Why didn't MS segregate the tablet UI from the desktop UI?

[XX55XX]

Nothing stock is good enough for a Power User. Power Users tinker.

Your mentioning of the steps required to get to desktop control panel in Windows 8 were horribly wrong.. the Settings charm is context sensitive, you hover to the charms bar and press the cog.. Control Panel opens. Simple.

All you have demonstrated is that you either aren't really a power user, or you haven't researched how to use the UI enough.

You can't expect something to be intuitive when you are using old habits from previous OS versions. Think of the difference between Office 2003 and 2007.. the ribbon I think you'll agree in hindsight is a lot better, but at the time it forced people to abandon old habbits.

The Ribbon is beautiful and functional all at the same time. I loved it from Day 1.

Metro, however, is not.

[MorganX]

Precisely what I am saying.

Like it or not, the classic desktop is a dying concept to Microsoft

I didn't catch that part, and that is critical. We agree 100% on that. Microsoft is killing it, not because it doesn't work, because they "need" something else to help them compete in other areas.

Let's face it, MS had tablet computing first and dropped the ball, why? Because the Desktop Explorer interface which works so well just doesn't work on a tablet. I have an HP Slate that is collecting dust. I'll put 8 on it soon.

The thing is, if a super Desktop interface didn't work on tablets, why would MS think a touch interface would work that well on a Desktop. IMO, I think they know it doesn and they've gone to all four corners of the screen to "make" it work because they need people to become familiar and comfortable with Metro to try and move into the tablet space Apple and Android dominate.

My favorite part of Metro on Desktop, the messenger live tile which could simply be a gadget in Windows 7, lol.

Metro is very cool, and a HUD metro overlaying the desktop would be even cooler, but still never as efficient IMO, as Start Menu/Taskbar.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!

PS: I am so happy with the Windows 8 theme and square corners on Windows 7. I'm definitely not letting go at home at least until 8SP1. Curiously, the UI is really faster all around, I wonder if the user pic on the Start Menu was using that much GDI resources??? It wasn't slow, but it's blazing now. Perhaps there were 32-bit elements, I have no clue but it's welcome.

[DarkyDan]

The Ribbon is beautiful and functional all at the same time. I loved it from Day 1.

Metro, however, is not.

Maybe I'm putting too much hope into the content, and 3rd party apps. The solid and simple colours aren't particularly pretty, there is no way to sugar coat the appearance of the tiles... hopefully skinning apps will offer an alternative.

since it's a Preview I look at it more from a 'potential' standpoint. I can envisage the Start Screen being insanely more useful than the start menu ever was (someone mentioned accordian menus.. those pauses are more lost time than moving a mouse across a screen in a metro app)

[djdanster]

Nothing stock is good enough for a Power User. Power Users tinker.

Your mentioning of the steps required to get to desktop control panel in Windows 8 were horribly wrong.. the Settings charm is context sensitive, you hover to the charms bar and press the cog.. Control Panel opens. Simple.

All you have demonstrated is that you either aren't really a power user, or you haven't researched how to use the UI enough.

You can't expect something to be intuitive when you are using old habits from previous OS versions. Think of the difference between Office 2003 and 2007.. the ribbon I think you'll agree in hindsight is a lot better, but at the time it forced people to abandon old habbits.

The method you suggested opens the Metro Settings and not the full Control Panel.

TBH, I prefer the ribbon interface. It made everything much easier to do while improving the design :). That's what the Metro UI is trying to do, it's simply not 100% there yet for desktop users. I find switching between Metro and doing file management is very annoying. To do it properly, Metrofy the Explorer more and make it a Metro app at the least (still keeping the traditional desktop variant).

[MorganX]

Where exactly does it lose it's functionality?

He probably should have said efficency, but easily closing Windows is a big one for me. Yeah, I don't need to close apps for resources, sometimes I just want to close them. It's easier for me to close with Metro behind that go to corner and go back to start or hit start. And closing by dragging all the way to bottom of screen or brinning up previous app menu, finding app, moving over thumbnail, right clicking and selecting close is nonsense. Just X.

[DarkyDan]

The method you suggested opens the Metro Settings and not the full Control Panel.

TBH, I prefer the ribbon interface. It made everything much easier to do while improving the design :). That's what the Metro UI is trying to do, it's simply not 100% there yet for desktop users. I find switching between Metro and doing file management is very annoying. To do it properly, Metrofy the Explorer more and make it a Metro app at the least (still keeping the traditional desktop variant).

Metro Explorer was also something I thought was missing when I first used the Dev Preview... I don't care if it's doubling up.. the Desktop is just there to support "legacy" apps. They wouldn't call it explorer of course it would be 'File Manager' again or something. I think Facebook, Twitter, and Steam would all present well in a metro app form... and a Metro Minecraft Launcher :3

[MorganX]

so what you guys who want the start menu back are saying is "we should stay the same forever and never attempt to evolve to a new level"? because that's all I keep hearing

The problem isn't that people don't want to change or evolve. The problems is that in the case of the Metro/Dekstop hybrid UI, many feel we have devolved. Something Windows has never done before and most are not accustomed to doing.

No one can actually say how Metro is better only that you can do everything you could do in Windows 7 with a little more work, i.e. sliding, gliding, dragging, clicking, keyboard shortcutting.

The tablet apps are nice but in no way worth the hassle and most live tiles could be gadgets. So tell me how, on the desktop, this hybrid Metro/Desktop is an "evolution" improving upon the current UI and making us more productive? I'm all ears, sell me. And we agree Metro is an evolution on touch devices. We're talking Desktop PCs. How does this Metro implementation move us forward and make things more productive and efficient? Sell me ...

PS: For the record, for my personal use, I'll never go from Windows 7 to 3 Bars (Charm, Previous App, and Context Sensitive at Bottom of Screen with 4 hot corners) and do all that unecessary clicking, dragging, etc. Nor be forced to run apps in full screen or browse in landscape. I know I can go legacy IE but now I'm going back and forth between UI metaphors and there's no auto-hide currently. I'll go get me a Mac again (unless they copy) before I waste time an energy with all that unecessary nonsense to help MS break into the tablet market.

[XX55XX]

Again, I think most of us know why this is happening:

It's all about the developers. Creating one UI for the smartphone, tablet, and PC encourages code reuse. Win32 will give way to WinRT.

Not good news for the user, however.

[MorganX]

Again, I think most of us know why this is happening:

It's all about the developers. Creating one UI for the smartphone, tablet, and PC encourages code reuse. Win32 will give way to WinRT.

Not good news for the user, however.

And MS already dominates the PC Market. These changes aren't because they are needed on the Desktop, they are to help MS build their presence in the other two markets where they are in last place, smartphone & tablet. However, with a Desktop monopoly, for all intents and purposes, they can pretty much do it.

[DarkyDan]

He probably should have said efficency, but easily closing Windows is a big one for me. Yeah, I don't need to close apps for resources, sometimes I just want to close them. It's easier for me to close with Metro behind that go to corner and go back to start or hit start. And closing by dragging all the way to bottom of screen or brinning up previous app menu, finding app, moving over thumbnail, right clicking and selecting close is nonsense. Just X.

Yeah the drag down method is a bit dorky. Not the end of the world, but it's something that could be improved for desktop users, if they feel the need

[Woelfel]

Yes, the desktop is the 2nd class citizen. You want to know why? Easy, it's not good for average users. Average users like simple stuff and "shiny" things. The Metro style UI helps with the complication of the desktop UI. They won't totally abandon the desktop because the desktop is information heavy and that's where you can create stuff (not saying you can't with Metro style apps) that require a lot of things up at once. They know that a lot of people have traditional applications and are somewhat familiar with the desktop.

They are not changing for the sake of change, they are changing to make computers easier to use for the average consumer. Yes, the start button is gone, deal with it. It's not going to come back (which is why I say deal with it). It is now the start screen. Why? Because the start button is already on your keyboard, in the charms bar, and on the lower left corner of every single application (since it lives outside of those applications).

The new UI (aka the start screen), the new application platform (WinRT), the new store, the four corners and a drag (for closing apps) are all for making average consumer's life easier. The desktop is an application that will still have the functionality it had before. It's just that it's no longer at the top of the list (even though they added a bunch of things to help improve the desktop...everyone complains about the start menu).

There are still many use cases for the desktop, but it's not for the average consumer, therefore...#2.

I for one will be happy with Metro only apps, I plan on getting my parents a WOA device. They don't have to deal with the desktop unless it's for Office. I don't even want them to try to get to the desktop. Just stay in Metro, browse the internet in Metro. I belong in the desktop because I do a lot of things at once for software development. Metro still isn't hurting me.

[MorganX]

Yes, the desktop is the 2nd class citizen. You want to know why? Easy, it's not good for average users. Average users like simple stuff and "shiny" things. The Metro style UI helps with the complication of the desktop UI. They won't totally abandon the desktop because the desktop is information heavy and that's where you can create stuff (not saying you can't with Metro style apps) that require a lot of things up at once. They know that a lot of people have traditional applications and are somewhat familiar with the desktop.

They are not changing for the sake of change, they are changing to make computers easier to use for the average consumer. Yes, the start button is gone, deal with it. It's not going to come back (which is why I say deal with it). It is now the start screen. Why? Because the start button is already on your keyboard, in the charms bar, and on the lower left corner of every single application (since it lives outside of those applications).

The new UI (aka the start screen), the new application platform (WinRT), the new store, the four corners and a drag (for closing apps) are all for making average consumer's life easier. The desktop is an application that will still have the functionality it had before. It's just that it's no longer at the top of the list (even though they added a bunch of things to help improve the desktop...everyone complains about the start menu).

There are still many use cases for the desktop, but it's not for the average consumer, therefore...#2.

I for one will be happy with Metro only apps, I plan on getting my parents a WOA device. They don't have to deal with the desktop unless it's for Office. I don't even want them to try to get to the desktop. Just stay in Metro, browse the internet in Metro. I belong in the desktop because I do a lot of things at once for software development. Metro still isn't hurting me.

In it's totality, I actually basically agree with you 100%. The danger here for MS is that a majority of those users may fit into one of two categories:

1) Because they don't want or need a full blown desktop will buy a tablet or use their smartphone anyway

2) Can't afford a full blown PC and will buy a tablet or user their smartphone anyway

In the meantime, MS has destroyed a great UI for those who do need and can afford a full blown PC, and alienated them by putting their corporate agenda ahead of what works for the customer and what many of them want. 8 should have made Metro UI an option and 9 should have dictated Metro (provided it succeeds in 8, you must not forget the fates of WindowsME and Vista). I'm not happy at all about MS forcing something "not" clearly better on me. Luckily I'm quite happy with Windows 7 but we know that can only last for so long as apps are optimized for 8 or go Metro native. I may even put my SIM back in my iPhone, seriously. The more I use it and determine MS "has" to know this is a kludge implementation, the more unhappy I get.

[BajiRav]

Don't worry about us power users. We won't be upgrading to it anyway. I think it is pretty clear from Neowins recent front page poll where almost 60% of respondents said they would not use Windows 8 speaks for itself when it comes to power users. And I think it would be fair to say Neowin is made up of a majority of "power users". In-fact I think the term power users is a bit silly. What we are is geeks. We are people that care so much about our computers that we signed up to a forum dedicated to computers and we discuss at length computers. We are computer geeks and the majority of the computer geeks on this forum have said nay to this operating system, I'm not talking for everyone I'm letting the poll from the front page do that.

You know what WinRT apps are? Dumbed down tablet applications that lack the complexity and granular controls of full desktop software. That is what WinRT apps are. ****ty apps.

I hate saying this but I think "power users" like you are...how to say this... plain stupid. :D If you are a power user as you claim, you should be able to figure out that traditionally Windows users can login by dismissing "lock screen" (surprise, Apple didn't invent lock screen as you claimed in this thread) with Ctrl + Alt + Del.

Any "power user" who can't figure out keyboard or simple mouse gestures is a freaking dumb user.

Don't want to be insulting, but if you are really power user - customize the power user menu in Windows 8 and make it look like Win7 start menu. Done.

/end rant :p

[Dot Matrix]

That is far off into the future, and it might not even happen.

It's not that far off, and yes, the time will come where Win32 disappears completely. Computers aren't going to stay keyboard and mouse forever.

[XX55XX]

Power user is a misnomer. Conservative geeks are a better term. Some of us don't like UI changes much.

[MorganX]

It's not that far off, and yes, the time will come where Win32 disappears completely. Computers aren't going to stay keyboard and mouse forever.

Keyboards will out live mice and Win32. They will be around, a long long time. With holography, voice rec, whatever, you will have some form of keyboard. Can't very well have a whole office talkign to their PCs all day, nor do you want to dictate business emails much, etc. etc.

[Woelfel]

In it's totality, I actually basically agree with you 100%. The danger here for MS is that a majority of those users may fit into one of two categories:

1) Because they don't want or need a full blown desktop will buy a tablet or use their smartphone anyway

2) Can't afford a full blown PC and will buy a tablet or user their smartphone anyway

In the meantime, MS has destroyed a great UI for those who do need and can afford a full blown PC, and alienated them by putting their corporate agenda ahead of what works for the customer and what many of them want. 8 should have made Metro UI an option and 9 should have dictated Metro (provided it succeeds in 8, you must not forget the fates of WindowsME and Vista). I'm not happy at all about MS forcing something "not" clearly better on me. Luckily I'm quite happy with Windows 7 but we know that can only last for so long as apps are optimized for 8 or go Metro native. I may even put my SIM back in my iPhone, seriously. The more I use it and determine MS "has" to know this is a kludge implementation, the more unhappy I get.

You're correct, they did alienate them. As a niche market, they will support them, but they will not get everything at first because they aren't the number one priorty. Yea,

[redfish]

Because the Start Screen isn't a tablet-only UI. I made a topic on this board earlier showing how Microsoft was planning this type of interface before tablets were even on the radar.

[MorganX]

You're correct, they did alienate them. As a niche market, they will support them, but they will not get everything at first because they aren't the number one priorty. Yea,

But they are the big spenders and they do make decisions such as EA renewals and enterprise deployments. Ballmer's going to rise or fall on this one.

Kind of like GPUs. Without hardcore gamers paying ridiculous amounts of money for high performace boards, who would fund all that development?

[Dot Matrix]

Keyboards will out live mice and Win32. They will be around, a long long time. With holography, voice rec, whatever, you will have some form of keyboard. Can't very well have a whole office talkign to their PCs all day, nor do you want to dictate business emails much, etc. etc.

Keyboards will always be around in one form or another. Mice..... Not so much, and now we have touch and Kinect inputs. You really can't use the desktop with Kinect (Touch is manageable).

[psreloaded]

I keep seeing reference to desktop apps as legacy apps as if they are going somewhere. That is a little strange. Desktop apps are not legacy apps. In fact they are far superior in functionality and looks when compared to Metro Apps and they are not going anywhere... unless something revolutionary comes up in metro which I don't see happen very soon. Metro was only created keeping touch in perspective... remove that aspect and the whole metro experience looks legacy to me... :p

Don't expect apps like Photoshop or excel or games of this generation with that much amount of functionality to show up for metro, possibly ever...

[DarkyDan]

Desktop apps ARE legacy apps... as far as Windows 8 is concerned.

The functionality difference is only because the OS is in preview and the apps are in their infancy. There will be no difference in functionality when Metro apps are bought up to speed... if there is the DEV is at fault!

As far as looks go that is subjective. If people can make good looking desktop apps they can make good looking Metro apps.

A lot of these opinions are judging Windows 8 and Metro like a new pair of shoes... 'oh no they are giving me blisters.. lets throw them infront of a bus', 'my windows 7 shoes are much more comfortable why would I wear these newfangled supposed superior tech shoes?'

[psreloaded]

Desktop apps ARE legacy apps... as far as Windows 8 is concerned.

The functionality difference is only because the OS is in preview and the apps are in their infancy. There will be no difference in functionality when Metro apps are bought up to speed... if there is the DEV is at fault!

As far as looks go that is subjective. If people can make good looking desktop apps they can make good looking Metro apps.

A lot of these opinions are judging Windows 8 and Metro like a new pair of shoes... 'oh no they are giving me blisters.. lets throw them infront of a bus', 'my windows 7 shoes are much more comfortable why would I wear these newfangled supposed superior tech shoes?'

No they are not... and they are not going anywhere...and my opinion is not biased... metro was in fact conceived keeping touch in mind as I said... and if a metro app does look like a desktop app, they the whole point of metro is lost...

[offroadaaron]

What I would like to see is a tablet MS or Apple which has IOS or Windows 8 and it's a nice tablet OS when undocked and taking around and you can still edit word files and stuff it's just an easy touch implementation of the program, then when docked it's your desktop, same files you were working on but just a Windows 7 like desktop.

[DarkyDan]

No they are not... and they are not going anywhere...and my opinion is not biased... metro was in fact conceived keeping touch in mind as I said... and if a metro app does look like a desktop app, they the whole point of metro is lost...

I said as far as Windows 8 is concerned! It's clear that Desktop is basically only in there in the same way XP mode was available in Win7. Desktop Apps are clearly not legacy for those using Windows 7 however.