windows 8 Do you like or hate Windows 8?

[KingCracker]

Microsoft loses $494m last quarter. That's just the beginning when they try and force inferior tablet O/S's onto desktop users!

Maybe it will make touch screen monitors cheaper. :/

[PGHammer]

Ok, you're going to have to help me here PG because I'm baffled by your search example. Yes, application based searches are new, but I fail to see how that effects finding and launching applications themselves. I can more easily search within apps, but beyond that the default Win7 Start is actually an all around better search out of the box. I honestly don't understand the constant references to the indexing service. Again, not an app lauch issue so I'm still confused as to how the new search makes lauching apps easier or has any impact whatsoever on the connectivity or cleanliness of the Start Screen.

I mean, isn't that the whole point of the Start Menu changes starting with Vista and eventually leading here? As you say, that users can just search instead of organizing their menus? (It coincidentally got harder to organize that same menu for those of us that liked a well tended garden). Using Search over hierarchy didn't start with Win8 nor do I see how the depreciated Indexing Service has anything at all to do with it.

Can you at least give a clean example?

Folks spend that extra time organizing things because they search via (as I call it) the Mark I Mod 0 human eyeball. If you have only a few items TO search, I can see why the eyeball would get preferred.

However, when you have a lot of applications (and application shortcuts) to search, that does indeed get cumbersome. "Tending the garden" (your words) gets even more cumbersome as it gets bigger - small garden is replaced by a small farm - a larger farm is impossible to tend that way. That was, in fact, why Index Server was made optional with Windows NT Service Pack 4, and why it became a core feature with Windows 2000 Professional; further, note that I am specifically referring to *desktop* versions of Windows NT. (In other words, the same reason that files are indexed on servers as a matter of course has become a must-have on desktops.)

Web search engines (all of them) operate based on indexed data-types; all Index Server does (in fact, all it has ever done) is take that same indexability and apply it to networked (servers) or local (desktops) file data (or even application data, if the application launch vehicle is itself indexable/capable of being indexed). The only way you could apply Index Server to the Start menu (even in Windows XP) is in Explorer view and index from there - a real pain in the butt. (Vista and 7 made it no easier.) Compared to that, hand-tending *is* easier - that I freely admit. However, hand-tending a large Start menu (with many program groups) takes time away from being productive - which is precisely my problem with it.

The StartScreen, on the other hand, was designed to be index-capable from the beginning, unlike the Start menu. Even better, leveraging the StartScreen's index doesn't even require you to learn anything. Once you enter the StartScreen (via the Windows logo key - the same key that used to launch the Start menu), just enter the name of the application - or even start to enter the name of the application; it winnows down the candidates the more you enter in to the application-name parameters. And it doesn't matter HOW the applications themselves are organized - or if they are organized at all. The fact that it is just as fast even with the disorganized mess my StartScreen full of applications is means that hyper-organization itself is irrelevant. Therefore, it's one fewer time-wasting item on your plate. Index Server has been (as I pointed out) a core feature in *desktop* Windows since Windows 2000 Professional, and a lot of other Windows functionality ties into it (it is behind the organizational views of Control Panel, and even Windows Explorer (which is why the Start menu *is* indexable if you view it via Windows Explorer - however, you couldn't index the Start menu any other way; worse, the Start menu itself couldn't use that just-created index). The tool has been in the toolbox for twelve years - and that is just as a core feature. All I have been saying is that it is underutilized and underused - despite all that has been attempted to put Index Server to greater use - such as Windows Search 4.0 in XP Service Pack 3 and Windows Vista Service Pack 2. (Naturally, plodders would hate that, as do those that look for makework to do during slow periods - as I said before, I hate plodding, and I despise makework.)

[Lexcyn]

I've been running the Consumer Preview for a few days as my main OS. I upgraded from my Windows 7 install and everything worked OK.

I have to say I don't mind it after actually using it day to day. Some things are odd (ie: how you have to go into the Metro menu to shut down), but I'm hoping the RTM will fix a lot of the minor issues the preview release has.

[Dashel]

If you have only a few items TO search, I can see why the eyeball would get preferred.

You are simply insane, at least that's all I can take away from your unfocused, scattered wall of text. Give a clean simple example without the supposed history lesson. Please compare/contrast the search you are doing via the StartScreen vs the results Win7 returns by default in regards to app launching. Without that simple piece of information, your post is meaningless.

[DpwOX545]

I personally can't stand Windows 8 and will not be upgrading to it anytime soon. While I like many of the changes as a whole to the OS, the Metro Start Screen and the Start Button removal really are deal breakers for me.

As far as the Start Button is concerned, MS may have removed it since a lot of their test users simply use keyboard shortcuts but that is just poor design. The most obvious reason is not all keyboards even have a windows key (macs!) so those users are basically screwed. In addition, I can't count how many times I was eatting/texting/etc when i needed to launch an app my right hand was on my mouse while my left was busy...while its quite easy to move my hand over and hit the windows key, its annoying to stop what you're doing instead of simply drag over the mouse and click.

Now onto Metro....my biggest issue with it is that it doesn't really "mesh" well with a desktop experience and it's very much a 1.0 product. A lot of people use their desktop to multitask and constantly interact with 2-3 different programs at once.....Metro isn't good at this. Metro is good for wanting to use your PC for 5 minutes and then get off of it, not for copying data from a spreadsheet into an email while checking a running news ticker and as a result, many enterprise customers will ignore Windows 8.

Metro is also very incomplete, when you go in to the Metro system settings, most options will make you leave metro and use the classic windows control panel. Another example is the lack of a Metro File Explorer.....again when you need to do any serious work you have to leave Metro. For a UI element that is being forced down our throats, its very incomplete.

If I am on a tablet, I want to be in Metro 100% of the time. If I am on a laptop I will probably switch between the 2 depending on what I want to do. If I am on my desktop I want to multitask and use a traditional desktop, not a touch/gesture optimized UI. Feel free to agree/disagree all you want but these are my opinions, I have used all 3 previews of Windows 8 and simply cant stand it. I have used many different OS UI's without any trouble (OS X, Win 3.1+, Android 2.0+, KDE 3.x+, Gnome 2/3+, etc...) but Metro just fails for my wants/needs in so many ways.

[BajiRav]

Microsoft loses $494m last quarter. That's just the beginning when they try and force inferior tablet O/S's onto desktop users!

Please educate yourself. That "loss" had nothing to do with how Windows is selling or not selling.

[Dashel]

Tell that to Dot, he seems to think MS is doomed if they don't reinvent Windows...

[Dot Matrix]

Tell that to Dot, he seems to think MS is doomed if they don't reinvent Windows...

The PC market has grown to include wider ranges of devices and peripherals that don't play nice with Windows 7's UI. Tell me again why they should stick with it?

[xWhiplash]

The PC market has grown to include wider ranges of devices and peripherals that don't play nice with Windows 7's UI. Tell me again why they should stick with it?

Tell me again why my work computer needs an interface like the one Windows 8 provides?

That's fine. Have the interface on the devices that can fully take advantage of the new style. But it does not belong on my desktop. There is no valid argument as to why it does other than "MS NEEDS to change NOW or they will DIE" or "consistency".

News flash, people do not use tablets the same way they use desktops. Can you imagine programming the next Call of Duty on a touch screen? NO, touch screens suck for these reasons.

[Dot Matrix]

Tell me again why my work computer needs an interface like the one Windows 8 provides?

That's fine. Have the interface on the devices that can fully take advantage of the new style. But it does not belong on my desktop. There is no valid argument as to why it does other than "MS NEEDS to change NOW or they will DIE" or "consistency".

News flash, people do not use tablets the same way they use desktops. Can you imagine programming the next Call of Duty on a touch screen? NO, touch screens suck for these reasons.

O rly? What's the Surface then? What are all in ones then? What are POS kiosks then? Those are desktops too...

[xWhiplash]

O rly? What are these then? http://www.istarteds...io-workstation/

Again, all we are asking for is a choice. The choice can be buried deep in the computer settings or even a registry only fix (which I believe they got rid of that option right?). That device is fine, but if I have one at work and I program with it, I am never going to use the touch screen. I do not want my arms up for 8 hours a day programming on the touch screen.

[Routerbad]

I'm always confused by those people complaining about not being able to use it as a desktop system.

I literally spend all my time on the desktop in the CP. My metro start screen appears for about a quarter second it takes me type in the first few characters in whatever I am trying to launch and disappears. More often than not it doesn't even have time to render.

I don't understand why it is that people feel it's such a step down given my usage hasn't changed in the slightest (except I have pinned remote desktop instead of using the jump list in the start menu).

This is why all of the anti-8 sentiment confuses me so.

Same here. The only issue I've run into is when I try to search for an app that was not installed to the start menu, I have to search for files, which sometimes don't show up, then I have to open Explorer and manually navigate to it. Other that that for a scant few programs, I have yet to run into a problem. I know I could also pin that application to either the taskbar or the start menu, but I don't care to ATM. Haven't had any showstoppers so far, and the performance improvements have been more than worth the switch.

[Dashel]

What does an AIO have to do with this again? (Except requiring more cost to replace, especially if you just want to add one feature like touch)

[Subhadip]

Again, all we are asking for is a choice. The choice can be buried deep in the computer settings or even a registry only fix (which I believe they got rid of that option right?). That device is fine, but if I have one at work and I program with it, I am never going to use the touch screen. I do not want my arms up for 8 hours a day programming on the touch screen.

The choice is right in front of you. No one is forcing you to use Metro. Microsoft has continued to develop Desktop alongside Metro. I spend hours at work with Desktop (because Metro apps for my work do not exist yet) with hardly ever touching Metro. Of course, when I switch to "consumption mode" I am all out for Metro. The choice is there, Metro / Desktop, mouse / keyboard, touch, touchless, you just have to get used to the new paradigm.

[Dot Matrix]

I do not want my arms up for 8 hours a day programming on the touch screen.

Notice the keyboard? Since when do you think Windows won't allow physical peripherals anymore?

[chrisj1968]

I don't like the fact that it appears to be more oriented towards touch devices, with the desktop user experience seemingly tacked on at the last minute.

Do I hate it? No. Do I like it? Certainly not. Would I use it with various tweaks put in? If the tweaks made it more of a desktop experience that I've become used to, probably.

pretty much sums up what i think. also to add, MS seems to be closing the Os up in terms of game developers. we have a thread here about how restrictive???? development is. however MS will have an app store? seems like MS is late to the game

[Windows Nashville]

48% negative on a Windows fan site is very omnious news for Microsoft. (Currently 34% "hate Win8" plus 14% "will use Win8 with start menu hack" -- basically, the latter want to restore Win7 features.)

[Dot Matrix]

What does an AIO have to do with this again? (Except requiring more cost to replace, especially if you just want to add one feature like touch)

It counts as a desktop. Which is where you guys have been saying Metro doesn't belong. But these, and other desktop systems such as Surface, POS kiosks, etc disagree.

[Dashel]

We never said it doesn't necessarily belong, we said it depends on use (ie choice) Just wondering why you used an example of a PC format that's existed for many years or that current 'two point' touch models don't work fine with Win7.

[BajiRav]

Again, all we are asking for is a choice. The choice can be buried deep in the computer settings or even a registry only fix (which I believe they got rid of that option right?). That device is fine, but if I have one at work and I program with it, I am never going to use the touch screen. I do not want my arms up for 8 hours a day programming on the touch screen.

What makes you think you can't use keyboard and mouse can't be used with Windows 8 on a desktop that has no touch hardware (not even those fancy new mice)? I have zero tocuh hardware connected to my home PC (a desktop) and I have zero changes in my usage with Windows 8 except when I reboot, I have one additional step of clicking on the desktop tile. I am wondering why you can't do the same? or if you can, why you want to?

48% negative on a Windows fan site is very omnious news for Microsoft. (Currently 34% "hate Win8" plus 14% "will use Win8 with start menu hack" -- basically, the latter want to restore Win7 features.)

I would say more than half of neowin was upset about UAC in Vista or 7. See how clever they were?

[BannanaNinja]

As far as the Start Button is concerned, MS may have removed it since a lot of their test users simply use keyboard shortcuts but that is just poor design. The most obvious reason is not all keyboards even have a windows key (macs!) so those users are basically screwed. In addition, I can't count how many times I was eatting/texting/etc when i needed to launch an app my right hand was on my mouse while my left was busy...while its quite easy to move my hand over and hit the windows key, its annoying to stop what you're doing instead of simply drag over the mouse and click.

I would like to point out the start button is not gone, it is merely HIDDEN. If you move your mouse to the bottom left, the button will show and clicking it will take you to the start screen. This is part of the new hot corners in Windows 8. Right side corners are the charm menu, while the left hand side corners will show previously opened apps where you can close them or go to them, with the bottom left corner taking you to the start screen. This is no functionally different than 7 - move mouse to bottom left and click. (Btw, there is also a start button in the charms bar so that's 2 ways to get there with a mouse)

[Subhadip]

Not to mention there is a Start charm.

[Windows Nashville]

I would say more than half of neowin was upset about UAC in Vista or 7. See how clever they were?

Yes, they turned it off. Microsoft was rational enough to provide a way to switch it off.

Now explain how to switch off Metro.

[air-]

using the "I will use Windows 8 with a start menu hack program" will make you super awesome at computers and everyone will think your the best.

[BajiRav]

Yes, they turned it off. Microsoft was rational enough to provide a way to switch it off.

Now explain how to switch off Metro.

are you deliberately obtuse or did you just plain ignore what I was trying to say?

Let me point it out for you: Neowinian's opinion of UAC in Windows Vista/7 didn't ultimately affect it's success or failure in the market.