Isn't Windows 8 the start of something great?

[08993]

I don't see it going down all that well with the general public either. The average person is just going to boot it up and think "where the hell are my desktop and start menu". In essence, Microsoft are bastardising their products because their coders are apparently too lazy to create a different version for tablets.

This

If I could turn off metro and all of the "touch" back-end I'd be fine with it, but it's almost as if MS thinks that by forcing everybody to use it we'll have to accept it.

[Calum Veteran]

And I can respect that. I think you are right--we like/need different things in our desktops.

[. . .]

I agree. I'm embarrassed to admit that when Windows 8 was first announced, I didn't think about the situation carefully, and I became selfish in thinking that everyone should accept this entirely new way of working, merely because I believe it's a better way of working. After more careful consideration, it's completely understandable that you prefer the operating system you use to work in the way you described. I'm curious to see if Microsoft ever take any action that will please the both of us.

[+InsaneNutter MVC]

If I could turn off metro and all of the "touch" back-end I'd be fine with it, but it's almost as if MS thinks that by forcing everybody to use it we'll have to accept it.

Indeed, its basically to push the Metro app store and get how however many millions / billions using it in a few years time. Look at how successful the iTunes store is... now Imagine how much Microsoft can make even with 1/4 of its consumer base purchasing from an app store controlled by them.

[I am Not PCyr]

read the first five pages and it seems like you have your answer original poster

clearly i see a majority NOT liking windows 8 for numerous reasons in this topic

who knows maybe if some things end up changing on Microsofts end many of us will change our mind

i hope they are listening ..for their sake, afterall i am a Microsoft Fan (that dislikes many things with Win 8)

I'm not trying to persuede anybody one or the the other, if you like/dislike it fine (there is no right or wrong answer)

but personaly i feel its a poorly executed concept. And most importantly there little effort from Microsoft

to give us some native configuration for Windows 8 and do I really have to explain the value of configuration in an OS ?

Time will time i guess but my vote is Windows 8 = Windows ME v2.0

[x-byte]

I would argue that MS did a lot of work with Win8. The market now is no doubt in a direction of mobile devices like phones and tablets. If you look 5 years into the future, we might have replaced most of PC's with tablets. The desktop PC will continue to be there, but more as a centralized storage in homes. For the business it will be a bit different, but I think it will go that way for the most part as well.

Considering the compatibility and the future, Win 8 does support both really well. We still can use our PC the same way for the most part, and we get set for the future with Metro and the app store. So I think MS did a good job with considering the legacy Windows have. If MS had waited until Win 9 before doing this it would most likely have been to late. 3 years from now, the market will be very different if it continues like we see today.

I will be very happy with a phone, tablet and PC that works just the same way. My settings, apps, documents, etc are in sync between them and the UI is similar. Even if their tasks are different. As of right now we have no platform that can offer this the same way.

[dangel]

Vista was quite different in two ways - first, the new driver model meant drivers crashed it for a good 1.5 years doing irreparable damage to it's reputation (even though it wasn't MS' fault and that this big change would go on to make 7 viewed in such a good light). Second it suffered from severe performance problems - especially on laptops. Primarily this was because it was so 'chatty' in hard drive use - and laptop drives are slower anyway - but also because it's overall footprint demanded very high specs. MS acknowledged this in their own dev blogs during Win 7 development. Neither of these things are true in 8 - so that really only leaves the contentious new UI as a sticking point for many.

The point about what effectively is 'here-say' is very true, and it could be doomed on that alone, but MS could be quite willing to take the hit for this generation in order to maintain some relevance in the future. Like it or not the landscape has/is changing and MS recognise that. Pain may be necessary (think of UAC which everybody disabled/hated/said was crap but forced app devs to become compliant and produce software that could be run in a far more locked down environment).

I will be very happy with a phone, tablet and PC that works just the same way. My settings, apps, documents, etc are in sync between them and the UI is similar. Even if their tasks are different. As of right now we have no platform that can offer this the same way.

I agree - the seeds of this are there (already I'm seeing syncing between my laptop at home and my work PC which occurred to be as being pretty cool) and this would be a USP for MS. We can see this in the new office too (skydrive) etc. I'm not saying they'll pull it off, it's certainly got a long way to go, but if they do.. :)

*Any* UI change is contentious. Doesn't matter if it's for the better or not - changing UI requires balls and vision (at least to get it right). I still see plenty of XP systems running with 'classic' (i.e. themeing disabled) and the 2000 start menu reinstated. That's horrible, and certainly less functional, but it doesn't stop people doing it. I must admit, way back when, I used to replace the entire shell and even now I use Directory Opus in preference to Explorer (although I hope GPSoft will steal some ideas from 8's new Explorer because I do like the new functionality and even some of the bling [file copy graphs]). Always choices..

[xWhiplash]

Nobody gave a decent reason why a very expensive powerful studio computer like mine needs to act like a tablet.

I will ask this again: Why are you people so afraid of choices? If I could have an option to boot directly to the desktop interface without seeing the Start Screen for even a second, I would be happy. If there was an option to enable a smaller start screen so it does not fill up my 30" monitor, I will be happy.

If they do those two things, I think both sides of the fence will benefit.

[Noir Angel]

All those icons added to the start screen is f*cking annoying, but those programs are not aware of the new metro start screen. Hopefully new desktop apps will play nicer with the start screen. It does take some effort to keep your new start screen nice and organized but so does the good old start menu

But that's not at all true, because the old start menu had this amazing concept called folders. App icons weren't just thrown around on a screen to clutter it up, they reside in subfolders, in fact Nero's help files which are responsible for the clutter are in a subdir of Nero's dir I didn't even know it installed that many until I used Windows 8, so the argument that the old start menu was just as bad is utterly wrong, it was not.

I agree. I'm embarrassed to admit that when Windows 8 was first announced, I didn't think about the situation carefully, and I became selfish in thinking that everyone should accept this entirely new way of working, merely because I believe it's a better way of working. After more careful consideration, it's completely understandable that you prefer the operating system you use to work in the way you described. I'm curious to see if Microsoft ever take any action that will please the both of us.

Given their current course of action, doubtful. The resounding message I'm seeing is "this is what we're doing, like it or get lost"

[dangel]

But that's not at all true, because the old start menu had this amazing concept called folders. App icons weren't just thrown around on a screen to clutter it up, they reside in subfolders, in fact Nero's help files which are responsible for the clutter are in a subdir of Nero's dir I didn't even know it installed that many until I used Windows 8, so the argument that the old start menu was just as bad is utterly wrong, it was not.

On this I agree - and the obvious thing for them to do is make changes to cope with it. I don't think this is ignorable and in the very least i'd like to see automatically generated groups for them. It's try sw will improve as devs take note but I haven't yet looked into how the new menu is constructed to see what could be done. It's on my todo list.. 7's folders whilst structural were a usability nightmare in such a tiny space - I can see why they wanted to get away from the easy-to-collapse menus of XP but it wasn't a great solution either.

[Given their current course of action, doubtful. The resounding message I'm seeing is "this is what we're doing, like it or get lost"

TBH this has to happen one way or another. If there's one truism in software it's that feature creep is inherently opposed to simplicity.

And yes, from MS' perspective they have alterer motives for not wanting to add further options too doubtless. It's a gamble (always) as to whether this pays off but I doubt MS aren't using focus groups and reading feedback (no matter how vitriolic). It's their choice to do something about it and yours not to buy the product.

I'm still optimistic that the final build will contain mitigations for the various problems mentioned, if it doesn't it won't meet my expectations either.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

The reactions to things on sites like Neowin have usually been a good barometer for how software products have performed, the reactions to Vista and 7 both pretty much echoed what the market eventually said about them.

Hah! You gave me a good laugh, thank you :-)

The reaction to Windows 8 on most tech sites is about 85% negative.

Oh come now, this is plainly not true.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

But that wasn't my real point, my point was that these machines are designed to do different things.

How so?

[Brandon Live Veteran]

The price makes sense. Lowering the price for Windows 8 gets more people invested in it, which increases app store revenue. Apple make just as much money from their app store as they do the sale of iPhones and iPads so it's an understandable move.

I don't think that's quite right, do you have a source? Everything I've read says Apple doesn't make money on the store (only app developers do). It's there to attract users to their devices and get them attached to the Apple ecosystem.

[Shaun N.]

The reaction to Windows 8 on most tech sites is about 85% negative.

That is definitely not true, I would say its about 50/50 - There are lots of users that don't like some of the changes and there are also lots that do.

[dangel]

Seems fairer but really we don't know - most people I talk to haven't even read about it yet let alone seen it.

[George P Global Moderator]

One thing that I would've liked to see them do, but probably won't happen unless there's enough pressure for it, is to let you snap the start menu itself and not just apps as an option. Other than that a few more tweaks and customization options for the start screen itself and it'll be fine. The rest is just extending winrt to the desktop and having the two mesh better together instead of looking and feeling like two different things. Something that will probably happen come Windows 9.

[Eric Veteran]

[Thread cleaned]

Please stay on topic. If you feel another post has broken the site rules, please just report it. Don't add gas to the fire.

[SekaiStory]

I hadn't anticipated this thread would reach over 10 pages, thanks all for the lively discussions and mods for keeping everything at bay.

The general conception I get from reading forum posts, articles and Twitter searches is that there are people who hate Windows 8 and people who love it, about equally divided.

My OP might look all sunshine and rainbows but I too have my worries about the state of the OS, but I try to see Windows 8 as a phase, the start of a new Windows. Back in the 90' applying an entirely new user interface and back-end APIs was "easy" to pull off because PCs were scarce then. Today this is a lot harder but it's something that has to happen one day or another. Other companies like Google and Apple will do the same thing one day and do something completely new to innovate, and people will have to adapt. I don't see any major changes coming to the Windows 8 RTM, but I'm giving Microsoft some credit for what they're doing, and I expect some major (and mandatory) feature updates to roll out in 2013.

I spend 99% of the time in the legacy desktop, nerdgasming over how pretty Office 2013 is etcetera, but in the evening when I'm done with my main tasks, I go to the Start Screen, use some of the apps, share some news or webpages using the share charm, print some files using the print charm and check out the store. I'm sure the Metro user interface will work great on tablets, but I'm confident that in 5 years from now people will use desktop and Metro apps together or side-by-side, and regardless of whether you're a power user, regardless of your screen size, regardless of the type of device or input mode they'll both deliver great experiences each in their own unique way.

Thanks for all of the discussions in this thread guys, I'm sure Microsoft is listening and knows about the goods and the bads. Like many, I won't put a heavy dependence on the Metro side of Windows 8, though I'm looking forward to getting it on day one. I look forward to seeing the reaction of consumers, and I really hope people who hate Windows 8 so much today will find a bit of value in Windows in the future.

[On a random note, creating an operating system is hard, try it if you dare :laugh:]

[Windows Nashville]

I'm sure Microsoft is listening

I've gotten no sense of this whatsoever throughout the entire Windows 8 debacle. Microsoft unilaterally chose the dumbed-down, functionally restricted, "Facebook generation" approach they're going in, and anyone who doesn't like that direction is "old fashioned", "frightened of change", "obsessed with the cheesiness of Aero", etc.

All corporations display arrogance to some extent, but Microsoft's arrogance regarding Metro, and that of their apologists in these threads, has been off the scale. Sekai, they're not listening at all.

[x-byte]

All corporations display arrogance to some extent, but Microsoft's arrogance regarding Metro, and that of their apologists in these threads, has been off the scale. Sekai, they're not listening at all.

Why do you call it arrogance? MS have a clear angel with the Metro interface. That came clear a few years ago. MS is of course listening. But they get their info from thousands of people, not just some noisy users in a forum.

[dangel]

[On a random note, creating an operating system is hard, try it if you dare :laugh:]

I'd say creating any software is hard, but creating something on the scale of Windows is really hard. Changing anything in software is hard, changing Windows to suit everybody is nigh impossible. :)

Windows is all things to everyone and so large and embedded with it's users that taking it in a new directory will take several revisions, gradual change and a bit of trial (and perhaps error). Dramatic change (and in the context of Windows it can only be dramatic) will pee off some people, it's inevitable. For some it's dealbreaking (or so they claim) for others is more of an annoyance.

Personally my experience of MS isn't one of 'they don't listen' - when i've reported issues i've seen action (on occasion) and given the amount of information they share about their development process I tend to believe they spend a lot of time (and worry) on their roadmap (much like my team does) and talking to users. I'm not convinced that having a long term vision makes you arrogant - and aside from anything else it's their product not ours so if you really feel that strongly about it then simply vote with your wallet. Job done.

It'd would be nice to avoid posts painting one side of the debate as being 'apologists' and 'arrogant' - seems too much like a strawman arguement to coveniently paint those who oppose your view as being the extremists (and thus negating their opinion in favour of your own). Covenient but not constructive. It's been far more interesting to hear what people's actual defined problems are with 8 and to see if they correspond with my own experience of using it daily (and debate said).

[BajiRav]

I have never once said metro has no place on the desktop. I have said that I do not like it because I do not care for full screen applications, jarring animations, bright colors, and touch controls. There for Windows 8 has no place on *my* desktop. I would love to use Windows 8 however, if I simply had the option to not have the metro start screen.

And once again don't say that there are alternatives because that is beside the point. The alternatives won't always be maintained and could possible break from one windows update to the next.

I keep hearing this but where are those "jarring animations"? Or is it just hyperbole?

Indeed, its basically to push the Metro app store and get how however many millions / billions using it in a few years time. Look at how successful the iTunes store is... now Imagine how much Microsoft can make even with 1/4 of its consumer base purchasing from an app store controlled by them.

*cough*Xbox*cough* that's where the app store concept came from and it wasn't unique to begin with. Microsoft probably makes more money on its Xbox " app store" that Apple does on its.

I've gotten no sense of this whatsoever throughout the entire Windows 8 debacle. Microsoft unilaterally chose the dumbed-down, functionally restricted, "Facebook generation" approach they're going in, and anyone who doesn't like that direction is "old fashioned", "frightened of change", "obsessed with the cheesiness of Aero", etc.

All corporations display arrogance to some extent, but Microsoft's arrogance regarding Metro, and that of their apologists in these threads, has been off the scale. Sekai, they're not listening at all.

Unilaterally? :laugh: it's their OS, everything about Windows is "unilateral" :p

[+InsaneNutter MVC]

*cough*Xbox*cough* that's where the app store concept came from and it wasn't unique to begin with. Microsoft probably makes more money on its Xbox " app store" that Apple does on its.

*cough*Xbox*cough* that's where the app store concept came from and it wasn't unique to begin with. Microsoft probably makes more money on its Xbox " app store" that Apple does on its.

I would be amazed if the Xbox Marketplace made more money than the iTunes store. Looking on Wikipedia 67.2 million Xbox 360's have been sold world wide as of April 19, 201, Engadget report that 365 million iOS devices are actively in use as of April this year.

Maybe not the best sources for statistics, but when you look at the number of devices in play there's serious money to be made there, it would be crazy for Microsoft not to push Metro apps, an ecosystem they are in control of.

[x-byte]

I keep hearing this but where are those "jarring animations"? Or is it just hyperbole?

I guess it is the transition animations for Metro apps. etc. You can turn them off though. As I replied to him earlier.

[Mackster]

Microsoft is gambling big with this release of Windows 8. I wish them good luck.

[Dot Matrix]

I've gotten no sense of this whatsoever throughout the entire Windows 8 debacle. Microsoft unilaterally chose the dumbed-down, functionally restricted, "Facebook generation" approach they're going in, and anyone who doesn't like that direction is "old fashioned", "frightened of change", "obsessed with the cheesiness of Aero", etc.

All corporations display arrogance to some extent, but Microsoft's arrogance regarding Metro, and that of their apologists in these threads, has been off the scale. Sekai, they're not listening at all.

They have a plan, and want to stick to it. They can alter it to some degree, but Metro is their way forward. Which I agree with. I can't wait to have a more interactive and dynamic UI. Static icons have just.... become boring and dull. There was no shine left in the classic UI.