Why didn't MS segregate the tablet UI from the desktop UI?

[Shane Ekanayake]

I hate how knee-jerk Microsoft's reaction has been to Apple's lead in the tablet market. "Oh **** we need to make Windows a tablet OS or else we lose the tablet war!"

The result? We get a crappy OS that attempts to merge the mouse and keyboard desktop with a touch interface. I've been using Windows 8 all day today, and while it's usable and has many great under the hood changes for the desktop (new Task Manager is one of them), I wonder why Microsoft merged these two UIs in the first place and is forcing Metro upon the desktop user.

When I logged into Windows 8 for the first time, I was faced with a hideous lock screen that took me several minutes to figure out that I had to slide the lock screen upwards to access the login screen. Wouldn't a direct jump to the login prompt been simpler?

Does Microsoft itself even know why they haven't changed the start menu in the past twenty years? Because it works, it's efficient, and it's damned intuitive for people operating with a mouse and keyboard.

I hate the say it, but Apple's Mountain Lion is the best example of how tablet features should be integrated into a desktop OS without destroying overall usability.

And I adopted Vista at launch five years ago and defended Microsoft on the Internet. If geeks can raise a big stink about Vista five years ago, we need to do the same for Windows 8 when it launches. I refuse to use Windows 8 outside of a tablet environment. The idea that Microsoft would destroy desktop usability just to dip its toes into the tablet war and force developers to develop Metro apps is inane and ill-advised.

Guess I will be staying with Windows 7 on the desktop for the next several years.

so stay with win7 or buy a mac .who's holding u

ohh if u think win 9 will drop metro u'ar dead wrong win 9 will be more metro

the reason many people dont like metro is that there ar no real productivity metro apps that show power of new platform .Win 8 Apps store filled with bloatware.there are 3 or 4 good apps but those apps are very buggy and far from feature complete.

without apps start screen is useless

as a guy who use win 8 as a primary OS i admit MS must tweak win 8 to be more mouse and keyboard friendly .but other than that i dont see any problem with Win 8 :)

[Dot Matrix]

No functionality removed? How about cascading menus for Control Panel and Administration tools? How about Jumplists for programs on the Start menu in Windows 7, either pinned or in the recent programs list? Or how about a recent programs list? Or how about individual folders for program installations on the Start menu instead of just every shortcut created by a program installation just plastered on the Start screen? No functionality removed? All of the useful functionality was removed and for no other reason than they thought everyone would like a giant tablet screen instead of the efficient Start menu. Although you're right, the XP Start menu was a drag. But they just tossed out some of the best parts of the Windows 7 Start menu. So please do not say 'no functionality was removed'. It was!

Admin Tools are still there. But, why would you still want cascading menus?

Or how about individual folders for program installations on the Start menu instead of just every shortcut created by a program installation just plastered on the Start screen?

This I will give you, but other than that, the Start Screen still works the same way the Start Menu did, and then some. It offers greater customization than the old menu ever did.

Now, I'm kinda curious as to why I know all this stuff and others don't. Did any of you *really* delve into the build? Or did you give up after 5 minutes? It didn't take long to find where everything is located.

[swanlee]

People just seem to be afraid of change, thus all the people freaking out about the start button. It is a button there are other ways to do the same thing. Metro is also not just a tocuh UI, it is a central UI for all of MS products. Metro started in media center than quickly was put into the zune interface and has grown from there. Win8 is the first use of it on a touch interface.

I always liked metro and am glad MS is pushing it to all it's products

[HoochieMamma]

What does multitasking have to do with anything? You're limited by the fact that you aren't capable of focussing on two things at the same time. Can you read a book on your lap while you drive? Can you read a newspaper and watch TV at the same time? Can you type an essay while chopping onions? Of course not so why would you assume that you can navigate through the Start menu at the same time you are watching a video or replying to a messenger conversation?

*COUGH*

Yes I'm focusing on EVERYTHING in that screenshot FYI. Each and every window. I would span them over 2 screens if I had them like I do at work. So don't go around saying you can't focus on more then 1 thing at a time.

[HawkMan]

Actually I have a wattage meter on my computer and it is. But it is nice to know other Neowin members know what hardware I'm running.

FYI, It's Tri-SLI GTX 480's in my system that cause such high power consumption at idle :)

In that case your computer is horribly configured

[HoochieMamma]

In that case your computer is horribly configured

Please elaborate?

[Vice]

In that case your computer is horribly configured

No it is configured perfectly. It merely is a power monster as I said originally. I have a lot of hardware in it and three 250 Watt TDP graphics cards that even at idle each consume around 40 watts each. Combined with my CPU which is highly overclocked but still manages around 30 watts at idle, my motherboard has separate NF200 chips which each consume around 8 watts idle bringing the total system board power to around 30 watts at idle.and the inefficiencies present in the power supply leaves my system drawing just over 200 watts from the wall when idle.

I really find it shocking on Neowin how some people like you feel themselves the experts on other peoples computers and setups when you don't even know anything about them. You claim my computer doesn't consume 200 watts at idle without even knowing the components I use. What a joke.

[psreloaded]

What does multitasking have to do with anything? You're limited by the fact that you aren't capable of focussing on two things at the same time. Can you read a book on your lap while you drive? Can you read a newspaper and watch TV at the same time? Can you type an essay while chopping onions? Of course not so why would you assume that you can navigate through the Start menu at the same time you are watching a video or replying to a messenger conversation?

As I said before, your example is a fringe concern at best but is really just a nonsense example. It's certainly not the sort of thing that a UI should be based around and I'll take the benefits of the new Start screen over the unnecessary ability to find application icons while watching movies.

No but I can code in 2-3 different windows in VS, SQMS and Enterprise Manager. have 10 different webpages open as and when I need. The point here is that Metro was in fact conceived for touch devices and is frankly in its current form unnecessary on a desktop. period. Things which are cool about it could have integrated into aero if they wanted. Examples would be Office 15 and Zune. I love them. There is a reason that the desktop looks as it does today. Its very usable with a pointing device. What they should have done is to keep the two UI separate so that we could switch between them but not have to go into another when there is no need. Keeping the start menu for desktop and the start screen invoke from the charm bar would have solved the problems here and we would not be having this discussion probably. Another blunder I would say is having some settings exclusively in the PC settings sections rather than having them in control panel as well.

And as far as productivity apps are concerned, i don't think it will be possible to create a excel or visual studio or a game as functional as it is on a desktop.

[Dot Matrix]

*COUGH*

Yes I'm focusing on EVERYTHING in that screenshot FYI. Each and every window. I would span them over 2 screens if I had them like I do at work. So don't go around saying you can't focus on more then 1 thing at a time.

But, you're not really. I'm the same way, in fact I have a dual monitor setup with two instances of Firefox running right now. But I am focusing on writing this comment to you, the other browser windows are now in the background of my attention until I turn to face them again. They may be open and running, but if I'm sitting here writing this, then I am not focusing on the other windows.

[TheLegendOfMart]

But, you're not really. I'm the same way, in fact I have a dual monitor setup with two instances of Firefox running right now. But I am focusing on writing this comment to you, the other browser windows are now in the background of my attention until I turn to face them again. They may be open and running, but if I'm sitting here writing this, then I am not focusing on the other windows.

No but the difference is that if you detect movement you can switch your focus back and forward instantly, with Metro you have to switch the whole screen assuming its even got the toast notifications for the app you are using.

[Vice]

No but the difference is that if you detect movement you can switch your focus back and forward instantly, with Metro you have to switch the whole screen assuming its even got the toast notifications for the app you are using.

Exactly! - This x1 million. I've been saying this all along it is not just about active focus it is about seeing things in the corner of your eye and being able to react to them instantly.

[ichi]

What does multitasking have to do with anything? You're limited by the fact that you aren't capable of focussing on two things at the same time. Can you read a book on your lap while you drive? Can you read a newspaper and watch TV at the same time? Can you type an essay while chopping onions? Of course not so why would you assume that you can navigate through the Start menu at the same time you are watching a video or replying to a messenger conversation?

Are you really saying that we can't do two things at the same time? I mean, is that supposed to be some kind of fact or just an opinion based on your own capabilities?

Just a quick example: you should be able to (or at least normal people can) keep track of the conversation in a meeting with 10+ people while doing other stuff on your desktop (including opening new apps), instead of going back later to review what you might have missed while you were messing with the fullscreen glorified app launcher.

Sames goes for live webinars or plenty of other tasks that don't require the 100% of your attention 100% of the time, but greatly benefit from being able to keep track of the information presented on the screen at any time no matter what else you are doing.

Something as simple as keeping an eye on a tail of a log while doing other stuff suddently becomes a complication if you need to launch a new app.

[Calum Veteran]

It is just your opinion that they are wrong. Not a fact. So when you use your opinion to tell them they are wrong that is belittling them and it is annoying.

Some opinions are not wrong, but some opinions are; of course, that is just my opinion on the concept of opinions. The opinion that the Metro experience is "a tablet UI" is wrong because it exists on desktops and notebooks. They may believe the user interface does not work well on a desktop or notebook, and that opinion is totally fine (that opinion is not wrong), but them referring to it as "a tablet UI" is incorrect. It's all in how a person convey's their opinion, and it's disappointing that people who are not as pedantic as me believe I am being condescending when I point that out. People should say what they mean, not what is easier to type, because otherwise readers could be mistaken by what they mean.

Yes, yes, the same rhetoric, I'm wrong and I just don't understand, do you even read back your responses? Just when I thought you couldn't get any more arrogant and condescending. Who the hell do you think you are telling people that they are wrong by your own PERSONAL definitions, if it were anyone else speaking to people like you do who as a non-moderator they probably would have been reported and warned by now.

Yes, I do read back my responses; however, it's clear that you have read my posts in the wrong light. I am always polite and courteous, yet you read my posts as arrogant and condescending :s I politely post my opinion on Windows 8, in response to what others write, and you often try to ensure the discussion does not remain polite (an example is the post of yours I quote above). Posts like the one quoted above are polluting this community. I post here in the hope of polite discussion and debate, where any opinion can be challenged yet respected; however, if anyone disagrees with you, you post very spiteful comments, often full of lies (e.g. your above post erroneously refers to me as arrogant and condescending).

As I mention, some opinions can be wrong, in my opinion. It's amusing yet disappointing that you would post such a hypocritical comment: You suggest I shouldn't be able to tell people their opinions are wrong while also implying that my opinion (that being that their opinion is wrong) is wrong. If I shouldn't be able to tell people their opinions are wrong, why are you allowed to tell me that my opinion is wrong?

No one would be warned for posting in a polite and courteous manner (which is what you appear to be suggesting). Discussion is what the Neowin forums are here for. This wouldn't be a very interesting place if opinions and views were not challenged and debated. The difference between me and you is that I reply to others in a polite manner.

Having said that, I am thinking of no longer posting here because I am sick of you and some other members not correctly reading my posts. I am sick of people erroneously suggesting that I have a "holier than thou" attitude just because I disagree with them and they spy the Global Moderator badge. Even when people read my posts incorrectly, I politely suggest they read them properly, yet people erroneously believe that is being condescending :s I may remain as a moderator, but posts like the one above (full of misunderstanding) have polluted this community. I will leave you to carry on. . . .

[Woelfel]

You guys are acting like the desktop is going away. It is not. It is just not going to be the primary way of using computers applications. Command Line didn't go away when they went to a GUI system, which is mouse friendly and less keyboard intensive. Now the same process is being done with touch. It's really getting annoying as people can still do the same thing because the desktop is still there. Over time, the Metro Style applications will evolve (even though we haven't even seen the best of it yet) with Windows 9, 10, etc...but the desktop is not leaving, the desktop is still there for you to do the multitasking that you need and I need. WHY ARE YOU MAD?

[Vice]

Some opinions are not wrong, but some opinions are; of course, that is just my opinion on the concept of opinions. The opinion that the Metro experience is "a tablet UI" is wrong because it exists on desktops and notebooks. They may believe the user interface does not work well on a desktop or notebook, and that opinion is totally fine (that opinion is not wrong), but them referring to it as "a tablet UI" is incorrect. It's all in how a person convey's their opinion, and it's disappointing that people who are not as pedantic as me believe I am being condescending when I point that out. People should say what they mean, not what is easier to type, because otherwise readers could be mistaken by what they mean.

Yes, I do read back my responses; however, it's clear that you have read my posts in the wrong light. I am always polite and courteous, yet you read my posts as arrogant and condescending :s I politely post my opinion on Windows 8, in response to what others write, and you often try to ensure the discussion does not remain polite (an example is the post of yours I quote above). Posts like the one quoted above are polluting this community. I post here in the hope of polite discussion and debate, where any opinion can be challenged yet respected; however, if anyone disagrees with you, you post very spiteful comments, often full of lies (e.g. your above post erroneously refers to me as arrogant and condescending).

As I mention, some opinions can be wrong, in my opinion. It's amusing yet disappointing that you would post such a hypocritical comment: You suggest I shouldn't be able to tell people their opinions are wrong while also implying that my opinion (that being that their opinion is wrong) is wrong. If I shouldn't be able to tell people their opinions are wrong, why are you allowed to tell me that my opinion is wrong?

No one would be warned for challenging another's opinion. Discussion is what the Neowin forums are here for. This wouldn't be a very interesting place if opinions and views were not challenged and debated. The difference between me and you is that I reply to others in a polite manner.

You're like that mother from Everybody Loves Raymond. :rofl:

[devHead]

Admin Tools are still there. But, why would you still want cascading menus?

This I will give you, but other than that, the Start Screen still works the same way the Start Menu did, and then some. It offers greater customization than the old menu ever did.

Now, I'm kinda curious as to why I know all this stuff and others don't. Did any of you *really* delve into the build? Or did you give up after 5 minutes? It didn't take long to find where everything is located.

I know the Admin tools are available, and I enabled them. But then it's just a screen full of icons instead of one neat flyout menu. Why does no one like this? The same with Jumplists on the Start menu. I love having Word and Excel and Access on my Start menu with pinned and frequent documents in the menu. But now if I still want that, it can only be on the taskbar. Now, the Start menu just looks like this big screen full of icons, which I hate. I can't believe people would rather open up Control Panel and then click the thing they want.

[Dot Matrix]

No but the difference is that if you detect movement you can switch your focus back and forward instantly, with Metro you have to switch the whole screen assuming its even got the toast notifications for the app you are using.

Detecting movement is hard, when I'm not even looking at the windows. Again, my attention is on this window, and this window alone as I am typing. Also, it's not as if the desktop is going away in 8, so the person I was replying to can still do what he was doing in Windows 8 on the desktop.

[HoochieMamma]

But, you're not really. I'm the same way, in fact I have a dual monitor setup with two instances of Firefox running right now. But I am focusing on writing this comment to you, the other browser windows are now in the background of my attention until I turn to face them again. They may be open and running, but if I'm sitting here writing this, then I am not focusing on the other windows.

Don't tell me how I'm using my computer please, I had to minimize most of what was going on in those 3 windows but I was focusing on all 3 computers simultaneously, I have to, to figure out the issue that I'm trying to fix with them. Don't assume people can't multi-task

[ichi]

The opinion that the Metro experience is "a tablet UI" is wrong because it exists on desktops and notebooks.

So does Android, but I don't see that turning it into less of a mobile/tablet UI.

[Vice]

Detecting movement is hard, when I'm not even looking at the windows. Again, my attention is on this window, and this window alone as I am typing. Also, it's not as if the desktop is going away in 8, so the person I was replying to can still do what he was doing in Windows 8 on the desktop.

If you can't see movement in your peripheral vision then you should see a doctor as humans are much much much more sensitive to subtle movement in the peripheral vision than they are in the central focus of the eye.

[Calum Veteran]

So does Android, but I don't see that turning it into less of a mobile/tablet UI.

If something exists and works on a desktop or notebook PC, it is clearly not "a tablet UI." It may not be suited to a desktop or notebook PC, but it's all down to how people communicate their view. "A tablet UI" would be something that only exists on a tablet.

[jakem1]

Of course I'm just posting this because it is funny. I wouldn't actually read a book while driving. However I think your argument is flawed because I'm watching a tv show right now while replying to you. I can do two things at once, one is a passive activity where I'm receiving information and hearing whats happening and seeing it out the corner of my eye while the other is replying to you.

Of course my argument isn't flawed and you just proved it yourself. You're not focussing on the TV show while you're replying to me because you can't. Watching something out of the corner of your eye is not the same as watching something and paying attention to it. As such, I'm sure you could live with the momentary distraction of the Start screen popping up, especially since the situation you described will happen extremely infrequently..

Great picture by the way :laugh:

[Calum Veteran]

You're like that mother from Everybody Loves Raymond. :rofl:

I haven't seen it, so I don't know whether she's bad or good :D

I would just like everyone to be polite. If I disagree with someone's opinion, they should not attempt to attack me out of spite, which is what TheLegendOfMart often does. Instead, they should attempt to intelligently refute my posts and do so in a polite manner. I'm not always right; I have been proven wrong before :) Likewise, I always admit when I realise I'm wrong. I'm fully prepared to change my view on Windows 8 if I find that it hinders my productivity (I've only been using the Consumer Preview for two weeks, as have most other people, so I can't be sure).

[stevember]

If something exists and works on a desktop or notebook PC, it is clearly not "a tablet UI." It may not be suited to a desktop or notebook PC, but it's all down to how people communicate their view. "A tablet UI" would be something that only exists on a tablet.

Disagree, I can put a pair of pants on my head it does not make them a hat.

[TheLegendOfMart]

Detecting movement is hard, when I'm not even looking at the windows. Again, my attention is on this window, and this window alone as I am typing. Also, it's not as if the desktop is going away in 8, so the person I was replying to can still do what he was doing in Windows 8 on the desktop.

I manage ok with multiscreen environment?