Isn't Windows 8 the start of something great?

[Noir Angel]

I explored my musings on this very topic on my latest Technorati post. It basically says Windows 7 just needed a spit shine to not alienate people who will scream agony once forced to upgrade. Check it out:

Metro vs. Retro: Did the Emperor Really Need New Clothes?

Was anything actually ?wrong? with Microsoft?s pre-Metro design? Technorati's Stephen Victor searches for answers.

Good read, and I agree with you. Desktop users are paying for Microsoft's apparent need to be seen to be competing with Apple in every department.

[dangel]

No, you cannot do it. If you knew the slightest thing about those bypass methods, they don't restore the old start menu or get rid of the new one, they just use an API function to get the start menu to minimise and show explorer. It's not the same thing as restoring the old behaviour.

You can. You wanted to go to the desktop by default on your PC and I pointed out it's possible, for the specific case you mentioned (go to desktop on login) this is a viable solution. I don't know how this blossomed into restoring the old start menu (see stardock for that I guess) but the fact remains it is and we'll have to disagree on what a 'hack' is. Customising Windows has always been possible, but it seems that even if those methods meet your needs that have to fit with a set of narrow requirements for how they're implemented to suit you. This, to me, doesn't seem reasonable. I'll leave it at that, no offence intended or implied, just trying to help in my naivety.

[LegendaryRamzi]

100% with you on this.

The problem is that it will take a whole book to explain what Metro is and why it is what it is.

And without understanding Metro, people probably feel this is something that is enforced upon them for no good reason.

[Noir Angel]

You can. You wanted to go to the desktop by default on your PC and I pointed out it's possible, for the specific case you mentioned (go to desktop on login) this is a viable solution. I don't know how this blossomed into restoring the old start menu (see stardock for that I guess) but the fact remains it is and we'll have to disagree on what a 'hack' is. Customising Windows has always been possible, but it seems that even if those methods meet your needs that have to fit with a set of narrow requirements for how they're implemented to suit you. This, to me, doesn't seem reasonable. I'll leave it at that, no offence intended or implied.

No, what I wanted was a way to restore Windows to it's previous behaviour. The start menu being there when I log on is just one of my annoyances. I still wouldn't like it's design if it was hidden away until I clicked the button. How is wanting a way to at least have the old behaviour so unreasonable exactly?

[dangel]

No, what I wanted was a way to restore Windows to it's previous behaviour. The start menu being there when I log on is just one of my annoyances. I still wouldn't like it's design if it was hidden away until I clicked the button. How is wanting a way to at least have the old behaviour so unreasonable exactly?

Thanks for the clarification - but i responded to a post with two clearly defined issues not three. Scope creep, not my bad.

Stick with 7 then. ;)

[PGHammer]

That's not the point though, it's extra time wasted that I shouldn't have to waste. I shouldn't have to deal with my files opening with tablet oriented applications on a desktop PC, it wouldn't exactly kill them to give you an option in the OOBE to associate by default with the desktop apps or metro apps, but no it's just another part of their scheme to force people into using the start screen.

I am not disparaging those that like touch devices, I'm just saying that it's not necessary to bastardise your product range to accommodate them. People figure out how to use iOS and Android who have been desktop users for years, I'm sure they could figure out RT based tablets without having Windows setup the same way.

Except for two things, your point would be valid -

1. WindowsRT is a new product - Android and iOS are the established products. If you are seeking to challenge an established product, the easiest way is to grow your potential (and *potential* is the key word here) user base. Hence the WinRT API leveraging the Win32 user base in Windows 8. Not all WinRT apps are a fit for desktop users - or even desktop uses; not even those of us that like Windows 8 the way it is claim that.. However, one thing we ARE aware of is that without a large potential user base, development of WinRT apps won't happen at all.

2. I mentioned that I haven't purchased a portable device - such as a tablet or slate; let alone one running Android or iOS. The issue is quite simple - neither Android or iOS meet my needs or wants. WindowsRT/Windows 8 does. The difference is actually the LACK of difference between the Windows 8 UI and the Windows RT UI, as compared to the UI differences between Android/iOS/Windows (either 7 or 8). Basically, there are fewer compromises with WindowsRT compared to iOS or Android for even Windows 7 users - let alone Windows 8 users. How many others are there that are waiting for WindowsRT due to it meeting what we want better than Android or iOS? Yes; I'd rather be running a Windows 8 portable - I've made no secret of that. However, even WindowsRT is far less of a compromise than Android or iOS.

[Noir Angel]

Fine. Now tell me why exactly you think i'm being unreasonable?

[Deihmos]

Thanks for the clarification - but i responded to a post with two clearly defined issues not three. Scope creep, not my bad.

Stick with 7 then. ;)

If Microsoft does not make adjustments that's exactly what I plan to do. I really tried to like Win 8 but I just could not. This is the first Windows OS that I truly did not like and the first made once simple tasks to require more steps. That makes no sense to me. The user experience just does not work for me.

[PGHammer]

Fine. Now tell me why exactly you think i'm being unreasonable?

Mostly because there is a product that is going exactly nowhere that does what you want - it's called Windows 7. The availability of Windows 8 doesn't change the fact that Windows 7 is going nowhere.

Except for WinRT apps (and the WinRT API), you can still run Win32 applications and games on either operating system. Windows 7 won't suddenly become less available just because Windows 8 will start to ship.

Office365 2.0/Office 2013 will run on Windows 7 (in addition to Windows 8). There are those users for whom (because of what they do on their PCs - desktop or other type) Windows 8 is unsuitable - some of those I support today. (It doesn't have squat to do with application or hardware compatibility.) One of my Office 2013 test platforms is a Windows 7 VM for precisely that reason.

I won't ignore, or stop supporting, Windows 7-based hardware just because I'm not running it bare-metal personally; that would be business suicide.

Windows 8 isn't for everyone - despite that, it suits my needs better than Windows 7 does.

My questions to those that criticize Windows 8 - for whatever reason - are all about clarity. Not criticism - clarity. If you can express the why of it clearly, a disagreement can be dealt with - on darn near any issue. It's when the issue becomes overly fraught with emotion and vitriol that things get heated and messy. I can do with a lot less heated and messy, thank you.

[Windows Nashville]

I've noticed there are many hate threads on Windows 8, with people downright disrespecting the OS.

It's an operating system, not a person. You can't "disrespect" software.

And no, Windows 8 isn't the start of something great. It's the beginning of the end for Microsoft as a player in the computing industry.

[dangel]

If Microsoft does not make adjustments that's exactly what I plan to do. I really tried to like Win 8 but I just could not. This is the first Windows OS that I truly did not like and the first that I actually made once simple tasks to require more steps. That makes no sense to me.

Nobody, least of all me, is saying you should do anything but that. 7 is a perfectly good OS.

I am supporting both OS' in our next software release and am happy to do so..

[argonite]

And no, Windows 8 isn't the start of something great. It's the beginning of the end for Microsoft as a player in the computing industry.

An end that, given Microsoft's size, would be more than two decades away, if at all.

[Motoko.]

And this vocal group are the die hard techies. Introduce Windows 8 to the average user (girlfriend, mom, uncle Fred) show them the new ways of navigating, present Windows 8 neutrally as the new OS and see the reaction. For me average folk love it. Average people will only hate Windows 8 without trying it because their "techy" friend tells them to. Much like what happened to Vista.

Spot on

I showed Metro to my Mom and she loves it.

MS saw the model of success for Apple's iPad and are doing everything they can to make that same appeal to the majority of average users. It's neat though because there will be a mix of metro and classic 'Desktop' apps. I can see why they got rid of the start button by using this logic.

[George P Global Moderator]

Spot on

I showed Metro to my Mom and she loves it.

MS saw the model of success for Apple's iPad and are doing everything they can to make that same appeal to the majority of average users. It's neat though because there will be a mix of metro and classic 'Desktop' apps. I can see why they got rid of the start button by using this logic.

This is why I think some people are underestimating the common users ability to adapt to the new UI and also overestimating their reaction to the changes it brings. With a good guide and a bit of time it's really not that hard for them to get to use. That said the majority is moving to mobile, we can't change this. Computing is moving off of the desk and into your hands so to speak. It started with laptops and it's next step is tablets. Could MS have kept them as two different OS's sure I guess they could've but then later down the line they'd have to merge them together anyways. I also think taht we're just looking at the first step in the change, Windows 9 will bring bigger changes to the desktop, I'd bet on it. Once the winrt apis are more mature and able to do more of what win32 can we'll start to see some very interesting changes happen.

[majortom1981]

I originally hated it but I am liking it more and more. You can put in the desktop toolbar and right click the bottom left to get most of the start funtionality back in the desktop mode. Also when more apps become metro I should be using desktop mode less.

[Noir Angel]

Mostly because there is a product that is going exactly nowhere that does what you want - it's called Windows 7. The availability of Windows 8 doesn't change the fact that Windows 7 is going nowhere.

Except for WinRT apps (and the WinRT API), you can still run Win32 applications and games on either operating system. Windows 7 won't suddenly become less available just because Windows 8 will start to ship.

Office365 2.0/Office 2013 will run on Windows 7 (in addition to Windows 8). There are those users for whom (because of what they do on their PCs - desktop or other type) Windows 8 is unsuitable - some of those I support today. (It doesn't have squat to do with application or hardware compatibility.) One of my Office 2013 test platforms is a Windows 7 VM for precisely that reason.

I won't ignore, or stop supporting, Windows 7-based hardware just because I'm not running it bare-metal personally; that would be business suicide.

Windows 8 isn't for everyone - despite that, it suits my needs better than Windows 7 does.

My questions to those that criticize Windows 8 - for whatever reason - are all about clarity. Not criticism - clarity. If you can express the why of it clearly, a disagreement can be dealt with - on darn near any issue. It's when the issue becomes overly fraught with emotion and vitriol that things get heated and messy. I can do with a lot less heated and messy, thank you.

Except until there are viable alternatives for gaming I cannot really afford to do that. Playing games as they're meant to be played requires remaining current. And I'm not being rude to anyone so stick to the topic at hand please.

[FizzyChickenBroth]

My roommate is the least techy person I know who owns all Apple products save for her laptop, which is an HP. I put Windows 8 RP on it to replace crappy Vista. She has no problems using it and thinks it's really cool.

Windows 8 will do just fine. It will be nothing like Vista. The problem with Windows 8 is...it runs faster than Windows 7. I just can't stop using it!!!

[PGHammer]

Except until there are viable alternatives for gaming I cannot really afford to do that. Playing games as they're meant to be played requires remaining current. And I'm not being rude to anyone so stick to the topic at hand please.

I never said that you specifically were - I was, in fact, referring to those (on both sides of the issue) getting overly emotional and vitriolic over it.

As far as gaming goes, outside of casual gaming, I don't see much in the way of benefits for developers OR publishers that would have them concentrate exclusively on Windows 8; however, I see just as little reason for those same developers or publishers to ignore Windows 8, either. For gamers themselves, Windows 8 has a LOT to offer - specifically, better stability and robustness - compared to Windows 7.

[Rickkins]

Kill me now.

[Noir Angel]

And changes to the driver model, which I am presuming will affect gaming. And that's precisely my point, if I want to stay current I'll end up having to buy it unless Valve can persuade their Steam partners to also port their games to Linux.

[dangel]

And changes to the driver model, which I am presuming will affect gaming. And that's precisely my point, if I want to stay current I'll end up having to buy it unless Valve can persuade their Steam partners to also port their games to Linux.

Wait and see. The driver model isn't vastly different and mostly it seems to be centered around metro/performance if you read the white paper aside from niche stuff like stereoscopic 3d which personally I don't give a stuff about (plus there's proprietary solutions for that already). 7 will be viable for the lifetime of 8 for gamers (say three years) and much more so than linux. Worry once you've got a directx 11.1 compliant card and a stack of games actually doing it - and given how long it took to see much in the way of 11.0 titles I wouldn't sweat it. If what you want is Windows 7 (and it seems so) you have that already and maybe 8 is one you skip.

Yes 8 will be more performant, have added bells and whistles but neither desktop or gaming titles are going Win8 only anytime soon. For myself I'm probably at least six months away from swapping a graphic card (currently on a 580) since everything runs like butter for me now anyway.

Read for yourself: http://msdn.microsof...rdware/br259098

I'm just glad to finally (finally) not have to support XP :)

[Noir Angel]

Sure, but it's unlikely the Metro menu is going to go away... in Windows 9, ETC so eventually I'll have to start using it, Windows 7 won't be supported forever.

[scaramonga]

This is the first version of Windows people are resenting, numerously. (millennium was an exception but didn't really change much, awareness of issues was also not that high att)

No, we remember Vista quite well, and I remember those who thought it was the 'bee's knees' back then (in here), until Win7 came along, are the same people that are now 'crawling out of the woodwork' to say that Win8 is gonna be the best thing since sliced bread.

No shock for all those who did - It's the same old story :) ;)

[Athernar]

No, we remember Vista quite well, and I remember those who thought it was the 'bee's knees' back then (in here), until Win7 came along, are the same people that are now 'crawling out of the woodwork' to say that Win8 is gonna be the best thing since sliced bread.

No shock for all those who did - It's the same old story :) ;)

I thought Vista is/was a perfectly reasonable OS - just marred by poor driver support at launch.

I think 7 is a brilliant OS.

I think 8 (Metro) is a total regression designed exclusively for facile users that would be better suited by having the OS replaced by a single "load Facebook" button.

So don't lump everyone into the same boat.

[Stoffel]

<snipped> Windows 8 isn't touch centric, it's touch enabled. If you don't have a touch enabled device, you can use Win8 just fine using KB + Mouse. MS believes that Touch is the future so they are making sure that their new OS is enabled to use this new way of input, on top of making sure it works fine with KB and mouse. It seems like a lot of you are against the option of using touch enabled apps on a desktop. Why not give people the option?