[OFFICIAL] Windows 10 Insider Program

[PGHammer]

The Metro thing was for the other quote. Must use Hyper-V for Universal app dev, so that automatically blocks all other forms of virtualisation.

Which is going to mean jumping through those nasty connectivity hoops - which is problematical, I admit.  Can you organize your projects by the type of connection needed?   (In my case, that is how I have tackled the problem - mobile projects will use the wireless virtual switch, while everything else will use the wired virtual switch.)

 

I just get a WEE bit horked off over the thinking of some folks that ModernUI is a roadblock to Win32, when that has been proven - day in and day out - not to be the case at all.  Just because the Start menu is the "face" of Win32, it does not mean that it is a requirement for the API to even work.  (Backward-compatibility, in terms of both software AND hardware, is my biggest priority as a tester - if an OS flunks that, it's in trouble from the start.)

 

The Start menu may be critical for users - I actually said as much back during the Developer Preview of Windows 8 itself.  However, it is certainly NOT critical for the API itself - the same Windows 8, in Developer Preview. Consumer Preview, and final form AND through its only Service Pack prior to 8.1, proved that.  That may the hard part for some of the critics to swallow - as critical as the Start menu may be to the user base, it is utterly irrelevant to the API.

[Order_66]

I could name a few video editing apps that are as powerful and "complex" as their win32 counterparts.

 

Then you should have no problem naming them, now which metro video editing apps are good enough to match feature for feature, functionality for functionality with win32 counterparts?

[Order_66]

First off, do you not have any use for included ISO-mounting (which Windows has lacked as a core feature until merely 8.0)?  An included disk-optimization feature that is good enough to replace third-party software (specifically, Diskeeper)?  A vastly-improved Microsoft Security Essentials (which is what Windows Defender is) that obviates the need for yet more third-party software (the only third-party security software I added was to fix the only hole in MSE/Defender - anti-malware)?  And this is without breaking Win32 compatibility. 

 

All of which are very useful, I agree 100%.

That is what I am asking, Order_66 - why the insistence on Win32-only?

 

I'm not insistent on win32 only, if microsoft came up with a better upgrade then I will be 100% for it but metro is not the answer, not even close.

[Max Norris]

Then you should have no problem naming them, now which metro video editing apps are good enough to match feature for feature, functionality for functionality with win32 counterparts?

No experience with it myself, video editing isn't my thing, but one of my neighbors has PowerDirector on her Surface Pro 3 that looked decent -- I wouldn't call it a Premiere killer but it looked quite on par with many "home level" video editors for Win32, even the interface is quite similar. Looking over the features.. about the same, hell even the interface is very similar to its desktop counterpart.  Random search image:

 

 

I dunno, it looks more than capable enough to handle a group of icons in a control panel setup.  Again, don't assume apps designed for a small device to be indicative of what the platform's capable of.  I can just as easily write a badly designed full screen calculator app in WinForms or WPF, does that mean the classic interfaces suck too?  Of course not... it's just a framework, it's as bad or as good as the programmers make it to be.  

[Order_66]

No experience with it myself, video editing isn't my thing, but one of my neighbors has PowerDirector on her Surface Pro 3 that looked decent -- I wouldn't call it a Premiere killer but it looked quite on par with many "home level" video editors for Win32, even the interface is quite similar. Looking over the features.. about the same, hell even the interface is very similar to its desktop counterpart.  Random search image:

 

 

I dunno, it looks more than capable enough to handle a group of icons in a control panel setup.  Again, don't assume apps designed for a small device to be indicative of what the platform's capable of.  I can just as easily write a badly designed full screen calculator app in WinForms or WPF, does that mean the classic interfaces suck too?  Of course not... it's just a framework, it's as bad or as good as the programmers make it to be.  

 

 

From the outside that looks to be the first useful metro app that i have ever seen, I'm going to download it from the windows store while I'm at work tomorrow and give it a shot.

[Max Norris]

From the outside that looks to be the first useful metro app that i have ever seen, I'm going to download it from the windows store while I'm at work tomorrow and give it a shot.

I'd be interested in hearing about it if it's unbiased -- like I said it's not my thing but I know a few who would be interested.  I have no expectations (especially for a freebie) but *shrug* it looks comparable, and like I said it's not a case of "we're using the modern stuff for the start menu so you *HAVE* to use it too", I chalk it up to "right tool for the job."  If I was writing something that would be suitable for a tablet, it's a no brainer and extra bonus it runs on desktops too.  (Ask anyone running Android apps on their desktops.)  Also makes it that much easier to use.. I have an old junker here still running XP Tablet Edition, and it's just balls to use as a tablet, no question.  As a developer if I could do both at once, yes please, not a fan of doing the same work two or three times.

 

If I were doing something very "control oriented" that needs a ton of stuff on screen at once, I'd probably choose something else.. it's just a presentation method, nothing more.  I have visual components for store apps that are just as flexible as their WPF and WinForms counterparts.  But a menu or a control panel applet?  It really doesn't matter, both are rather simplistic, pretty basic stuff.  I mean if you've never seen Windows 8 and saw the 10 start menu, you wouldn't even know that it was something else.

[DeadEndAccount]

Nope..

 

Linux=Hobbiest.(tech\server minded)

Windows=Power user.(tons of workstation apps)

Osx=Dumb down basic use.(lack of apps)

 

That's pretty factious statement to make given that it depends on what you want to actually do with your computer; Windows has access to a large array of server applications that exist on Linux and so with OS X, when it comes to workstation - it is dependent upon what you're referring to - Adobe entire product range is available on OS X and Windows, Maple and Mathlab is available on all three platforms, AutoCAD is available on OS X and Windows. Then there is the large array of open source engineering tools that are pretty much available on any operating system that can provide a POSIX/UNIX-like environment.

 

Order_66, you are basically insisting that Windows roll all the way back to the Windows 7 feature set - that not a single feature introduced with Windows 8 or later has ANY merit whatever.

 

First off, do you not have any use for included ISO-mounting (which Windows has lacked as a core feature until merely 8.0)?  An included disk-optimization feature that is good enough to replace third-party software (specifically, Diskeeper)?  A vastly-improved Microsoft Security Essentials (which is what Windows Defender is) that obviates the need for yet more third-party software (the only third-party security software I added was to fix the only hole in MSE/Defender - anti-malware)?  And this is without breaking Win32 compatibility.  (Nobody - not Microsoft or anyone else - including DConnell, Dot Matrix, or me, for that matter - is saying that ModernUI obviates the need for Win32 - it certainly hasn't in my own case; other than the three specific examples I have given, no Win32 software got replaced.)  There is more competition for Win32 as an API - however, that is up to the developers - both of Win32 and ModernUI APIs - to fight over; we, as users, merely reap the rewards in terms of better software regardless of API - in other words, improved software and greater choice.

 

Win32 and the Start menu are NOT synonymous - if they actually were, then a lot of my Win32 daily-use software would have failed to install altogether, let alone worked.  The three games that fail to work in the Technical Preview all DO work in Windows 8 - therefore, the lack of Start menu certainly is not it.  Dependence on the Start menu also does NOT mean dependence on Win32, because one can work without the other.  What's your real peeve with the Technical Preview - the lack of a proper (7-style) Start menu, or the continued presence of ModernUI (which is not an obstacle to Win32, as many users of non-touch-supporting hardware prove on a daily basis)?

 

Win32 does not need the Start menu to survive as an API - Windows 8 itself proved that much.  For users, that may be different - however, that is not an API problem.

ModernUI and Win32 - it can either complement OR compete with it - that depends on the developer.  (However, hasn't that been the case with all other APIs?)

 

That is what I am asking, Order_66 - why the insistence on Win32-only?

 

Modern UI and WinRT are also not synonymous (assuming one defines a Modern UI as something that is full screen) given that you can use WinRT and still present a traditional application as well. What saddens me is how Order_66 keeps ignoring what WinRT brings to the take and how it improves Windows over all; from security to memory management, hardware acceleration, Hi-DPI aware and so on. Heck, I'm not even a Windows user (I'm a full on Apple guy) and if someone like me can see the merit of what Microsoft is doing I really have to ask what planet Order_66 is on when he writes his opinions. Assuming one defines Modern UI is as the combination of both full screen and windowed WinRT applications then quite frankly I cannot see what merit his arguments have - vendors that wish to keep their existing UI design can do so, win32 applications will keep running, in fact I'd argue that most win32 applications aren't win32 given that many, such as Adobe, have their own custom overlays to make their code more portable or prefer the flexibility of using a third party toolkit such as Videolan basing their GUI on Qt which makes targeting multi-platforms easier.

[nosense]

Still missing a lot of software like 3dstudio max, visual studio , solid works,etc. In my case , I needed packer tracer to take a class final and my mbp didn't have a vm installed. I had to use a loaner laptop with windows.

 

That's pretty factious statement to make given that it depends on what you want to actually do with your computer; Windows has access to a large array of server applications that exist on Linux and so with OS X, when it comes to workstation - it is dependent upon what you're referring to - Adobe entire product range is available on OS X and Windows, Maple and Mathlab is available on all three platforms, AutoCAD is available on OS X and Windows. Then there is the large array of open source engineering tools that are pretty much available on any operating system that can provide a POSIX/UNIX-like environment.

 

 

Modern UI and WinRT are also not synonymous (assuming one defines a Modern UI as something that is full screen) given that you can use WinRT and still present a traditional application as well. What saddens me is how Order_66 keeps ignoring what WinRT brings to the take and how it improves Windows over all; from security to memory management, hardware acceleration, Hi-DPI aware and so on. Heck, I'm not even a Windows user (I'm a full on Apple guy) and if someone like me can see the merit of what Microsoft is doing I really have to ask what planet Order_66 is on when he writes his opinions. Assuming one defines Modern UI is as the combination of both full screen and windowed WinRT applications then quite frankly I cannot see what merit his arguments have - vendors that wish to keep their existing UI design can do so, win32 applications will keep running, in fact I'd argue that most win32 applications aren't win32 given that many, such as Adobe, have their own custom overlays to make their code more portable or prefer the flexibility of using a third party toolkit such as Videolan basing their GUI on Qt which makes targeting multi-platforms easier.

[DeadEndAccount]

Still missing a lot of software like 3dstudio max, visual studio , solid works,etc. In my case , I needed packer tracer to take a class final and my mbp didn't have a vm installed. I had to use a loaner laptop with windows.

 

True but it doesn't make OS X 'Dumb down basic use.(lack of apps)' given that it depends upon the context of what you're trying to achieve. Personally I don't ever seeing Solidworks multiplatform simply because in my experience it is so heavily integrated with the operating system I couldn't see the company spending what it would take to first of all unhook itself from win32 then moving the code to something that is platform neutral. End of the day, you were probably better off getting a Lenovo Thinkpad T or W series rather than purchasing a Mac given the dependency you have on Windows applications.

[nosense]

This is going to be my last mac laptop after owning 4 different mac laptops(g5 mac book,mac book c2d,mac book air, mb pro). It simply does not fit my needs and turned me off after experience hardware problems(Mac book air overheating and g5 on board videocard problem) after the warranty period.

True but it doesn't make OS X 'Dumb down basic use.(lack of apps)' given that it depends upon the context of what you're trying to achieve. Personally I don't ever seeing Solidworks multiplatform simply because in my experience it is so heavily integrated with the operating system I couldn't see the company spending what it would take to first of all unhook itself from win32 then moving the code to something that is platform neutral. End of the day, you were probably better off getting a Lenovo Thinkpad T or W series rather than purchasing a Mac given the dependency you have on Windows applications.

[BajiRav]

Actually windows 8, and now 10, is demonstrably "dumbed down" with metro garbage.

 

Metro is backwards thinking, regressive in every way and with demonstrably reduced features and functionality it really has no place on a truly modern desktop whatsoever.

 

Here are just a few examples:

 

Metro Skype: No audio or video adjustments, modern desktop skype has all of this and much more.

Metro video: Extremely limited video adjustments, modern desktop windows media player has these settings and many more.

Metro mail: Lacking horribly in all areas, even modern desktop windows live mail completely demolishes it, and that is truly a sad fact.

 

This list could go on and on but you get the idea.

I don't get the idea because this is not a thread meant for discussion of metro.

I don't want to go on because this same garbage got the other thread closed.

[Studio384]

Windows Technical Preview.

 

This is a discussion thread for that topic, I am voicing a legitimate concern, if you don't like it then I suggest you use the ignore feature, name calling, trolling, flame baiting, this seems to be the typical response and I am not guilty of any of it, I'm here to discuss windows 10 and its eventual failure/success.

 

Which metro apps are just as powerful and have matched, feature for feature, functionality for functionality, with modern desktop software?

Of the build-in apps in Windows 8.1? Well, search, mail, calendar, contacts, news, weather, money, health, sports, etc. And the reason is obvious: none of these apps have a Win32 counterpart, or ever had in the first place. Only Calculator, Sound Recorder, Settings and Internet Explorer replace Win32 versions, and from those, only Settings and Internet Explorer contain less features then their Win32 counterpart. However, that has nothing to do with Metro beeing "proven to contain less features". That's just bs. You can perfectly develop an app as complex as Adobe Photoshop CC 2014.1 in the Modern UI. The Windows Technical Preview has started to replace old Win32 apps with their WinRT counterparts already. For now, that's only the calculator, which is in Modern UI much more advanced, and some dialogues from the Control Panel, whichs Modern UI counterparts are also much more advanced. Windows Update in the Modern UI environment has a much better interface then the old control panel one. Now that the Metro interface no longer is supposed to be tablet-exclusive, the apps will contain much more features too. Heck, there is a fbl_outlook branch in the development of Windows 10, what do you think that one is used for?

 

You can say whatever you want, but calling Metro disfunctional isn't an opinion, that's what we call a "lie". You obviously have no experience with developing for the Modern UI environment. Neither do you appear to have any experience with Windows 10:

 

Wrong, the control panel has been replaced with a metro version, the user is now forced into using metro garbage with windows 10.

Because that is not true either. Not in the most recent Windows Technical Preview, nor the most recent leak, which was buil 9901. You're free to use the control panel if you want. Unless that is for Windows Update (in build 9901). But why wouldn't you? Like I said, the Modern UI version of Windows Update has a much better interface, you can change what it needs to look for (Windows Update or Microsoft Update) without the need of going to a website, you see while installing what the updates that are beeing installed do, etc. These are all things you can't do in the Control Panel's counterpart of Windows Update.

 

I'm not insistent on win32 only, if microsoft came up with a better upgrade then I will be 100% for it but metro is not the answer, not even close.

Well, then, enlight us. WHY do you think WinRT isn't the answer? Metro is a design language, thus that can't be the problem, ecause you can perfectly have Metro-styled desktop apps. Examples? Well, Internet Explorer 10 and 11 are, Windows Essentials 2012 are Metro-styled too. Office 2013 is too. Prety much every recent Microsoft software is Metro styled. Server Manager is an awesome, true Metro-styled, advanced app.

However, that means that you're issue is in the runtime, WinRT. So what's the problem with that? Do you have any experience developing for it?

[HawkMan]

In terms of video editing apps, I can't believe I'm going to say this... but I have to agree that there are not any great ones that come close to even Windows Movie Maker except for Movie Creator Beta, which does not implement a proper timeline. It also doesn't have picture in picture, green screen capability, etc. However, if Devs spent more time on it, which I hope they will, maybe one day it can become just as powerful. Especially now that they can scale to the desktop (mouse and keyboard), up to Surface like devices, down to phones.

 

 

I downloaded one that was more powerful than the "old" Movie maker in the free version, but you needed to upgrade to the paid version for full functionality.

 

Movie maker is unfortunately unusable today due to it's limited support of input formats. so I can't use it for the movies from my SJ4000 action cam for example. 

[HawkMan]

No experience with it myself, video editing isn't my thing, but one of my neighbors has PowerDirector on her Surface Pro 3 that looked decent -- I wouldn't call it a Premiere killer but it looked quite on par with many "home level" video editors for Win32, even the interface is quite similar. Looking over the features.. about the same, hell even the interface is very similar to its desktop counterpart.  Random search image:

 

 

I dunno, it looks more than capable enough to handle a group of icons in a control panel setup.  Again, don't assume apps designed for a small device to be indicative of what the platform's capable of.  I can just as easily write a badly designed full screen calculator app in WinForms or WPF, does that mean the classic interfaces suck too?  Of course not... it's just a framework, it's as bad or as good as the programmers make it to be.  

 

That's the one I used. it was in many ways better than pinnacle Studio and definitely more stable, since Studio crashed on me several times on one video last time I used it which made me want to go back and buy the full version of this. 

 

As for Premiere, premiere is more of a low end pro software, it requires a lot of learning just to do basic stuff. which is weird since it used to be a lot easier to use in the earlier days. 

[Dot Matrix]

Guys, again it seems like it's time to start blocking Order_66. His posts aren't going to change, and at this point they're just flaming threads for a response.

Mods, I do apologize if speaking out like this goes against a rule, but I felt like it needed saying.

[gohpep]

Give metro time. Office is being ported over now, and there are more apps to follow. Win32 will die eventually.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

Guys, again it seems like it's time to start blocking Order_66. His posts aren't going to change, and at this point they're just flaming threads for a response.

Mods, I do apologize if speaking out like this goes against a rule, but I felt like it needed saying.

 

Why don't you just block him?  /shrugs

[Dot Matrix]

Why don't you just block him? /shrugs

I have.

[PGHammer]

Of the build-in apps in Windows 8.1? Well, search, mail, calendar, contacts, news, weather, money, health, sports, etc. And the reason is obvious: none of these apps have a Win32 counterpart, or ever had in the first place. Only Calculator, Sound Recorder, Settings and Internet Explorer replace Win32 versions, and from those, only Settings and Internet Explorer contain less features then their Win32 counterpart. However, that has nothing to do with Metro beeing "proven to contain less features". That's just bs. You can perfectly develop an app as complex as Adobe Photoshop CC 2014.1 in the Modern UI. The Windows Technical Preview has started to replace old Win32 apps with their WinRT counterparts already. For now, that's only the calculator, which is in Modern UI much more advanced, and some dialogues from the Control Panel, whichs Modern UI counterparts are also much more advanced. Windows Update in the Modern UI environment has a much better interface then the old control panel one. Now that the Metro interface no longer is supposed to be tablet-exclusive, the apps will contain much more features too. Heck, there is a fbl_outlook branch in the development of Windows 10, what do you think that one is used for?

 

You can say whatever you want, but calling Metro disfunctional isn't an opinion, that's what we call a "lie". You obviously have no experience with developing for the Modern UI environment. Neither do you appear to have any experience with Windows 10:

 

Because that is not true either. Not in the most recent Windows Technical Preview, nor the most recent leak, which was buil 9901. You're free to use the control panel if you want. Unless that is for Windows Update (in build 9901). But why wouldn't you? Like I said, the Modern UI version of Windows Update has a much better interface, you can change what it needs to look for (Windows Update or Microsoft Update) without the need of going to a website, you see while installing what the updates that are beeing installed do, etc. These are all things you can't do in the Control Panel's counterpart of Windows Update.

 

Well, then, enlight us. WHY do you think WinRT isn't the answer? Metro is a design language, thus that can't be the problem, ecause you can perfectly have Metro-styled desktop apps. Examples? Well, Internet Explorer 10 and 11 are, Windows Essentials 2012 are Metro-styled too. Office 2013 is too. Prety much every recent Microsoft software is Metro styled. Server Manager is an awesome, true Metro-styled, advanced app.

However, that means that you're issue is in the runtime, WinRT. So what's the problem with that? Do you have any experience developing for it?

 

I have used 9901 (the most recent leak) -  both in a bare install AND in a virtual machine.  It is no more broken (in my experience) than 9879 is - in fact, as a forward-pointer, there is a ton to look forward to in future builds.

 

1.  Cortana for Windows - 9901 has it active, and, despite some gimpage still, it was certainly plenty usable - it is no LESS usable than Google Now or Siri is today.  (Google Now and Siri are basically on-call personal assistants that only eat electrons, only sleep when the hardware that you are using is, and are waiting, with ears wide open, to go out and find what you are seeking.  Google Now is limited to Google software, while Siri is limited to iOS - there is no OS X version of Siri, much to Apple's shame.  This isn't war; this - is - BUSINESS.  Satya Nadella has outright declared business on Apple and Google.)

 

2.  Settings (9901) - 9901 goes a great deal further than 9879 does; Category View returned as the default because of that.  One thing that Windows 8 was justifiably faulted for was lack of adjustability - with 9901 it has adjustability far in excess of any version of Windows - or any other OS, for that matter. I referred to it as "adjustability up the wazoo" - and I haven't discovered everything.

 

3.  fbl_outlook - That is a rather large hint; is there also an fbl_word or fbl_excel?  As to why I don't use Office Online, who says I don't?  The only reason I don't use Office Online on my personal desktop (or notebook) is because I have Office installed locally - period.  It certainly is NOT feature lack - because there isn't any feature lack.  In fact, Outlook.com supports Yahoo Mail - which desktop Outlook does NOT do.  (While Outlook.com imports my Yahoo Mail on a daily basis, I can't export the imported mail to desktop Outlook.  It's not an Outlook issue, but a Yahoo Mail feature issue, and it's unique to the United States - POP3 access is a fee-generating issue for US users of Yahoo Mail; it's not the case anywhere else.)

 

4.  There may yet be more upcoming, and quite a lot could well be of interest to users that want no part of touch normally.  Note that none of what I have pointed to so far requires touch support - in fact, all of it can be used by keyboard and mouse users today.  (Cortana uses either keyboard or voice input - just as Google Now or Siri does today.)

[Kazama Levi]

Anyone having issues with the "No such interface supported" message whenever trying to open files associated to certain apps. I've attached a screenshot of me trying to open a music file. This happens randomly.

 

Something triggers it for a while and then everything goes back to normal. I'm saying this because minutes ago I was able to open any media files no problem.

 

Perhaps Windows 10 has no taste and doesn't like Morning Musume

 

Have you checked the file association? Open the File Association dialog in Control Panel, look for mp3 and see if the correct program for opening mp3 files is listed.

[4ny0n3]

_{Perhaps Windows 10 has no taste and doesn't like Morning Musume}

 

_{Have you checked the file association? Open the File Association dialog in Control Panel, look for mp3 and see if the correct program for opening mp3 files is listed.}

 

_{Well, the thing is that it happens and fixes itself at random. So, yeah. There's a commandline trick I found that fixes it but takes a long while and the problem will happen soon after that. I guess it's a flaw. I really want the official Consumer Preview to leak.}

 

I think Windows likes Momusu. Otherwise I wouldn't like it that much.

[Order_66]

That's the one I used. it was in many ways better than pinnacle Studio and definitely more stable, since Studio crashed on me several times on one video last time I used it which made me want to go back and buy the full version of this. 

 

As for Premiere, premiere is more of a low end pro software, it requires a lot of learning just to do basic stuff. which is weird since it used to be a lot easier to use in the earlier days. 

 

 

I installed powerdirector and gave it a try, while it is certainly head and shoulders above 99% of other metro apps it simply fails to impress when compared to modern desktop programs.

[Order_66]

Give metro time. Office is being ported over now, and there are more apps to follow. Win32 will die eventually.

 

And that is the sad state of things with arrogant microsoft, forcing modern win32 to the curb in favor of regressive 1980's metro garbage that is horribly lacking in features and functionality.

 

Change just for the sake of change.

[TDT]

Oh dear God...

[Pulagatha]

And that is the sad state of things with arrogant microsoft, forcing modern win32 to the curb in favor of regressive 1980's metro garbage that is horribly lacking in features and functionality.

 

Change just for the sake of change.

 

What do you think of the PowerPoint demo at Build 2014? I'm not the biggest fan of Metro, but I think what they showed at Build 2014 with PowerPoint seemed very promising.