[Official] Star Trek: Discovery Thread

[FloatingFatMan]

On 1/24/2019 at 4:24 PM, Human.Online said:

The number of people who actually care about "canon violation" as opposed to those who enjoy watching a fun piece of episodic sci-fi with an interesting arc.

Some people are quick to dismiss hardcore fans, but remember this. Without us, there would have been no movies, no TNG, no DS9, No Voyager, no Enterprise and no Discovery.  CBS appear to be learning that if you ignore your hardcore fanbase in favour of the new generation of fans, you put yourself in peril.  Paramount failed to learn this, and the new movies are now dead.

[George P Global Moderator]

5 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Some people are quick to dismiss hardcore fans, but remember this. Without us, there would have been no movies, no TNG, no DS9, No Voyager, no Enterprise and no Discovery.  CBS appear to be learning that if you ignore your hardcore fanbase in favour of the new generation of fans, you put yourself in peril.  Paramount failed to learn this, and the new movies are now dead.

If you're referring to movie 4 being canceled/put on hold, it has less to do with hardcore fans and more to do with studio business.  There's lots of competition out there from all these ongoing comic book movies that finding a good release date for trek isn't easy.  Also all the reports of money are a huge key, if the actors want double what they got for the first 3 then it plays a huge factor as well.   There is also ongoing sale talks between the company that owns Paramount and the owners of CBS that are a factor.  If they finally make a deal we could get movie and tv series trek to match up again.

 

Lots of the same fans of the movies are fans that are turning CBS All Access into a success,    There is no doubt that the new movies played their part and grew the fanbase, were the last "true trek" series, Enterprise ended up losing viewers and almost killed Trek for good.

 

Hate on the new movies all you want, but they brought Trek back to life, if you don't like Discovery that's fine, it looks like it's got enough fans to keep it going and also give us 2-3 new TV series that are already in the works to further expand Trek.

[FloatingFatMan]

52 minutes ago, George P said:

it has less to do with hardcore fans and more to do with studio business. 

And that has everything to do with the fans.  The last few movies failed to make bank. Why? Because the hardcore fanbase didn't go to see them. Why? Because they were not the Trek they wanted.

 

If you don't give the majority fanbase what they want, they won't pay to see it, leaving you with just the new generation of fans. There aren't enough of those to cover your costs so the financial backers, back out.  End of new movies.

 

As I said in my post, CBS appear to be learning that the fanbase are the ones that you have to please, hence Discovery season 2 is a LOT better than season 1 and this second episode I would be happy to say was fairly good, and would even rate being called the kind of Trek the fanbase are looking for, with just enough of the more modern style to also please the new fans.  THIS is the type of formula they need to stick to.  I hope they manage it for the full season because if they don't, there won't be a season 3.

 

Edited January 27, 2019 by FloatingFatMan

[George P Global Moderator]

31 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

And that has everything to do with the fans.  The last few movies failed to make bank. Why? Because the hardcore fanbase didn't go to see them. Why? Because they were not the Trek they wanted.

 

If you don't give the majority fanbase what they want, they won't pay to see it, leaving you with just the new generation of fans. There aren't enough of those to cover your costs so the financial backers, back out.  End of new movies.

 

As I said in my post, CBS appear to be learning that the fanbase are the ones that you have to please, hence Discovery season 2 is a LOT better than season 1 and this second episode I would be happy to say was fairly good, and would even rate being called the kind of Trek the fanbase are looking for, with just enough of the more modern style to also please the new fans.  THIS is the type of formula they need to stick to.  I hope they manage it for the full season because if they don't, there won't be a season 3.

 

I disagree to the level of effect the old fanbase had on the movies, specially beyond.  That movie would've made easily another $100million in the US with a better release date.  The issue is that there was no good release date that year.  It was full of big name comic book movies back to back.  You have to take into account the release schedule from other studios when you plan your own movies release date.     Aquaman for example has made over a billion as quick as it has specifically because it's got zero to very little competition for it's first month.      That's a business decision that has little to do with hardcore fans, you need to at least admit that the hardcore fanbase isn't enough to keep this type of show going.  I don't see how some of you think otherwise.   If it was enough, and it wasn't in decline till the new movies in 2009, then why for gods sake did it take so long to get a new TV series at all after Enterprise nosedived?   What was holding CBS back exactly?  CBS didn't have to wait for Paramount to make a new Trek movie if they felt the fanbase was enough to support yet another TV series.   

 

And for gods sake are we really going to ignore the fact that the new movies have made way more money than any of the TNG movies?  For Beyond, which had a weak US box office out of the new trilogy, it still blows past any of the TNG movies, which are as "classic trek" as you can get.   Hell why is it that every TNG movie, in succession, made less and less at the box office?  Where's this hardcore fans who crave classic trek flocking to the movie theater to make those a success?

 

If you look at the financial side of it, it's clear as day, the older trek fanbase was on the decline, they weren't supporting the movies or last TV series with their money or time, each movie was making less and less, and the last tv series had lower ratings than the one before it.   

 

Look, I'm a trek fan, I've been watching since TOS, do the newer movies have flaws, yes, does Discovery have flows, yes, but you know what?  So do the original movies and so do the older TV series.     There are some very terrible TNG episodes out there, and why is it that the best TNG plot everyone remembers are the Borg parts?  Why is the Borg specific first contact the best TNG movie out of all of them?  Maybe it's because there's more tension, action and emotion in those compared to all the other one off episodic parts?   

 

Meh, I've went off on a rant and I didn't intent to.  Oh well.

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

The “hardcore” fan base comes across as a bunch of entitled old nerds. Sorry, it may not be true but it’s how it comes across.

 

paramount introduced Trek as an accessible franchise into an era where sci-fi was no longer considered nerdy, and it did pretty well. The reason 4 has been put back onto the shelf is more to do with studio politics than anything else.

[FloatingFatMan]

49 minutes ago, Human.Online said:

The “hardcore” fan base comes across as a bunch of entitled old nerds. Sorry, it may not be true but it’s how it comes across.

 

paramount introduced Trek as an accessible franchise into an era where sci-fi was no longer considered nerdy, and it did pretty well. The reason 4 has been put back onto the shelf is more to do with studio politics than anything else.

No it's not. It's money, pure and simple.  The 2 leading actors wanted more money than the studio was able to pay, because the studio couldn't get the financial backing it needed after Beyond failed to make the money they needed it to make.

 

Studio politics were involved a little, but the main reason is money, pure and simple.

 

[FloatingFatMan]

2 hours ago, George P said:

Meh, I've went off on a rant and I didn't intent to.  Oh well.

That's OK. Have some FanTrek to make you smile.

 

 

[ToneKnee]

Anyone noticed how in season 2 they've started using some of the sounds from DS9, Voyager etc?  Touch sounds from Nemesis, Door chime from Voyager, the old Red Alert sound?

 

As soon as I heard those sounds, I was thrown back into the old Trek.

[Son_Of_Dad]

3 hours ago, Human.Online said:

The reason 4 has been put back onto the shelf is more to do with studio politics than anything else.

If the two actors they'd relied on for funding and poor return on the third movie are considered studio politics

[Son_Of_Dad]

4 hours ago, George P said:

And for gods sake are we really going to ignore the fact that the new movies have made way more money than any of the TNG movies?  For Beyond, which had a weak US box office out of the new trilogy, it still blows past any of the TNG movies, which are as "classic trek" as you can get.   Hell why is it that every TNG movie, in succession, made less and less at the box office?  Where's this hardcore fans who crave classic trek flocking to the movie theater to make those a success?

Are we really going to ignore the new movies had vastly increased budgets? First Contact made more than Generations and both of those movies had a world wide box office in excess of three times the production budget, none of the JJ movies did that well

[George P Global Moderator]

3 hours ago, Son_Of_Dad said:

Are we really going to ignore the new movies had vastly increased budgets? First Contact made more than Generations and both of those movies had a world wide box office in excess of three times the production budget, none of the JJ movies did that well

Lots of movies have increased in budget since the 90s.  First contact cost $45million to make, and made $146million world wide, that's not huge, even back then.  Star Trek 2009 made $385million world wide on a $150mil budget.  Did it cost more to make? Yes, did it make more money than all of first contact did? Yes.  Even if you adjust for ticket prices first contact still doesn't make as much.

 

Hell, Glass, which isn't even a scifi movie of the caliber of first contact cost $20million to make today, costs rise with time, who's to say making first contact today doesn't cost Paramount $100million in 2019?

 

[shockz]

15 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Some people are quick to dismiss hardcore fans, but remember this. Without us, there would have been no movies, no TNG, no DS9, No Voyager, no Enterprise and no Discovery.  CBS appear to be learning that if you ignore your hardcore fanbase in favour of the new generation of fans, you put yourself in peril.  Paramount failed to learn this, and the new movies are now dead.

What about hardcore fans that love discovery? 

[atcapistrano]

On 1/24/2019 at 6:26 AM, FloatingFatMan said:

For one, a drive that lets them travel instantly to anywhere...

how about inconsistencies in star trek novels where there was a supposed limit to max warp travel yet some authors have max warp at 5 others at 10 or more? (I am trying to fast read some star trek trade paperbacks to find exact 'max warp' )

[Son_Of_Dad]

1 hour ago, George P said:

who's to say making first contact today doesn't cost Paramount $100million in 2019?

 

And who's to say it wouldn't net them $300 million? Congrats on the pointless post

 

1 hour ago, shockz said:

What about hardcore fans that love discovery? 

CBS is no doubt very greatful for those 25 subscriptions

 

36 minutes ago, atcapistrano said:

how about inconsistencies in star trek novels where there was a supposed limit to max warp travel yet some authors have max warp at 5 others at 10 or more? (I am trying to fast read some star trek trade paperbacks to find exact 'max warp' )

The majority of Star Trek books are not canon

[George P Global Moderator]

2 hours ago, atcapistrano said:

how about inconsistencies in star trek novels where there was a supposed limit to max warp travel yet some authors have max warp at 5 others at 10 or more? (I am trying to fast read some star trek trade paperbacks to find exact 'max warp' )

Max warp is one of those things that always changes with newer shows.  Back in TOS it was different, then in TNG they changed it.  Now it's down to some "new way of measuring it from old to new that gives us different numbers.   As far as I know, at this point, traditional warp, as we know it, per voyager is 9.99.    Now I could be wrong but honestly I don't see what the big deal is with the spore drive idea, it's almost like having a controllable worm hole when you need it.   And as far as why it's never come up in past trek shows, well, season 1 explained how messing with it could break space/universe/multiverse.    

 

If anything I expect season 2 will only make that even more clear till they finally stop using it.   Either way, it's not like past series or books haven't messed with things and they've been messing with other forms of travel in trek forever.   Heck, you could always just have Q drop by, snap his fingers and fling the ship all the way to the delta quadrant in a matter of seconds, or in a flash.  

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

So that last episode was directed by Frakes... man you could tell.  He has a real way of lighting, he likes his angles.  I don't know if he is a "good" director, but I personally like his directing.  It threw me back to First Contact in ways - which was somewhat apt considering the plot.

[FloatingFatMan]

2 hours ago, Human.Online said:

So that last episode was directed by Frakes... man you could tell.  He has a real way of lighting, he likes his angles.  I don't know if he is a "good" director, but I personally like his directing.  It threw me back to First Contact in ways - which was somewhat apt considering the plot.

Frakes at least knows what Trek should be, and it absolutely showed in episode 2.  I think they need him directing more often.

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

1 hour ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Frakes at least knows what Trek should be, and it absolutely showed in episode 2.  I think they need him directing more often.

It felt like "old trek" in the "let's explore a moral issue" way yes.

[shockz]

 

10 hours ago, Son_Of_Dad said:

CBS is no doubt very greatful for those 25 subscriptions

It's more than that. In true nerd fashion, my job (IT/Software company, so plenty of Trekkies) has a Trekkie get together every week, usually about 25-30 people per week, all long time, avid fans, and I'd say most of them are enjoying Discovery as much as I am. Not all, but the whole only new fans premise and a handful of others being the only ones enjoying Discovery is total nonsense.

 

In an interesting parallel we've all noticed, the ones usually moaning about it are Trump supporters, upset about the "progressiveness" they imagine to be viewing... i.e color, female lead, gay cast/relationships... the irony being that these types of "boundary" pushing characters have always been a key part of Trek, and they aren't even in your face about it. One only need look at facebook comments on Star Trek pages, with a follow up of said commenters facebook profile to confirm this.

 

The other complaints seem to revolve around wishing boring, transparent plot lines typical of 80s/90s style television shows. The old cliche change is never easy shines true. Same complaints back in the 80s when TNG premiered. 90s Trek wouldn't survive on tv today, all access or not. The Orville is a prime example of that, with it not pulling in the viewership fox had hoped.

 

Discovery isn't going anywhere, isn't going to bow down to a vocal minority, and episode quality like New Eden aren't rare. You'd know that if you actually watched the series. It's done so well that CBS is going Trek crazy on ordering new series. Hardly a disaster like a few here make it out to be lol.

[FloatingFatMan]

3 hours ago, shockz said:

In an interesting parallel we've all noticed, the ones usually moaning about it are Trump supporters, upset about the "progressiveness" they imagine to be viewing... i.e color, female lead, gay cast/relationships... the irony being that these types of "boundary" pushing characters have always been a key part of Trek, and they aren't even in your face about it. One only need look at facebook comments on Star Trek pages, with a follow up of said commenters facebook profile to confirm this.

Sorry, but what an utter load of twaddle. I couldn't care less about the actress playing Bunham, other than her needing a few acting lessons so that her delivery is a bit less wooden.  My problem is her character's concept.  Shoehorning her into Spock's family doesn't work, is stupid, and completely unnecessary.  Also, the whole her starting the Klingon war was completely ridiculous.  No Starfleet officer of her rank would ever act that way unless they were a complete rogue.

 

Also, they ruined Klingons with that stupid redesign, and turned them into nothing more than space orcs.

 

One of the biggest issues the fans had though, wasn't all the bad stories and character designs. It was the paywall.  Forcing people to sign up to CBS All Access just so the fans to see some new Trek was sickening.  It made it clear the ONLY reason they were making it was to sell their crappy streaming service.

 

3 hours ago, shockz said:

 

The other complaints seem to revolve around wishing boring, transparent plot lines typical of 80s/90s style television shows. The old cliche change is never easy shines true. Same complaints back in the 80s when TNG premiered. 90s Trek wouldn't survive on tv today, all access or not. The Orville is a prime example of that, with it not pulling in the viewership fox had hoped.

 

Discovery isn't going anywhere, isn't going to bow down to a vocal minority, and episode quality like New Eden aren't rare. You'd know that if you actually watched the series. It's done so well that CBS is going Trek crazy on ordering new series. Hardly a disaster like a few here make it out to be lol.

I watched all of season 1 in the hopes it would improve; it didn't until the end.  The final episode where they hurriedly wrapped the Klingon rubbish up gave me enough hope to give season 2 a chance. So far, it's almost like a completely different show. Firing those season 1 show runners and sending the writers to Trek school were the right decisions. I hope it continues to improve, I really do.

 

[Son_Of_Dad]

16 hours ago, shockz said:

The Orville is a prime example of that, with it not pulling in the viewership fox had hoped.

Can share with us all the precise viewership for Discovery? That it is what CBS had hoped. Given Netflix lack of interest in "short treks" even as CBS were reducing the price says something about how it's been accepted

[shockz]

4 hours ago, Son_Of_Dad said:

Can share with us all the precise viewership for Discovery? That it is what CBS had hoped. Given Netflix lack of interest in "short treks" even as CBS were reducing the price says something about how it's been accepted

No, I can’t. But considering Orville is on the chopping block and cbs is expanding the trek universe...

 

CBS isn’t going to continue dropping millions of dollars to fund discovery not to mention spend millions and millions more on additional Trek unless the viewership is there, clearly discovery is panning out for them.

[Son_Of_Dad]

Just now, shockz said:

cbs is expanding the trek universe...

Possibly for a replacement series... it's fuzzy math if the numbers are revealed

[shockz]

2 minutes ago, Son_Of_Dad said:

Possibly for a replacement series... it's fuzzy math if the numbers are revealed

No lol

 

Picard series

Section 31 series

Animated series

 

All those are confirmed, and if discovery was that bad they wouldn’t of bothered with the section 31 show set in the same time and characters.

 

and if they truly were replacements then the show runners of discovery certainly wouldn’t be involved in any of them. They are.

[Dot Matrix]

On 1/27/2019 at 5:01 PM, ToneKnee said:

Anyone noticed how in season 2 they've started using some of the sounds from DS9, Voyager etc?  Touch sounds from Nemesis, Door chime from Voyager, the old Red Alert sound?

 

As soon as I heard those sounds, I was thrown back into the old Trek.

Yes, which is honestly, really annoying. The red alert klaxon is and fits the time period, but the sounds from Voyager just don't belong. While we're at it, why not just have Voyager on the show? Maybe Captain Janeway can come by and save the day? She and Pike can share a cup of coffee before Voyager flies off into parts unknown...

 

It's just as bad as that time in season 1 when a "Klingon D7" was coming by, but then a bad rip-off of a Wraith Hive Ship dropped out of warp.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Dot Matrix