Microsoft betrays the trust of customers and partners in the name of progre

[Mando]

duh wrong quote

[jakem1]

If you care about upgrades, then you most likely know how to root and flash a device.

That's a load of nonsense and you know it, especially in the context of OEM support which is what you're claiming is lacking in Nokia's case. Only a tiny minority of people have the time or inclination to waste on custom ROMs and this is not a valid form of upgrade, it's an admission that support for Android phones is largely non-existent.

[xeleraph]

That's a load of nonsense and you know it, especially in the context of OEM support which is what you're claiming is lacking in Nokia's case. Only a tiny minority of people have the time or inclination to waste on custom ROMs and this is not a valid form of upgrade, it's an admission that support for Android phones is largely non-existent.

Your trolling technique is still as incompetent as ever. Please stop taking my comments out of context - where did I ever say that rooting was in the context of OEM support?

Even if we want to ignore rooting and talk about OEM support, it's still much better than the WP situation. The number of WP devices that will get upgraded to WP add up to a grand total of zero. That's right, not a single one. I'm sorry, but ignoring this fact doesn't make it go away. You're simply delusional (or downright desperate) if you think that attacking Android on software upgrades is going to make WP look any better.

[.Neo]

No I give them away for free

You understand that might not be a good businesses model for companies?

[jakem1]

Your trolling technique is still as incompetent as ever. Please stop taking my comments out of context - where did I ever say that rooting was in the context of OEM support?

Even if we want to ignore rooting and talk about OEM support, it's still much better than the WP situation. The number of WP devices that will get upgraded to WP add up to a grand total of zero. That's right, not a single one. I'm sorry, but ignoring this fact doesn't make it go away. You're simply delusional (or downright desperate) if you think that attacking Android on software upgrades is going to make WP look any better.

All current phones (and likely all gen1 phones) will be receiving an upgrade as you well know. I'm not trying to make anything look any better by referring to the fact that Android users don't get upgrades - I'm just pointing out the fact that you're a hypocrite and that you're only interested in hating. You can continue calling me a troll and ignoring my points but all it does is demonstrate that you have no argument.

You're not a WP user and you're not affected by these changes. You're not interested in becoming a WP user and you're obviously not interested in Nokia. You're only posting here because you want to bash a platform that isn't Android despite the fact that Android users are demonstrably worse off in every way than WP users.

[xeleraph]

All current phones (and likely all gen1 phones) will be receiving an upgrade as you well know. I'm not trying to make anything look any better by referring to the fact that Android users don't get upgrades - I'm just pointing out the fact that you're a hypocrite and that you're only interested in hating. You can continue calling me a troll and ignoring my points but all it does is demonstrate that you have no argument.

You're not a WP user and you're not affected by these changes. You're not interested in becoming a WP user and you're obviously not interested in Nokia. You're only posting here because you want to bash a platform that isn't Android despite the fact that Android users are demonstrably worse off in every way than WP users.

What upgrade? Oh, WP7.8? That's really awesome. It's as awesome as slapping an ICS theme on Gingerbread. Oh, wait...

The one who doesn't have an argument is you. You can say how glad you are to receive a UI update and apps on a "flagship" phone that's just been announced will be obsolete, but you're speaking to the fanboy choir here, not anyone who has any sort of tech knowledge and can think for themselves. You essentially just got shafted by Microsoft making the decision to not bring WP8 to current devices when there's no good reason to do so other than the fact that Microsoft simply couldn't be bothered, and yet you're rushing to lick their boots for it like the good brainwashed fanboy you are. You keep bringing up Android's upgrade problems, except that WP upgrade problems are worse by far. Not one single Windows Phone will receive the WP8 upgrade. And you accuse me of hypocrisy. Like I said, you really need to work on your trolling techniques, kid. Either that, or you're too ignorant to understand what hypocrisy means. The Android upgrade situation isn't great, but it's still absolutely and objectively better than the WP upgrade situation where zero phones will get upgraded. That's not hypocrisy, that's stating facts.

I used to be interested in Nokia. That was before they made the decision to shaft all their users and not upgrade a 3-month-old "flagship" phone. Maybe fanboys like you have too much emotional investments in Microsoft and Nokia to see reality and still need to cling on to them even though they just essentially gave you a huge middle finger, kind of like a battered spouse in an abusive relationship. I prefer to call it like it is.

[rfirth]

What upgrade? Oh, WP7.8? That's really awesome. It's as awesome as slapping an ICS theme on Gingerbread. Oh, wait...

It's more than a theme. It's more than just the improved start screen. They still have a lot more to announce, but you would rather troll today.

Not one single Windows Phone will receive the WP8 upgrade.

But they will receive an upgrade. The current phones are still supported and can still receive security updates. WP7.8 isn't necessarily the last update the phones will receive. If an emergency fix had to be released, it could be released quickly. The WP7 marketplace will continue to grow for quite some time. You won't see any apps disappear. A WP7-based device will continue to work as it always has, and the marketplace will continue to work.

On the other hand, Android... how quickly can Google push an emergency security update out to all Android handsets? Considering only 7% of Android users are using ICS, which was released 8 months ago (argue this if you like)... most Android users are using version 2.2 Froyo (19%!), which was released 25 months ago. That's absolutely dismal. I hope you prove me wrong. There better be something I'm missing.

Somewhere in these facts, the fact that potentially 100% of Windows Phones will be upgraded this fall doesn't sound so bad.

[xeleraph]

Somewhere in these facts, the fact that potentially 100% of Windows Phones will be upgraded this fall doesn't sound so bad.

Your arguments rely on the premise that a skin on top of the same outdated kernel counts as an upgrade. Remove that assumption, and your arguments all fall flat.

Again, you're trying to bring up upgrade numbers. So 7% of Android phones are running ICS. How many current Windows Phones will run WP8? Oh wait, that's right, 0%.

Just because you don't like the facts I'm pointing out, doesn't mean I'm trolling. Sorry.

[rfirth]

Your arguments rely on the premise that a skin on top of the same outdated kernel counts as an upgrade. Remove that assumption, and your arguments all fall flat.

Which kernel powers your phone is completely meaningless. It's a detail that nobody but Microsoft needs to know. It's simply a cool fact that WP8 uses Windows NT. Sure, it means support for multi-core processors. Guess what? That's meaningless when you have a single core processor. You can't swap out processors.

All that matters is the UI, and the Windows Phone UI is very fast and responsive.

The only real problem is WP8-specific apps not being compatible with WP7, but this is overstated and pure speculation.

Again, you're trying to bring up upgrade numbers. So 7% of Android phones are running ICS. How many current Windows Phones will run WP8? Oh wait, that's right, 0%.

My point is that all Windows Phones will be getting an upgrade and continue to be supported. The fact that 93% of Android users don't have ICS wouldn't be so bad if some way was given to provide phones stuck on older versions of Android with some of the new features and security updates. Throw those 93% of Android users a bone or something... given Android's dominance, that's a lot of people.

The majority of Android smartphone users are walking around with insecure devices running out-of-date OS builds.

[Boz]

Android is just the same lots of phones dont have ICS and never will.

Well the low end ones won't because it's not worth it. People change phones every 2 years so for a low end model, if it works great, having ICS won't bring any significant improvements not to mention that consumers who buy those lower end phones don't even really care. Those who buy higher end phones might care because they buy them for numerous reasons (and one of them is the capabilities and newest OS version and so on).

Almost all higher end phones have gotten or will get ICS. If you don't like waiting go with a manufacturer who updates phones quickly or buy a pure Google phone. I guess that's the beauty of choice.

Microsoft has done a terrible thing. Not a single Windows Phone device will be upgradable to Windows Phone 8 and that includes their higher end offering such as Lumia 900. That's really saying F-U to consumers IMO.

Back on topic, I think the whole notion that Microsoft is screwing OEMs is ridiculous. Microsoft is simply doing what Google has done. They are creating their "Signature" line that will show their OS and device capabilities in the true clean, Microsoft approved and intended way of doing things without junk and with something that should, hopefully, show how the new OS and eco-system works perfectly. Even if Microsoft makes Surface themselves this will be no different than keyboards or mice or other stuff they have been making. I don't remember Logitech and others whining and complaining that Microsoft makes those things?

[rfirth]

That's really saying F-U to consumers IMO.

No, that would be WP8 without the WP7.8 update for existing users. The difference between 8 and 7.8 - to consumers - will probably be hardly noticeable.

[xeleraph]

Which kernel powers your phone is completely meaningless. It's a detail that nobody but Microsoft needs to know. It's simply a cool fact that WP8 uses Windows NT. Sure, it means support for multi-core processors. Guess what? That's meaningless when you have a single core processor. You can't swap out processors.

All that matters is the UI, and the Windows Phone UI is very fast and responsive.

It also means support for new APIs and better software backends. Since you argue that the kernel is so meaningless, why did Microsoft bother upgrading it at all? I mean, it's completely meaningless according to you, right?

The only real problem is WP8-specific apps not being compatible with WP7, but this is overstated and pure speculation.

How is it pure speculation? The only speculation is that WP fanboys are trying to argue that WP developers will want to devote time and effort into maintaining two codebases, one of them for an obsolete ecosystem with a 2% market share that has nowhere to go but down. The WP ecosystem was already struggling to attract developers before Microsoft announced that the new Windows 8 ecosystem with its shared core and hundreds of millions of established users is on its way, and that the current ecosystem is a dead-end path. What sort of alternate reality are you living in?

My point is that all Windows Phones will be getting an upgrade and continue to be supported. The fact that 93% of Android users don't have ICS wouldn't be so bad if some way was given to provide phones stuck on older versions of Android with some of the new features and security updates. Throw those 93% of Android users a bone or something... given Android's dominance, that's a lot of people.

The majority of Android smartphone users are walking around with insecure devices running out-of-date OS builds.

Because we all know that software exploits against Android are so common. First you argue that WP software upgrades are completely meaningless, but all of a sudden it's a nice way to attack Android with when the last time a major attack against an unpatched Android vulnerability happened was... wait, when was it again?

Also, how many of those 93% are simply old phones who have become obsolete simply because of their age and should have been swapped out long ago? As opposed to a 3-month-old "flagship" phone. You also ignore the fact that Android's version numbers do not indicate identical code. There are many variants of Android based on the same Android version by various OEMs. A 2.3.5 release by OEM X may contain patches and bugfixes than a 2.3.6 release by OEM Y does not. Your argument is one made out of sheer ignorance.

Android users are still enjoying a growing app ecosystem, and vastly superior functionality to WP. Wake me up when attacks on Android vulnerabilities actually start happening.

[Depicus]

You understand that might not be a good businesses model for companies?

Google, Facebook etc. might disagree. :)

[.Neo]

Google, Facebook etc. might disagree. :)

As far as I know both aren't giving away 11-year-old software and that's it. They're constantly updating their services and get huge returns in ads and probably selling other info. If Google hasn't updated its services since 2001 the company would probably be largely forgotten by the general public, ad revenue plummeted and others would have taken over.

[BoredBozirini]

Well the low end ones won't because it's not worth it. People change phones every 2 years so for a low end model, if it works great, having ICS won't bring any significant improvements not to mention that consumers who buy those lower end phones don't even really care. Those who buy higher end phones might care because they buy them for numerous reasons (and one of them is the capabilities and newest OS version and so on).

Almost all higher end phones have gotten or will get ICS. If you don't like waiting go with a manufacturer who updates phones quickly or buy a pure Google phone. I guess that's the beauty of choice.

Microsoft has done a terrible thing. Not a single Windows Phone device will be upgradable to Windows Phone 8 and that includes their higher end offering such as Lumia 900. That's really saying F-U to consumers IMO.

Back on topic, I think the whole notion that Microsoft is screwing OEMs is ridiculous. Microsoft is simply doing what Google has done. They are creating their "Signature" line that will show their OS and device capabilities in the true clean, Microsoft approved and intended way of doing things without junk and with something that should, hopefully, show how the new OS and eco-system works perfectly. Even if Microsoft makes Surface themselves this will be no different than keyboards or mice or other stuff they have been making. I don't remember Logitech and others whining and complaining that Microsoft makes those things?

Ha, beauty of choice of either spending $300 in a subsidized phone that will get updates a year down the initial release, or $500 on a Google phone. It seems that to make a choice you have to be either rich or rich.

At least Apple still supports the 3GS, no other company can compare to such commitment to customers.

No, that would be WP8 without the WP7.8 update for existing users. The difference between 8 and 7.8 - to consumers - will probably be hardly noticeable.

I hardly think so, or it would be called WP8 all around.

[CentralDogma]

WinRT still supports XAML and XNA code with minor changes. The whole WinRT framework is more or less .NET based, it's hardly an issue to port a WP7.x app over to WinRT in the end.

WinRT is a separate API from .Net. It's not based on .Net, and you certainly can't take code targeting .Net and have it target WinRT without code changes. I've gone into more detail with this before, so I'll just quote that post:

Like I said, you have to make a distinction between a language and it's framework. .NET is a framework. C#, VB, XAML, those are languages. Those languages can target various frameworks: .NET or Mono and now WinRT. A language is just a set of lexicon and syntax. A framework is a set of prewritten code that developers can make use of in their program. For instance, if you?re making an application that needs to connect to a SQL server, you could write all the code to do that yourself, but the .NET library already has such a library: all you have to do is link to it and call it appropriately in your program.

So when Microsoft says you can use C# with WinRT, that means you can use things like the for loop and all the semantics you know and love with WinRT. However, there are a whole new set of libraries. When you want to run Silverlight code under WinRT, it must be ported. Calls to .NET libraries must be changed to WinRT libraries (ie. System.Windows must change to Windows.UI). Something similar happened in the past.

And, I have not seen any information coming out of Microsoft that WinRT is built on .NET. In fact that chart pretty specifically shows that they are completely unrelated.

Here's the chart I was referring to:

The truth is, developers have the option to target Windows Phone 7, who?s install base is narrow, with XNA and Silverlight, who?s future is quite dubious at this point. Or they can target Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 with WinRT, which Microsoft has positioned as the premier way to develop applications going forward.

No, that would be WP8 without the WP7.8 update for existing users. The difference between 8 and 7.8 - to consumers - will probably be hardly noticeable.

I wouldn?t hold my breath on 7.8. The only information Microsoft has released on it is that it will include the new Start Screen. This is at the developer?s conference for Windows Phone. The silence is deafening.

Yes, if we?re going to talk in practical term, the average consumer won?t be able to tell and probably won?t care. Other then a decrease in the number of Apps being released, they wouldn?t really notice if their phone wasn?t updated at all. But I that doesn?t mean we shouldn?t be disappointed in what Microsoft is doing. Ignorance of the masses is no excuse for poor treatment of consumers.

Seeing how Microsoft has essentially thrown WP7 owners, a sizable chunk who have bought one in the last few months with the release of the Lumia, under a bus, it will certainly make me think twice before buying into Microsoft?s products.

[George P Global Moderator]

WinRT is a separate API from .Net. It's not based on .Net, and you certainly can't take code targeting .Net and have it target WinRT without code changes. I've gone into more detail with this before, so I'll just quote that post:

Here's the chart I was referring to:

The truth is, developers have the option to target Windows Phone 7, who?s install base is narrow, with XNA and Silverlight, who?s future is quite dubious at this point. Or they can target Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 with WinRT, which Microsoft has positioned as the premier way to develop applications going forward.

I know they're different, I did say you'd have to make minimal code changes, MS even says this. THe point is that even WinRT is XAML based, if you've done Windows Phone 7 development or .NET development you can easily and pretty effortlessly move over to coding WinRT without issue. WinRT is the future, no doubt, but this just goes back to what i've been saying so far. If you've been a windows phone developer you'll look into porting your app to Windows 8 sure, I have no doubt, but as far as making a WP8 only app/game, smart developers will wait for the user base to grow first, and we have no idea how fast that will happen.

I don't agree with the reasoning that just because WP8 and Win8 is the same core that developers will just drop targeting WP7.x users the day after WP8 ships. Who are you going to be targeting with your WP8 specific apps? There's going to be a good few months before it that group can grow enough (unless sales are very good and we're talking millions of WP8 devices bing sold in the first month), so developers can target them specifically. You go where the users are, and for the phone that's still 7.x users as they are the majority out there for now.

If you want an example of this, I'll give you one, maybe my point will finally come across to you and others who seem to have a hard time understanding this concept. Flash back to when Vista released and brought with it DX10, also later DX11 with Win7. Now using the logic of some people on here game developers should have jumped right on to DX10 for their games and left XP users out, but we all know that never happened simply because Vista started with zero users while XP and DX9 had the majority. Only now that Win7 has taken over have we started to get more DX11 only games (BF3 for example). It's the same idea, a developer should target whatever the user base is using, until WP8 can overtake WP7 in number of users then they should keep targeting WP7.x devices. The only question I have, and that's up in the air is how long will WP8 take before it overshadows WP7? I'm going to guess 4-5 months at best unless we're all surprised and sales skyrocket in the first 2 months.

[CentralDogma]

I know they're different, I did say you'd have to make minimal code changes, MS even says this. THe point is that even WinRT is XAML based, if you've done Windows Phone 7 development or .NET development you can easily and pretty effortlessly move over to coding WinRT without issue. WinRT is the future, no doubt, but this just goes back to what i've been saying so far. If you've been a windows phone developer you'll look into porting your app to Windows 8 sure, I have no doubt, but as far as making a WP8 only app/game, smart developers will wait for the user base to grow first, and we have no idea how fast that will happen.

You are underestimating the effort necessary to port from .Net to WinRT and the cost of maintaining two code bases. Very few developers are going to actively develop a WP7 app and a WinRT app.

I don't agree with the reasoning that just because WP8 and Win8 is the same core that developers will just drop targeting WP7.x users the day after WP8 ships. Who are you going to be targeting with your WP8 specific apps? There's going to be a good few months before it that group can grow enough (unless sales are very good and we're talking millions of WP8 devices bing sold in the first month), so developers can target them specifically. You go where the users are, and for the phone that's still 7.x users as they are the majority out there for now.

If you want an example of this, I'll give you one, maybe my point will finally come across to you and others who seem to have a hard time understanding this concept. Flash back to when Vista released and brought with it DX10, also later DX11 with Win7. Now using the logic of some people on here game developers should have jumped right on to DX10 for their games and left XP users out, but we all know that never happened simply because Vista started with zero users while XP and DX9 had the majority. Only now that Win7 has taken over have we started to get more DX11 only games (BF3 for example). It's the same idea, a developer should target whatever the user base is using, until WP8 can overtake WP7 in number of users then they should keep targeting WP7.x devices. The only question I have, and that's up in the air is how long will WP8 take before it overshadows WP7? I'm going to guess 4-5 months at best unless we're all surprised and sales skyrocket in the first 2 months.

I don?t think you develop a WP8 app, I think you use WinRT and develop an app that runs on Windows 8 and WP8. Because whereas WP8 might struggle, you can guarantee a steady steam of new Windows 8 users because of OEM pack-ins with new PCs.

[xeleraph]

Ha, beauty of choice of either spending $300 in a subsidized phone that will get updates a year down the initial release, or $500 on a Google phone. It seems that to make a choice you have to be either rich or rich.

Paying $19 per month for my Sony Xperia ray, received the ICS upgrade two months ago. You were saying?

[BoredBozirini]

Paying $19 per month for my Sony Xperia ray, received the ICS upgrade two months ago. You were saying?

Tell that to the millions who bought the Galaxy S II from T-Mobile and are still in 2.3.

[drazgoosh]

As a customer, I don't feel betrayed by Microsoft. They need this new approach to improve their image.

[xeleraph]

Tell that to the millions who bought the Galaxy S II from T-Mobile and are still in 2.3.

What does that have to do with the fact that you're wrong?

Pretty much everyone who cares have already updated their S2 to ICS via KIES by now, like what two of my (non-techie) friends did.

[BajiRav]

Not as surprised as you were to hear that a 3-month-old "flagship" phone won't be receiving WP8, I hope.

The 3 month old flagship phone already has the Nokia Maps which are coming in WP8 ;)

Not even every iPhone user is using the 4S. I still see a fair number of iPhone 3GS devices in use. I also still see many users with 2 year old Android devices.

Not surprising because Apple still sells iPhone 3GS and it is the cheapest iPhone you can get? What you need to see is the feature parity between 3G - 4 - 4S. If they all get the same "version" of iOS5 (which gets watered down as you go down the iPhone tree).

[xeleraph]

I don't agree with the reasoning that just because WP8 and Win8 is the same core that developers will just drop targeting WP7.x users the day after WP8 ships. Who are you going to be targeting with your WP8 specific apps? There's going to be a good few months before it that group can grow enough (unless sales are very good and we're talking millions of WP8 devices bing sold in the first month), so developers can target them specifically. You go where the users are, and for the phone that's still 7.x users as they are the majority out there for now.

You're still stuck on the false premise that the Windows 8 ecosystem depends on WP8 alone. This false premise is also what makes your BF3/DirectX analogy completely invalid in this case.

Windows 8 PCs will ship by the hundreds of millions, if current trends continue, and that number will be further bolstered by Win8/WinRT slates. Verizon and T-Mobile are signing up on WP8. Until you acknowledge the reality that the Windows 8 ecosystem will vastly dwarf the WP7 ecosystem within weeks (if not days) since its comprised of Windows 8 and WinRT and WP8, your arguments aren't going anywhere. I realize that you're trying to pretend that the Windows 8 ecosystem is restricted solely to WP8 since that's the only way your opinion will sound anywhere near plausible, but I'm not sure which alternate reality you're living in where that premise is true.

[BoredBozirini]

What does that have to do with the fact that you're wrong?

Pretty much everyone who cares have already updated their S2 to ICS via KIES by now, like what two of my (non-techie) friends did.

Great assumption, but you are completly wrong.