Lets hear it! Iimmersive UI (Start Panel) in Windows 8 (Desktop) Good?

[Vice]

<br><br> I guess most complaints can be explained by... (although some are legit but unwarranted at this stage). <br>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese

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1. Powershell is now supposed to be primary interface for the server
2. How do you manage server from a tablet if the UI doesn't support touch?

1. You base that evidence on what? - Microsoft include three interfaces for Windows 8 Server.
2. I manage my servers with my iPad all the time. It's not difficult at all.

Furthermore for the 2nd thing I'd state that due to a lack of decent 3D hardware in most servers and the fact that RDP and VNC are both ill-equipped to stream 3D accelerated content that the Metro UI would be laggy and unusable when remoted by a tablet device.

[rajputwarrior]

1. You base that evidence on what? - Microsoft include three interfaces for Windows 7 Server.
2. I manage my servers with my iPad all the time. It's not difficult at all.

Furthermore for the 2nd thing I'd state that due to a lack of decent 3D hardware in most servers and the fact that RDP and VNC are both ill-equipped to stream 3D accelerated content that the Metro UI would be laggy and unusable when remoted by a tablet device.

yeah i use my asus tablet at work all the time for vmware servers and windows server adminstration (well quick administration tasks)...

[hougtimo]

Well today has been the first day I've used Windows 8 in anger, even though it is a tech demo.

I've spent the last 13 hours getting a server up and running (remote), coding some bits and bobs, transferring a couple of sites over and also general browsing etc...

I really can't fault the Metro UI for how I use my computer. Seriously, it's been flawless for me.

I do, however, wish that I could arrange two apps so each is taking up half of the screen space. Although flicking between them isn't a problem at all.

Genuinely love it.

[Gigi Buffon]

Sounds like you should ditch your PC and get a Tablet then...

I would, but there is simply no replacement for a keyboard. I can't code on a virtual keyboard.

[BajiRav]

1. You base that evidence on what? - Microsoft include three interfaces for Windows 8 Server.
2. I manage my servers with my iPad all the time. It's not difficult at all.

Furthermore for the 2nd thing I'd state that due to a lack of decent 3D hardware in most servers and the fact that RDP and VNC are both ill-equipped to stream 3D accelerated content that the Metro UI would be laggy and unusable when remoted by a tablet device.

It was in one of the build reports that I read, I wish I could recall where but that also mentioned that there are 2000+ new cmdlets to manage server using powershell. I think exchange server 2010 already follows that approach.

The server metro UI (guessing since I haven't used it) probably will not be as flashy as client. Remember it doesn't need 3D animations for it to be "metro".

In any case, all Win8 tablets will be accelerated and the remote desktop session now supports touch so MS is building it up from all sides.

Edit: here you go: http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/09/windows-server-8-built-for-the-cloud-built-for-virtualization.ars

Server Manager provides a convenient GUI, but behind the scenes, PowerShell commands are constructed and executed. The commands can also be copied, edited, and executed directly in PowerShell. This should sound familiar to many Windows administrators, as Exchange already uses this style of management, with the GUI being a mere layer over PowerShell.

The same mechanism is used to administer multiple machines simultaneously; it makes remote PowerShell calls to multiple machines, allowing actions to be performed on them in parallel. To enable this, PowerShell has been expanded with more than 2,000 new commands.

Well today has been the first day I've used Windows 8 in anger, even though it is a tech demo.

I've spent the last 13 hours getting a server up and running (remote), coding some bits and bobs, transferring a couple of sites over and also general browsing etc...

I really can't fault the Metro UI for how I use my computer. Seriously, it's been flawless for me.

I do, however, wish that I could arrange two apps so each is taking up half of the screen space. Although flicking between them isn't a problem at all.

Genuinely love it.

did you try using snap? whle it won't be half the screen but at least you can use two apps.

[giantpotato]

^ This, because MS just changes things for no reason right? Even when they give you solid user data they've collected, often from years of usage, as to why they made the change they did it seems most people on tech sites know better than anyone else. I'll let the finished product and the market speak for itself at this point. I'm fine using the new start screen even with just the keyboard now that i've got all the shortcuts worked out, don't even need a mouse really.

As to the "closing of metro apps" I said this in a few other topics, the OS closes metro apps automatically after 30secs if you move away from them. You don't have to close them via task manager or anything, just alt+tab to another app or hit winky+D to go back to the desktop OR just hit the windows key again to take you back to start. The app WILL CLOSE ON IT'S OWN.

How does multitasking work then? Say I open up IE and Socialite and want to keep them both open, I spend more than 30 seconds in IE and it will close Socialite on it's own?

The opposite is also true, say I open sudoku by mistake and am multitasking between two other apps, When I'm 'flicking' between apps by swiping the left side of the screen I'm going to have to flick through the sudoku app to get to the one I want, which is extra work for nothing.

The problem with that is I would like to control what I have open, I don't want the os decide for me.

[PGHammer]

agree with the bold part. and if they shove metro on a server OS they must have made a quick road trip to vancouver because they must be smoking some amazing crap to think any IT admin in their right mind would want any of that crap...

also agree with the second part. i thuoght lion dumb things down (iOS features in a desktop OS) but microsoft is taking it on a whole new level.

I effin hate the star panel. if this is the direction they are going, they must really think desktop computer is already pretty much dead.

For all of you insisting that the default UI for *desktops* (not tablet PCs or slates) stay basically unchanged, answer the following - what part of Microsoft's press releases leading up to BUILD have you been ignoring? OR have you basically been ignoring all of it, because it hasn't been what you wanted to hear?

This Developer Preview is Metro design/Immersive-centric for a reason - exactly how many apps for tablets and slates are there? Simple answer - other than what's included, there aren't any!

Here's a thought for all of you moaning and groaning over the lack of a desktop-centric UI as the default or even an option and used one of the hacks to get rid of Immersive and go back to the way things have been with Windows 7 - open up Task Manager and take a look at the metrics with the desktop-centric UI. Are the figures the same, better for desktop-centered, or worse for desktop-centered?

If the figures are the same or better for desktop-centered, then you may (and that is still up in the air) have a point; however, the qualifier is that Metro's design language, and the Immersive UI, by and large don't damage Classic applications. (So far, going by the posts on Neowin, a grand total of a single Classic application - Skype - broke. How many Vista and lower applications broke in Windows 7's first Developer Preview? How many XP applications broke in Longhorn?) The fact that not a single Classic application that I use for any significant period either broke, or lost function, in Immersive, means that existing applications are far from tied to the desktop-centric UI that has been Windows to date. On the other hand, if the metrics are actually *worse*, that means that desktop-centeredness *itself* is an issue. And if desktop-centeredness is the issue, it's not on Microsoft (remember, Immersive isn't normally desktop-centric). It's not even developers (basically, even Classic applications could care less). And if it's not the OS, or the apps, that means that it's the users.

And as far as your complaints about Lion, true - Lion (as Snow Leopard tried to do also) has tried to move away from desktop-centricity with Launchpad (Snow Leopard's effort was Front Row). The pushback in the Mac community (as it has been here) has been pretty darn fierce. I've run both Snow Leopard *and* Lion (on demo Macs at Apple dealers, and at Apple Stores), and on the very same drive now hosting the Developer Preview. Launch Pad is better than Front Row for one big reason - better application compatibility. However, Immersive, unlike either, works with any application - basically, it's MUCH better than Launch Pad from a standpoint of application-compatibility.

More proof - I just ran the HL2 Lost Coast video stress test at the desktop resolution (1920x1080) with all detail settings maxed. The GPU (AMD HD5450 512 MB GDDR3) is as basic as DX11 hardware gets and is normally deployed in notebooks and laptops - of two years ago. I actually broke my personal best on this hardware (going from 47 fps to 56) - and all I changed was the operating system. (+1 for the Developer Preview.)

For all the moaning and groaning about the UI, Microsoft apparently got a lot right with the underpinnings, given not only the lack of breakage (or in some cases, actual improvement) even with existing hardware and applications.

[Sebass]

People get used to anything we will get used to this whole concept. We are all reluctant to change especially when we get older.

I find it interesting and I am sure it will have its shortcomings but today's desktops are showing other shortcomings as well.

[~Johnny]

How does multitasking work then? Say I open up IE and Socialite and want to keep them both open, I spend more than 30 seconds in IE and it will close Socialite on it's own?

The opposite is also true, say I open sudoku by mistake and am multitasking between two other apps, When I'm 'flicking' between apps by swiping the left side of the screen I'm going to have to flick through the sudoku app to get to the one I want, which is extra work for nothing.

The problem with that is I would like to control what I have open, I don't want the os decide for me.

They don't close - after 5 seconds of having the app off screen, all CPU is cut off to it (there are certain exceptions if the app needs it). It's still loaded in RAM, it's just waiting for you. (You could always just snap one to the side if you're multitasking) :p

You might as well give up control - it doesn't make any difference. Windows is smart enough to close any suspended Metro apps when you actually need more RAM, rather than leaving 70% of the RAM you paid for doing nothing. It doesn't slow down your system, it doesn't bog down your system. It's just there, being snappy. (And obviously, if you are using 90% of your RAM at all times, it won't suspend so many apps)

[Woelfel]

For you "productivity" people. You say you hate the UI, that's fine, you want to stay in Windows 7. That's fine. Now, here's a tip if you want to keep your precious desktop UI with Win 8 without hacking anything. Clear your start menu besides the first application that you will open. When you login, click that tile. Your desktop application will open (just like it would in Windows 7 because you have to click it) and you're in your in your favorite UI. And guess what, you can stay there...but now you have all the good stuff UNDERNEATHE Windows 8. You have your taskbar and all of your windows you can open. You can even have dual-tri monitoring if you so please.

So you say, what's the point? The stuff underneathe is the point and the future is the point. You have a better Windows 7...which in effect what all of you (who don't like the UI) want. Am I incorrect? The Immersive UI as of this moment can't switch as fast as using the taskbar to switch in between application (with 1 click). I can totally understand that as I felt the same way. The fastest way...as of developer preview...is hitting win key, then typing your app name and pressing enter. It may seem like a lot, but I don't have to lift my hand to use mouse to click (granted it's not as fast as win + #) It works quite faster than it sounds. But if you want to use mouse. Have your favorite app near the beginning of the start menu. Just click win and click on your app. Boom, open, fast. Productivity goes down because of an extra click? I don't think so. Now I will agree on the multiple apps open at the same time. Only time will tell with that one. You can however, have multiple monitors and one be the desktop and one is the start menu. Those are just tips though.

I believe most people just don't like the LOOK of it more than anything.

[Detection]

Im sure it will be improved upon by RTM, but I have given it 2 full days 16 hours a day, with the Tiled UI (Metro) enabled, using it as much as I could, and my final thoughts:

It Sucks

It makes everything 10 x more difficult than before, it makes me say "sh*t" when I hit start thinking Im gonna get a normal menu, it makes getting to settings and different parts of the OS very annoying. And it just does not match the rest of Windows at all, it looks like a cheesy 3rd party plugin for Nexus Dock or something.

I'm not scared of change, I love new features and new OS's and Im always first in line to download and replace old with new, this... not so much

If they made 2 versions of Windows, like Ubuntu used to do, Metro for touch, and Useful UI for normal people and normal PCs it would work better, or at least leave it as an "Ultimate Extra" lol

I gave it a try, I didn't like it - I`ll give it a try again with all the future releases to see if it starts to become good, but if it is like this in RTM, i`ll be deleting shsxs.dll for good.

[ToneKnee]

For anyone who is curious. If you move your mouse cursor to the left hand side of the screen to the very edge (where you usually click and drag to bring back the previous screen), if you click and hold on that area, you can use the mouse wheel to scroll through previous windows.

[JonathanVP]

After playing with the Developer Edit on a VM and then on a spare laptop, at first I didn't like the new Start Panel and Metro. But after several hours, I am getting used to it. The start panel does take some time to get used to (like getting used to the ribbon interface in Offce) but now I have no problems with it.

[Detection]

For anyone who is curious. If you move your mouse cursor to the left hand side of the screen to the very edge (where you usually click and drag to bring back the previous screen), if you click and hold on that area, you can use the mouse wheel to scroll through previous windows.

Ive turned tiles off now, but I think Windows Key + Tab cycles through them too

[giantpotato]

They don't close - after 5 seconds of having the app off screen, all CPU is cut off to it (there are certain exceptions if the app needs it). It's still loaded in RAM, it's just waiting for you. (You could always just snap one to the side if you're multitasking) :p

You might as well give up control - it doesn't make any difference. Windows is smart enough to close any suspended Metro apps when you actually need more RAM, rather than leaving 70% of the RAM you paid for doing nothing. It doesn't slow down your system, it doesn't bog down your system. It's just there, being snappy. (And obviously, if you are using 90% of your RAM at all times, it won't suspend so many apps)

I don't care if it puts things into suspension. This works fine for me. I couldn't care less about performance of simple apps. My problem is, lets say I'm finished using an app (ex. sudoku) and want to switch between other apps, sudoku will always be there when using the equivalent of win+Tab to flip between open apps, until windows decides to get rid of it. What is the downside to being able to exit an application I'm finished with and don't want to see on my screen anymore? I know when I'm finished using an application, windows doesn't.

For you "productivity" people. You say you hate the UI, that's fine, you want to stay in Windows 7. That's fine. Now, here's a tip if you want to keep your precious desktop UI with Win 8 without hacking anything. Clear your start menu besides the first application that you will open. When you login, click that tile. Your desktop application will open (just like it would in Windows 7 because you have to click it) and you're in your in your favorite UI. And guess what, you can stay there...but now you have all the good stuff UNDERNEATHE Windows 8. You have your taskbar and all of your windows you can open. You can even have dual-tri monitoring if you so please.

...Until you want to access something that has traditionally been on the Start menu. Then you have a FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU moment ;)

[Dusco25]

Windows 8 will be a bigger disaster than Windows ME.

[rajputwarrior]

For all of you insisting that the default UI for *desktops* (not tablet PCs or slates) stay basically unchanged, answer the following - what part of Microsoft's press releases leading up to BUILD have you been ignoring? OR have you basically been ignoring all of it, because it hasn't been what you wanted to hear?

This Developer Preview is Metro design/Immersive-centric for a reason - exactly how many apps for tablets and slates are there? Simple answer - other than what's included, there aren't any!

Here's a thought for all of you moaning and groaning over the lack of a desktop-centric UI as the default or even an option and used one of the hacks to get rid of Immersive and go back to the way things have been with Windows 7 - open up Task Manager and take a look at the metrics with the desktop-centric UI. Are the figures the same, better for desktop-centered, or worse for desktop-centered?

If the figures are the same or better for desktop-centered, then you may (and that is still up in the air) have a point; however, the qualifier is that Metro's design language, and the Immersive UI, by and large don't damage Classic applications. (So far, going by the posts on Neowin, a grand total of a single Classic application - Skype - broke. How many Vista and lower applications broke in Windows 7's first Developer Preview? How many XP applications broke in Longhorn?) The fact that not a single Classic application that I use for any significant period either broke, or lost function, in Immersive, means that existing applications are far from tied to the desktop-centric UI that has been Windows to date. On the other hand, if the metrics are actually *worse*, that means that desktop-centeredness *itself* is an issue. And if desktop-centeredness is the issue, it's not on Microsoft (remember, Immersive isn't normally desktop-centric). It's not even developers (basically, even Classic applications could care less). And if it's not the OS, or the apps, that means that it's the users.

And as far as your complaints about Lion, true - Lion (as Snow Leopard tried to do also) has tried to move away from desktop-centricity with Launchpad (Snow Leopard's effort was Front Row). The pushback in the Mac community (as it has been here) has been pretty darn fierce. I've run both Snow Leopard *and* Lion (on demo Macs at Apple dealers, and at Apple Stores), and on the very same drive now hosting the Developer Preview. Launch Pad is better than Front Row for one big reason - better application compatibility. However, Immersive, unlike either, works with any application - basically, it's MUCH better than Launch Pad from a standpoint of application-compatibility.

More proof - I just ran the HL2 Lost Coast video stress test at the desktop resolution (1920x1080) with all detail settings maxed. The GPU (AMD HD5450 512 MB GDDR3) is as basic as DX11 hardware gets and is normally deployed in notebooks and laptops - of two years ago. I actually broke my personal best on this hardware (going from 47 fps to 56) - and all I changed was the operating system. (+1 for the Developer Preview.)

For all the moaning and groaning about the UI, Microsoft apparently got a lot right with the underpinnings, given not only the lack of breakage (or in some cases, actual improvement) even with existing hardware and applications.

when did i say it was? (i just ignored the rest of your post because you completely put words in my mouth) i'll quote what i said earlier...

IMO it looks like **** at best right now and they don't give a crap about PC users in this build. it is only a dev preview so i am presuming that will change (i hope so for their sake).

but really skipping a Microsoft OS release isn't a big deal for me, done it a couple of times before (ME, Vista) as i love windows 7 and i am more then happy with it.

(Y)

nevermind. i read it again. you should really look into what Front Row because you just made yourself look like a complete idiot comparing it to Launch Pad.

[Aergan]

I like where it's going. Integrate all services, start afresh with the UI.

Development tools availible for free these days from Microsoft would have cost ???'s 10-12 years ago.

[~Johnny]

Windows 8 will be a bigger disaster than Windows ME.

ME was a disaster because it crashed or didn't work properly half the time. Windows 8 works, with better performance than 7 and Vista, and a lot of people love it.

[Denos]

I think MS is doing Metro interface to be default because they want to move the technology forward - more touchscreen desktops.

Before Vista, noone had 4GB+ of RAM but since Vista was using more RAM than XP, 4GB+ is a normal thing today.

Edit: And remember, they have not shown all the features yet for example speech recognition and kinect support.

I have been using this developer preview for 1 day and most time I'm on the "classic" desktop but I like metro interface and I think it just needs some sort of "taskbar" for fast switching applications and to see activity of the open apps and I will switch to full Metro usage. When I will have to do some advanced stuff, I will just switch to "classic" with one click :)

[+Ryster Subscriber²]

* Metro UI is the tiled interface, that replaces the desktop.

/facepalm

It doesn't replace the desktop at all for Pete's sake. It just replaces the start menu, in fact it doesn't even do that per se. It IS the start menu, hence the word Start at the top.

The only difference with this as compared to Windows 7 is that Windows loads straight into the Start Menu now. You then just close it by pressing the Windows button and you're right at the desktop, not replaced in the slightest.

Personally I think you, and several others just don't understand it. Sure it works a little differently and takes a bit of getting used to, but isn't that the same of anything that changes in technology? If you want something that looks like and works the same as Windows 7, then use Windows 7. Simples.

[PGHammer]

when did i say it was? (i just ignored the rest of your post because you completely put words in my mouth) i'll quote what i said earlier...

(Y)

nevermind. i read it again. you should really look into what Front Row because you just made yourself look like a complete idiot comparing it to Launch Pad.

I compared it to Launch Pad (and to Front Row) in that both are (as stated by Apple itself) attempts to move the center of focus in their respective OSes away from the desktop. Launch Pad is, in point of fact, the Lion-specific successor to Front Row (made all the more plain by Front Row being missing in Lion). Launch Pad is friendlier to existing OS X applications than Front Row (and I'm speaking as someone that has used both); however, even Launch Pad has its issues as far as application-compatibility goes.

However, the majority of the pushback (in terms of both) has nothing to do with application-compatibility, but everything to do with moving the central focus away from the desktop. There's been a similar pushback in the UNIX/Linux community with similar attempts (Unity and GNOME Shell in particular).

That is why I said that the issue is not Immersive per se - especially because Immersive doesn't require applications to be rewritten to be usable in it.

[Guest]

I think MS is doing Metro interface to be default because they want to move the technology forward - more touchscreen desktops.

Before Vista, noone had 4GB+ of RAM but since Vista was using more RAM than XP, 4GB+ is a normal thing today.

Edit: And remember, they have not shown all the features yet for example speech recognition and kinect support.

I have been using this developer preview for 1 day and most time I'm on the "classic" desktop but I like metro interface and I think it just needs some sort of "taskbar" for fast switching applications and to see activity of the open apps and I will switch to full Metro usage. When I will have to do some advanced stuff, I will just switch to "classic" with one click :)

Not due to the fact that Vista required that much RAM to run well, specs stats and figures are sort of expected to rise and get cheaper, that's why it's standard.

Forcing everyone to buy a touchscreen monitor isn't quite the same thing as that.

[rajputwarrior]

I compared it to Launch Pad (and to Front Row) in that both are (as stated by Apple itself) attempts to move the center of focus in their respective OSes away from the desktop. Launch Pad is, in point of fact, the Lion-specific successor to Front Row (made all the more plain by Front Row being missing in Lion). Launch Pad is friendlier to existing OS X applications than Front Row (and I'm speaking as someone that has used both); however, even Launch Pad has its issues as far as application-compatibility goes.

However, the majority of the pushback (in terms of both) has nothing to do with application-compatibility, but everything to do with moving the central focus away from the desktop. There's been a similar pushback in the UNIX/Linux community with similar attempts (Unity and GNOME Shell in particular).

That is why I said that the issue is not Immersive per se - especially because Immersive doesn't require applications to be rewritten to be usable in it.

when did apple say that? cause one's a failed attempt to bring the iOS launcher to OSX and ther other's a poor man's version of windows media center.

[Guest]

/facepalm

It doesn't replace the desktop at all for Pete's sake. It just replaces the start menu, in fact it doesn't even do that per se. It IS the start menu, hence the word Start at the top.

The only difference with this as compared to Windows 7 is that Windows loads straight into the Start Menu now. You then just close it by pressing the Windows button and you're right at the desktop, not replaced in the slightest.

Personally I think you, and several others just don't understand it. Sure it works a little differently and takes a bit of getting used to, but isn't that the same of anything that changes in technology? If you want something that looks like and works the same as Windows 7, then use Windows 7. Simples.

It isn't just the start menu because Metro native apps are totally different to standard desktop apps. They're full screen and as of now can only be seen at a max of 2 in a split screen view. I'm getting tired of the old "it's not what you think it is" argument.

In it's entirety when it's complete and we're a year down the line with a slew of native apps, a whole new window manager. I understand the current crap included apps are just examples, they emphasis this plenty of times during BUILD but eventually, those apps will be replaced by real free and commercial apps that at the most fundamental level, work in the same way as the current included ones.

Call it what you want but if you look at the new "experience" in it's entirety, it might as well be labeled a new shell.