seems the same as on Win7. It is nowhere as fast as shown during the demo. Maybe I need an ssd.

-Need to switch to the desktop to do anything 'productive'. It just feels disjointed needing to constantly switch between the two interfaces. I will probably test out the classic start menu tonight, to see if the experience is a little less jarring.

-No way to close an immersive app.

Bad stuff that will probably be fixed in RTM:

-Lack of Immersive apps. About the only useful apps at the moment for me are IE and Weather.

-No favorites in immersive IE?

-I have no idea how to manage stuff on the start page. How to get rid of/add apps/shortcuts?

-My Windows 8 just died after I installed some Windows Updates. It would boot up to the login screen, I would logon then it would just display an unresponsive black screen, ctrl-alt-del didn't even work. When rebooting I was given the option of System Restore, which didn't fix the problem and 'Refresh' which restores the original installation. Refresh worked and I was back up and running.

-Cant get the special buttons (rotate screen, brightness) on my tablet pc to work, even after installing the drivers.

So, in summary, I think Windows 8, will probably be a better alternative to the ipad/android tablets once the store is open and there are more immersive apps, but as for productivity (installing/using classic apps, changing control panel settings etc.), the need to constantly switch to the tile interface whenever accessing the start menu is quite the distraction.

With that said, there is definitely potential with the interface. Imagine an immersive Windows Media Center, or Immersive Steam connected to a living room TV. :woot:

Edit: Also, I seemed to have missed the point of this thread :pinch: On a tablet, alternative devices, the Immersive UI is great, on a desktop, for productivity, not so much.

[c.grz]

I'm going to be trying this on my Lenovo ThinkCentre M90z (Thanks Neowin!!! WOOT!!) which has touchscreen capabilities and we'll see how it plays out!!

[Max Norris]

I'm liking it, but I agree with those here that are preferring a more traditional desktop for the desktop systems.. I would love to get my hands on a tablet running this though, you can keep the phone OS's on the phones thanks. I wouldn't mind seeing three editions of this, a Metro only version (zero old desktop whatsoever, namely for mobile), a desktop only version for those that want the new bells and whistles the OS brings without the new interface, and one that has both. It's already been shown you can disable the thing, why not just make a version that makes everybody happy?

With that said, there is definitely potential with the interface. Imagine an immersive Windows Media Center, or Immersive Steam connected to a living room TV. :woot:

Indeed, the particular system I've got this test build running on is on one of my LCD TV's, and it looks great.

[cacoe]

It does effect the fact that a lot of people can't properly envision the concept. Microsoft haven't shipped the complete vision. They've shipped barebones preview apps which people are basing their entire impression of the concept on - the problem is, this build is not the "User Experience" - it's the "Developers go and create the user experience" build. Windows 8 isn't going to be shipping with this bunch of quickly prototyped and sumer intern made apps - these are showcases for developers, not show cases for end uses. The fact is the Metro start screen relies on it's apps to be what it is. Without the real apps - the bigger, completer, it's hard for people to judge properly. And the developers have to create those experiences before the users can properly objectively decide whether the like it's concept. That or just what ridiculous amounts of Build sessions to know what's going on :p

So, tell me what these new apps will do that current apps can't? I love the aesthetic of Metro but as a window management system (which it actually is not because there are no windows to manage, only tiles and screens), there are only limitations created. The only advantage of Metro that I can see at this point is full screen apps which could have been implemented just as well with a standard desktop (as Apple has already proven).

The only good I can imagine coming out of this is a more unified desktop with apps that actually all fit side by side in a way that makes sense visually and with their usability. That can't happen until the standard desktop is killed though.

[trenzterra]

How is it going to impede you as a programmer? None of your programming apps will be written for the Metro framework anyway, so you'll be perfectly fine having 6 Windows open on dual monitors. This does nothing to stop it at all. You'll probably only open it to do a search or open a program, just like the current start menu. And it's gone when you're back onto normal work. Infact, you could probably even have one app as a sidepanel and the rest as normal desktop if you want.

the thing is i find it too cumbersome just to find files through the start panel. if im running some real-time graphs or watching a video, the last thing i want is a full screen thing that blocks your whole view. which is why people disable uac and why i have to get used to pressing ctrl shoft esc in win7 instead of ctrl alt del to bypass the full screen page to get to task manager...

if they want to preserve the desktop experience i hope the old start menu makes its way back in.

[fix-this!]

metro has to go on the desktop version, whoever designed it needs to be fired! i just want a refined aero.

[PGHammer]

I finally had a chance to play around with Windows 8 on my tablet pc, and left feeling somewhat disappointed.

Good things:

-The new on-screen keyboard is a huge improvement over the old one. It just feels much more responsive, especially with the audible click when you press the keys. Feels exactly like the ipad keyboard.

-Movement through the tile interface is great on a touch screen, very fluid movement between apps. Easy access to 'charms' by swiping from the sides of the screen.

-Scrolling and Pinch to zoom is a huge improvement over IE9. It's as responsive as the ipad now.

Bad things:

-The numbers/special symbols on the on-screen keyboard are on two different 'pages', which is a huge hassle switching between them when entering a long-password.

-Boot time seems the same as on Win7. It is nowhere as fast as shown during the demo. Maybe I need an ssd.

-Need to switch to the desktop to do anything 'productive'. It just feels disjointed needing to constantly switch between the two interfaces. I will probably test out the classic start menu tonight, to see if the experience is a little less jarring.

-No way to close an immersive app.

Bad stuff that will probably be fixed in RTM:

-Lack of Immersive apps. About the only useful apps at the moment for me are IE and Weather.

-No favorites in immersive IE?

-I have no idea how to manage stuff on the start page. How to get rid of/add apps/shortcuts?

-My Windows 8 just died after I installed some Windows Updates. It would boot up to the login screen, I would logon then it would just display an unresponsive black screen, ctrl-alt-del didn't even work. When rebooting I was given the option of System Restore, which didn't fix the problem and 'Refresh' which restores the original installation. Refresh worked and I was back up and running.

-Cant get the special buttons (rotate screen, brightness) on my tablet pc to work, even after installing the drivers.

So, in summary, I think Windows 8, will probably be a better alternative to the ipad/android tablets once the store is open and there are more immersive apps, but as for productivity (installing/using classic apps, changing control panel settings etc.), the need to constantly switch to the tile interface whenever accessing the start menu is quite the distraction.

With that said, there is definitely potential with the interface. Imagine an immersive Windows Media Center, or Immersive Steam connected to a living room TV. :woot:

Edit: Also, I seemed to have missed the point of this thread :pinch: On a tablet, alternative devices, the Immersive UI is great, on a desktop, for productivity, not so much.

Favorites (and the adding thereof) are at the bottom (not the top) in Immersive IE (same thing with the Address bar, tab bar, etc.) - mouse-arrow to the bottom to bring those up.

I don't use the onscreen keyboard (which Windows 7 and Vista also have), since I'm running this on a desktop.

You can mouse-arrow up to close any app (Immersive or not) while in an Immersive app, or use Task Manager.

The lack of Immersive apps is the whole point to this big conference (and the three-ISO code drop - the largest ISO includes the Windows8/Phone/etc. SDK, with all the development tools, code samples, etc shown at BUILD, and the stuff needed to build your own apps).

If you know the name of the executable, you can simply run it - as has been the case since 9x and especially NT; Winkey+R still brings up the Run line (that's my method for Office applications, since I know the names of those executables). Don't know the name of the executable? Winkey+Q lets you search all accessible drives for it. Accessible from either the desktop or Immersive.

Some third-party applications (VLC and Firefox, for example) still place shortcuts on the desktop (which is just another application now) - they also gain tiles in Immersive as well.

It's why I've been saying that Immersive is nothing to be scared of, even without touch. There is a high learning curve - that I won't dispute; however, wasn't there the same learning curve when you first moved to a desktop GUI?

[cacoe]

Metro would be brilliant on desktop PCs as another user has already suggested in another thread if it were the desktop running with the current style explorer and not a separate entity at all.