[OFFICIAL] Windows 10 Insider Program

[PGHammer]

Oh dear God...

He has landed in my plonk file - in fact, he is one of only two Neowinians in it.  (And it takes a LOT to land in my plonk file.)

[PGHammer]

Windows has not been a single-API operating system ever - it was only a single-API operating environment before Windows 3.0, for that matter.

 

Still, the emotions of a Certain Poster make me wonder how many Windows users SHARE that rather convoluted (and easily disproved) theory that the most-used features are required by a particular API.

 

Have we forgotten the immediate predecessor to Win32 as an API (for the non-NT set), Win32s?

 

Win32s (the s stood for "subset") was designed to enable exactly that - a subset designed for use by specific Win32 (then, it meant Windows NT) applications.

 

Win32s was an optional add-in for Windows 3.x - not a standard feature - in fact, only two versions of Windows ever used it (Windows 3.x and Windows for Workgroups 3.x) - the only MICROSOFT application that ever required it was, oddly enough, the new networking add-in for these two versions of Windows (the Internet Connectivity Pack for Windows 3.x).

 

Yet even then (during the tailchase of the Windows 95 beta), the brouhaha over the Start menu was ongoing (even though the idea that Program Manager was roadblocked by the Start menu was being thoroughly disproven).

 

If you have access to old copies of Windows NT (specifically, NT 3.51 Workstation) and the original Office 95, the theory that Start menu = Win32 is easier than ever to disprove - install that productivity suite in your fresh NT 3.51 (after applying the last Service Pack for NT 3.5).  It will work.

 

Yet NT 3.51 has no Start menu - the default for all flavors of NT 3.x is, in fact, Program Manager/File Manager. How is that possible?

 

Simple enough - while the Start menu requires, at minimum, Win32s, Office 95 requires Win32.  It is a difference mismatch, but a critical one for each application.  Application?  Yes - application.  The Start menu is exactly that - an application, given away for free, but no less an application than Notepad - or Wordpad, or even Write.  (Yes - Wordpad would replace Write, but said replacement happened with NT first - specifically NT Workstation 4.0 and Service Pack 4; Write would, in fact, hang on through Windows 98 Classic or to finally have its chop called with Windows 98 SE.)

 

The Start menu originally required (and was part of) Windows Explorer (explorer,exe) - it is why General Protection Faults with Explorer.exe (in both 9x and NT) were so roundly and scathingly criticized.

[HawkMan]

I installed powerdirector and gave it a try, while it is certainly head and shoulders above 99% of other metro apps it simply fails to impress when compared to modern desktop programs.

 

Like what ?

 

it's equal to any comparable software like Pinnacle studio.  but let's keep the comparison fair and simple what free software is even remotely close to powerdirector ?  and on top o that, I can use powerdirector on my Lenovo Miix2 11 on the go. which I can't with any of the other software, without hooking up a mouse and other crap and sitting down. 

 

So not only is it comparable to it's desktop counterpart that cost a lot more, it's superior to any comparably priced offering, and in some ways better than the more expensive desktop software.  you know if we take all features into consideration and not only the features that only exist on the desktop versions...

[Studio384]

I have used 9901 (the most recent leak) -  both in a bare install AND in a virtual machine.  It is no more broken (in my experience) than 9879 is - in fact, as a forward-pointer, there is a ton to look forward to in future builds.

 

1.  Cortana for Windows - 9901 has it active, and, despite some gimpage still, it was certainly plenty usable - it is no LESS usable than Google Now or Siri is today.  (Google Now and Siri are basically on-call personal assistants that only eat electrons, only sleep when the hardware that you are using is, and are waiting, with ears wide open, to go out and find what you are seeking.  Google Now is limited to Google software, while Siri is limited to iOS - there is no OS X version of Siri, much to Apple's shame.  This isn't war; this - is - BUSINESS.  Satya Nadella has outright declared business on Apple and Google.)

 

2.  Settings (9901) - 9901 goes a great deal further than 9879 does; Category View returned as the default because of that.  One thing that Windows 8 was justifiably faulted for was lack of adjustability - with 9901 it has adjustability far in excess of any version of Windows - or any other OS, for that matter. I referred to it as "adjustability up the wazoo" - and I haven't discovered everything.

 

3.  fbl_outlook - That is a rather large hint; is there also an fbl_word or fbl_excel?  As to why I don't use Office Online, who says I don't?  The only reason I don't use Office Online on my personal desktop (or notebook) is because I have Office installed locally - period.  It certainly is NOT feature lack - because there isn't any feature lack.  In fact, Outlook.com supports Yahoo Mail - which desktop Outlook does NOT do.  (While Outlook.com imports my Yahoo Mail on a daily basis, I can't export the imported mail to desktop Outlook.  It's not an Outlook issue, but a Yahoo Mail feature issue, and it's unique to the United States - POP3 access is a fee-generating issue for US users of Yahoo Mail; it's not the case anywhere else.)

 

4.  There may yet be more upcoming, and quite a lot could well be of interest to users that want no part of touch normally.  Note that none of what I have pointed to so far requires touch support - in fact, all of it can be used by keyboard and mouse users today.  (Cortana uses either keyboard or voice input - just as Google Now or Siri does today.)

Wasn't realy pointed to you, more to Order_66, and I would love to read his response to it, seems like he is ignoring my post for some reason.

[Order_66]

Like what ?

 

it's equal to any comparable software like Pinnacle studio.  but let's keep the comparison fair and simple what free software is even remotely close to powerdirector ?  and on top o that, I can use powerdirector on my Lenovo Miix2 11 on the go. which I can't with any of the other software, without hooking up a mouse and other crap and sitting down. 

 

So not only is it comparable to it's desktop counterpart that cost a lot more, it's superior to any comparably priced offering, and in some ways better than the more expensive desktop software.  you know if we take all features into consideration and not only the features that only exist on the desktop versions...

 

I think a person should at least use powerdirector if they are going to proclaim it's better than something else, it's still a few steps behind free windows movie maker.

 

It is a good program, without a doubt the best metro program I've used so far, why can't other metro apps be anywhere close to this good? every other metro app I've tried was greatly lacking in features and functionality when compared to modern desktop programs.

 

It's been more than 2 years for skype, mail, video, music etc etc, why are metro apps lacking so badly in features and functionality? and why should I accept being forced into this metro environment?

[Order_66]

seems like he is ignoring my post for some reason.

 

If you start your post directed at me with a lie, then call me a liar, followed with trolling semantics, then really I have no reply to you, I'm here to discuss windows technical preview, not to attack people because they don't drink the koolaid.

[nosense]

No body is forcing anything on you. Don't like it. don't use it. It's not like the MS blocked you from using a win32 version.

It's been more than 2 years for skype, mail, video, music etc etc, why are metro apps lacking so badly in features and functionality? and why should I accept being forced into this metro environment?

[Order_66]

No body is forcing anything on you. Don't like it don't use it. It's not like the MS blocked you from using a win32 version.

 

Actually MS is replacing the modern control panel with a metro version, that is forcing people into metro.

[nosense]

Have they said that? It seems like you're from the furture using the final build.

Actually MS is replacing the modern control panel with a metro version, that is forcing people into metro.

Making a single settings panel in metro isn't forcing you to use skype\mail\music\video metro app.

[Max Norris]

Have they said that?

Making a single settings panel in metro isn't forcing you to use skype\mail\music\video metro app.

Never mind it's very likely to be functionally near identical to the old version. Mobile users will probably get a full screen version (like the PC Settings from 8.x), desktops will get the iconized in a window version, like they're doing with the start menu.

I mean, placeholder icons aside, how much different is it, really? Icons? Search box? A typical dialog box? Check, check and check. (If you missed it, modern apps aren't necessarily full screen anymore.) Quite the learning curve there, never mind having to re-master clicking icons and all that.

[nosense]

The people are whinning about the new metro settings is because the lack of view by small icon\large icon\category. Since this is a leak beta and very early on the beta phase. We have no idea if its going to have those option or not have those option.

 

But ya this discussion has being going on muti threads and muti threads have been closed, because the same users saying the same thing.

Never mind it's very likely to be functionally near identical to the old version. Mobile users will probably get a full screen version (like the PC Settings from 8.x), desktops will get the iconized in a window version, like they're doing with the start menu.

I mean, placeholder icons aside, how much different is it, really? Icons? Search box? A typical dialog box? Check, check and check. (If you missed it, modern apps aren't necessarily full screen anymore.) Quite the learning curve there, never mind having to re-master clicking icons and all that.

[Studio384]

If you start your post directed at me with a lie, then call me a liar, followed with trolling semantics, then really I have no reply to you, I'm here to discuss windows technical preview, not to attack people because they don't drink the koolaid.

I'm sorry, but where do I lie in my post? It's obvious that you just hate it because you hate it, otherwise there is no reason to not respond to my post, which simply is a build up out of facts.

[DeadEndAccount]

I think a person should at least use powerdirector if they are going to proclaim it's better than something else, it's still a few steps behind free windows movie maker.

 

It is a good program, without a doubt the best metro program I've used so far, why can't other metro apps be anywhere close to this good? every other metro app I've tried was greatly lacking in features and functionality when compared to modern desktop programs.

 

It's been more than 2 years for skype, mail, video, music etc etc, why are metro apps lacking so badly in features and functionality? and why should I accept being forced into this metro environment?

 

Where is Microsoft forcing this upon you? You can still download the traditional desktop Skype, Live Mail, Windows Media Player etc. I don't see any of that being taken away and when they do eventually replace it with a WinRT version it will be 90% of the way that that will satisfy 90% of the end users.

[+Anarkii Subscriber²]

Actually windows 8, and now 10, is demonstrably "dumbed down" with metro garbage.

 

Metro is backwards thinking, regressive in every way and with demonstrably reduced features and functionality it really has no place on a truly modern desktop whatsoever.

 

Here are just a few examples:

 

Metro Skype: No audio or video adjustments, modern desktop skype has all of this and much more.

Metro video: Extremely limited video adjustments, modern desktop windows media player has these settings and many more.

Metro mail: Lacking horribly in all areas, even modern desktop windows live mail completely demolishes it, and that is truly a sad fact.

 

This list could go on and on but you get the idea.

Totally agree with you. 

Metro apps are dumbed down versions of desktop apps, dumbed down so much that the apps drag your IQ down with them by using them.

Thankfully Windows 10 allows you to never ever see any metro what so ever, which is perfect for us users with a IQ that is higher than a whinging baby.

[George P Global Moderator]

I can't wait to see what the excuses will be when we get more and more feature rich metro apps.  I also get a kick out of comparing apps that are one to two years into development with desktop counterparts that have been worked on for more than 10 years, in some cases over twenty.

 

Comparing metro mail and windows live mail for example. Windows live mail was/is just a repackaged outlook express which has been around since windows 95. It's apples to oranges but it's the only defense left for those who don't like metro apps. How about we compare mail to outlook express v2 and see just how far apart they really are feature wise or how dumbed down they are.

[PotatoAlchemist]

Especially because the way Windows 10 aims to go for, at least considering the changes happening in the 9901 build, indeed some of the in-built applications are getting replaced with the WinRT counterpart. Calculator got replaced with the WinRT one already, heck, even if you type calc in the Run dialog, you'll end up starting that one instead of the older Win32. Sound Recorder might be next that gets only one version remaining, mainly the WinRT one.

 

However, this presents one advantage, as these apps are being also part of the Windows Store ecosystem, meaning that these can have updates independently of the OS, as long as it supports the said OS' API. However, if Windows 10 is going to have larger updates going on throughout its support, then both the API might get major upgrades from time to time too, meaning more WinRT functionalities without waiting for a whole new major Windows version and such. Also, Windows 8.1 Update 1 changed the defaults to be the Win32 apps for Music, Video, Pictures and such, Windows 10 apparently switched it back to the WinRT ones.  

[HawkMan]

I think a person should at least use powerdirector if they are going to proclaim it's better than something else, it's still a few steps behind free windows movie maker.

 

It is a good program, without a doubt the best metro program I've used so far, why can't other metro apps be anywhere close to this good? every other metro app I've tried was greatly lacking in features and functionality when compared to modern desktop programs.

 

It's been more than 2 years for skype, mail, video, music etc etc, why are metro apps lacking so badly in features and functionality? and why should I accept being forced into this metro environment?

 

 

I use power director and Pinnacle Studio which is miles beyond Windows movie maker.

 

the fact you even claim power director isn't as good as Windows movie maker shows you haven't used Director at all. It's miles beyond WMM, WMM doesn't even use a timeline view anymore, and it has far more limited control of effects, audio, and basic editing. And then there's the coup de grace, WMM has extremely limited support of input videos, so it can't even edit the movies from my SJ4000. 

 

So it's far beyond WMM, and up to par with Pinnacle studio for the most part. 

Actually MS is replacing the modern control panel with a metro version, that is forcing people into metro.

 

a MODERN(not metro) control panel that recreates all the functions of the old classic and very very badly aged control panel, and it can be run in windowed mode as the old one. 

 

so what exactly is your problem ? Maybe take your own(albeit in that case misguided and misinformed) suggestion and use it first. 

[Eric Veteran]

Keep this thread on topic or warnings will go out.

 

Reminder: "X sucks" is not acceptable here unless you actually include something to discuss with it.

[Guest]

Totally agree with you. 

Metro apps are dumbed down versions of desktop apps, dumbed down so much that the apps drag your IQ down with them by using them.

Thankfully Windows 10 allows you to never ever see any metro what so ever, which is perfect for us users with a IQ that is higher than a whinging baby.

 

Liked for comedy.

[Studio384]

Totally agree with you. 

Metro apps are dumbed down versions of desktop apps, dumbed down so much that the apps drag your IQ down with them by using them.

Thankfully Windows 10 allows you to never ever see any metro what so ever, which is perfect for us users with a IQ that is higher than a whinging baby.

Made my day.

 

Anyway, that's simply how some of these apps where designed. Sure, the Modern UI interface is much simpeler then the interface we've gotten used to. But that doesn't make an app a dumbed down version feature wise. Like I've said earlier. The apps that are fully replacing old screens in 9901 have a much simpeler interface, yet are so much more powerful (I'm looking at you Windows Update and Calculator). Sure, only 2 have been truely replaced - and that's not forcing something upon a user, that's simply replacing a thing that is better than its precessor - but more are coming. Like it or not, WinRT is the future.

 

The fact is that you have no reason to not like it. Like I said: it's perfectly possible that you can make a very complex application in WinRT. A replacement for Photoshop CC 2014.1 is perfectly possible (it just takes some time to build an application people have been working on for years upon a new framework). In fact, Microsoft is about to prove it with rebuilding Office in WinRT. WinRT is just much better then Win32, as it is based on modern development principles. If you're a developer, you would know that. Beside, Metro apps don't have to be touch-friendly. Continuum will probably also provide developers an option to switch between touch optimized interfaces and mouse-optimized interfaces for  their apps, instead of just the Windows interface.

[Eric Veteran]

[Thread cleaned]

[PGHammer]

I use power director and Pinnacle Studio which is miles beyond Windows movie maker.

 

the fact you even claim power director isn't as good as Windows movie maker shows you haven't used Director at all. It's miles beyond WMM, WMM doesn't even use a timeline view anymore, and it has far more limited control of effects, audio, and basic editing. And then there's the coup de grace, WMM has extremely limited support of input videos, so it can't even edit the movies from my SJ4000. 

 

So it's far beyond WMM, and up to par with Pinnacle studio for the most part. 

 

a MODERN(not metro) control panel that recreates all the functions of the old classic and very very badly aged control panel, and it can be run in windowed mode as the old one. 

 

so what exactly is your problem ? Maybe take your own(albeit in that case misguided and misinformed) suggestion and use it first. 

 

It sounds (he's in my plonk file, so I have no idea what he actually is thinking since I placed him there - and its a question I HAVE asked before) like he is thinking like some others - that there is no need for simple and concise software for PCs and/or Windows.

 

That is so wrong (and so false) that I cannot believe that anyone even THINKS that.

 

There has ALWAYS been a need - if not outright DEMAND - for simple and concise software for Windows - in fact, look at exactly what Windows 3.1 (and Windows NT 3.1, for that matter) included, and what has replaced those very same inclusions.

 

Calculator goes back that far - so does WordPad (which started as Write).  Pretty much ALL the included software in every version of Windows has had one particular reasoning behind it - simple and concise.

 

What did Write add on the way to WordPad?  It added a grand total of ONE feature - cross-compatibility with Word documents.  That's it.

 

What did Windows Messaging (formerly Exchange Client) add?  Again, just a single feature - IMAP support (in fact, it dropped POP3 support - however, a large number of ISPs have ALSO dropped POP3 support).  Net change - zero.

 

Not everyone needs or even WANTS a big (and over-featured, and thus bloated) application for anything. Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't need - let alone purchase - the entirety of Microsoft Office Professional Plus - ninety percent of the time, I can find what I need in Word, Outlook, or (VERY occasionally) Excel - I certainly have no need for Access any more.  (The lack of a need for Access is because of the greater ease of use, greater feature set, and MUCH lower price of - of all software, Microsoft's own SQL Server (the Express iteration, to be precise); I can use SQL Server Express for anything I used to use Access for - and then some - all for a cost of NONE.  Therefore I need Access *why*?)

 

By definition, a bloated application (or software suite of any sort) includes too many features that too many users don't use - both Nero and Microsoft Office have been thrown into that category - and that is since 1997.

 

The need for simple and concise has not gone away - and especially not in terms of Windows.  In fact, if anything, as more and more Win32 applications have added and added (and added ad infinitum) features to where they have gotten overly complex and complicated/bloated, the need for simple and concise has gone up - not down.

 

How do you satisfy that still-existing need for simple and concise AND use features that Win32 (as an API mind you) flat-out lacks?  You need a new API that doesn't roadblock the old one.  Microsoft created the Modern design language and the WinRT API to tackle the issue of missing feature support while still allowing small and concise applications, while adding support for managed code (Win32 support for managed code has severe issues still - and that is from developers).  The Modern design language can, in fact, be used by Win32 applications (Server Manager uses it - and that's included with Windows Server 2012); so does MetroIRC (today) and MetroTwit (now dead/moribund).

 

WinRT-based applications CAN compete with Win32 applications - or not; however, that is up to developers (at both ends), as one doesn't block the other.  Which application wins is entirely user-dependent.  Bragging that you need this big bloated complicated application is just that - bragging.  Not everyone needs something that big - or even has USE for something that big.

 

Insisting that everyone needs big and bloated applications is like insisting that everyone needs a six-core CPU - flatly and patently false.

[chrisj1968]

If you're using Classic Shell in Windows 10, then you shouldn't use Windows 10. There is a reason Microsft blocked CS, they need feedback, and you're just not giving it to them, which in the long run, only hurts you.

 

Here's the problem with that thinking. while they want feedback, they are preventing a developer from creating an app for use by users. If users of CS give feedback to the developer, the developer can then relay info to MSFT about issues. either way, MSFT will get the feedback they desire

[Max Norris]

Here's the problem with that thinking. while they want feedback, they are preventing a developer from creating an app for use by users.

That's what the developer previews are typically for, too early for third party testing as stuff is still very much in a state of flux. Why test now when it's likely going to break next month, etc.

[Dot Matrix]

For those saying that you can "avoid" Metro, I hate to break it to you, but Windows *is* Metro. Metro is more than just the live tiles, it's an entire design principle. Perhaps you should read up on it.