techbeck Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said: Your cops pull the trigger to easily. You need to accept that and fix it. Even during the 70's they were never this trigger happy. Good example of labeling a whole group for the actions of a few. That is a big problem with this world and contributor for a lot of issues. And things are a lot different than 46 years ago. restroom and Nogib 2 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Just now, techbeck said: Good example of labeling a whole group for the actions of a few. You can thank your media for THAT perception. 300z 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 1 minute ago, FloatingFatMan said: Sure bad eggs and mistakes can happen, but why are a lot of those bad eggs still cops? That's a completely separate issue, and even with these "bad eggs" still being cops we're not seeing many repeat offenders. However, this does not make any case for groups like BLM nor that this happens "too often", which is a completely subjective and vague term. trag3dy and Nogib 2 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techbeck Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 1 minute ago, FloatingFatMan said: You can thank your media for THAT perception. And people who suck up what the media says. restroom 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trag3dy Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Just now, FloatingFatMan said: I'm happy to agree with you, and even said that these cases are the extreme and rare. But still, they seem to happen far too often. You keep saying "far too often" but I feel like you're not fully grasping the numbers that are involved for your statement to even be close to a reality. Remember you said our "police are trained to shoot first and not even try to calm things down", when that couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not saying there aren't overzealous police or ones who are just so stupid you question how they manage to get to be one in the first place but again, numbers just do not support your claim. Nogib 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theyarecomingforyou Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 2 hours ago, techbeck said: Good example of labeling a whole group for the actions of a few. That is a big problem with this world and contributor for a lot of issues. And things are a lot different than 46 years ago. It's not the actions of a few. Last year 1,146 people were killed by the police in the US; that compares to the 3 people who were killed in the UK. Factoring in population difference the UK's comparable rate is 15, versus the 1,146 it actually is in the US. That means the US rate of police killings is 7,690% higher than that of the UK. That's not a small difference we're talking about. That's more than 1,000 needless deaths per year. People criticise policing in the US because it's obscene. Now it's got to the extreme where police are arming robots with bombs to kill suspects. It's exactly that sort of abusive behaviour by the police that caused the sniper to target police in the first place. People need to come out en masse to oppose policing in the US, as it can't continue as it is. 300z 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 17 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said: It's not the actions of a few. Last year 1,146 people were killed by the police in the US; that compares to the 3 people who were killed in the UK. Factoring in population difference the UK's comparable rate is 15, versus the 1,146 it actually is in the US. That means the US rate of police killings is 7,690% higher than that of the UK. That's not a small difference we're talking about. That's more than 1,000 needless deaths per year. People criticise policing in the US because it's obscene. Now it's got to the extreme where police are arming robots with bombs to kill suspects. It's exactly that sort of abusive behaviour by the police that caused the sniper to target police in the first place. People need to come out en masse to oppose policing in the US, as it can't continue as it is. Yes, more people die by cop in the US but that's because 1) there are more cops 2) there are more people. The UK is also not bordered with crime ridden countries like the US (ie. Mexico). But no, lets not consider geography, population or culture in our statistics about these matters. Also, arming the robot with a bomb is no different than taking him down with a rifle. It's a distinction without a difference. trag3dy, restroom, Nogib and 1 other 4 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nekrosoft13 Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 (edited) 44 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said: It's not the actions of a few. Last year 1,146 people were killed by the police in the US; that compares to the 3 people who were killed in the UK. Factoring in population difference the UK's comparable rate is 15, versus the 1,146 it actually is in the US. That means the US rate of police killings is 7,690% higher than that of the UK. That's not a small difference we're talking about. That's more than 1,000 needless deaths per year. People criticise policing in the US because it's obscene. Now it's got to the extreme where police are arming robots with bombs to kill suspects. It's exactly that sort of abusive behaviour by the police that caused the sniper to target police in the first place. People need to come out en masse to oppose policing in the US, as it can't continue as it is. looking at the website you posted, and I see Pablo Medina, 41 Micah Johnson, 25 Larry Gordon, 44 right on the first page(and I'm sure there are much much more), its hard to feel bad when people like that also being used to inflate the "stats" This is just the first 3 rows, and we supposed to feel bad for them? I say is a good thing they are out of the gene-pool Authorities said the man broke into a home armed with a gun. He escaped the house through a window when police responded and was shot when he pointed his gun at officers, police said. Medina was suspected of killing his wife and her friend two days before he initiated a standoff with police inside a hotel, authorities said. Officers shot and killed Medina when he exited a closet with a gun pointed at them, according to police. Gordon, a pretrial inmate being held on multiple felony charges, managed to take a deputy's gun as the deputy prepared to escort him to a courtroom hearing, police said. Gordon shot and injured the deputy, killed two bailiffs and injured a woman, according to authorities. Police said officers killed Gordon as he attempted to take hostages. Brooks was reportedly naked and acting erratically while armed with multiple guns. He was firing into a street before he pointed his gun at responding officers, who shot and killed him, authorities said. Johnson, a suspect in a double homicide, led officers on a car chase after refusing to pull over for police, according to authorities. Police said he opened fire after stopping his car on a dead-end street and that officers from multiple agencies fired back. Johnson opened fire at an anti-violence protest in Dallas, killing five police officers and wounding seven more officers and two civilians, authorities said. The protest was organized in the wake of outcry over recent police killings of two black men. Police used a bomb-disposal robot to kill Johnson, officers said. During the negotiations, Johnson said he wanted to 'kill white people, especially white officers', according to the police chief. Family members called 911 after Fells reportedly shot and injured his girlfriend. Fells opened fire on and injured a responding police officer who shot back and killed him, according to authorities. Edited July 12, 2016 by nekrosoft13 psmoked and Emn1ty 2 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theyarecomingforyou Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 1 minute ago, Emn1ty said: Yes, more people die by cop in the US but that's because 1) there are more cops 2) there are more people. Did you even read what I posted? I specifically factored in population difference. 1 minute ago, Emn1ty said: The UK is also not bordered with crime ridden countries like the US (ie. Mexico). But no, lets not consider geography, population or culture in our statistics about these matters. The reason Mexico is crime-ridden is because of the United States' foreign policy. The War on Drugs resulted in a massive increase in crime, while weapons from the US flow freely across the border. But no, let's not hold the United States to account for its failed policies. 1 minute ago, Emn1ty said: Also, arming the robot with a bomb is no different than taking him down with a rifle. It's a distinction without a difference. The police conspired to kill him rather than attempt to arrest him. It's not like he was shot as he charged officers - they sent in a robot to execute him. Something like that would never be tolerated in the UK; the officers responsible would be charged with murder. Do you honestly think it's acceptable for the police to be using robots to blow up suspects? 300z 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theyarecomingforyou Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 1 minute ago, nekrosoft13 said: looking at the website you posted, and I see Pablo Medina, 41 Micah Johnson, 25 right on the first page(and I'm sure there are much much more), its hard to feel bad when people like that also being used to inflate the "stats" I'm not claiming they're all nice people, that would be ridiculous. However, the point remains that they should be apprehended alive and brought to trial rather than executed Judge Dredd style. The UK also has despicable people but they're apprehended alive. 300z 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisj1968 Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 On 7/10/2016 at 1:06 PM, Depicus said: Not my intention, just pointing out a few things. Remember without violent protests America would still be a British Colony but we were fighting for freedom from a tyrannical king.. NOT cops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Depicus Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 3 minutes ago, chrisj1968 said: but we were fighting for freedom from a tyrannical king.. NOT cops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dashel Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 ###### the tyrannical and systemic racism police protect and serve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gary7 Subscriber² Posted July 12, 2016 Subscriber² Share Posted July 12, 2016 9 minutes ago, Dashel said: ###### the tyrannical and systemic racism police protect and serve. Simply amazing that people can think like this. DConnell, psmoked and Nogib 3 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Raze Subscriber² Posted July 12, 2016 Subscriber² Share Posted July 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said: Did you even read what I posted? I specifically factored in population difference. The reason Mexico is crime-ridden is because of the United States' foreign policy. The War on Drugs resulted in a massive increase in crime, while weapons from the US flow freely across the border. But no, let's not hold the United States to account for its failed policies. The police conspired to kill him rather than attempt to arrest him. It's not like he was shot as he charged officers - they sent in a robot to execute him. Something like that would never be tolerated in the UK; the officers responsible would be charged with murder. Do you honestly think it's acceptable for the police to be using robots to blow up suspects? Time and again you show up in these threads to lecture and rant about how bad the US is and how great the UK is in comparison. You ignore others remarks and simply dismiss them wholesale. Your lack of understanding the differences between the two counties and the hyperbole used, reveals a bias that blinds you. The police in Dallas tried negotiating with Micah Johnson and based on their professional assessment of the situation, felt that he was not going to cooperate and he presented an extreme danger to the officers and to the public. You really have no idea what the situation was sitting behind a desk in England. Don't act as if you do. And your remarks about the US/Mexico situation also show the lack of knowledge about the relationship between the two nations. Large numbers of weapons/drugs make their way into the US, along with criminals/cartel members and the use of violence by these people is unlike anything you experience in the UK. Police officers in the US deal with a much more violent criminal environment than officers in the UK. Does that make the numbers of those killed by our law enforcement acceptable, no, but given the extreme situations/behavior faced it is going to happen, unfortunately. There are no easy, quick answers, but if you believe that nothing is being done, well, that would be very ignorant. Where I live, the various law enforcement agencies have been working jointly to improve community involvement, outreach, dialog and improvements in training. Officers and community members are forging alliances and educating each other. In my city, for example, there hasn't been a single shooting by an officer this year. It has been declining for the last 5 years and all due to the efforts of citizens and law enforcement. So please don't paint the law enforcement community with such broad strokes of negativity. Yes there is a great need for a vast overhaul of attitudes and actions, but it is happening. trag3dy, Emn1ty, DConnell and 2 others 5 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisj1968 Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 32 minutes ago, Depicus said: while we're playing video tennis.. Jim K 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim K Global Moderator Posted July 12, 2016 Global Moderator Share Posted July 12, 2016 45 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said: I'm not claiming they're all nice people, that would be ridiculous. However, the point remains that they should be apprehended alive and brought to trial rather than executed Judge Dredd style. The UK also has despicable people but they're apprehended alive. I know you are anti-cop ... which is fine. I agree that suspects should be apprehended and brought in alive ... however ... most of the times (in the case of cop shootings) ... the suspect waived that right by either 1) physically assaulting the cop 2) threatening the cop with a weapon or 3) made a quick gesture which the cop perceived as threatening (where a split second could mean life or death). You fail to realize that our bad guys are bad ... a cop should not have to sustain injury/death just because they are cops. Anyway, just because the Brits have a low cop/suspect death count ... doesn't mean that it would work here. I'd love (not really) to see how an unarmed police officer would last in a place like Chicago. Edit: 4) ...and I know that there are bad cops out there. Obviously when caught (and hopefully before) they should be stripped of their badge and if they have committed a crime ... they need to be tossed in prison. +Raze, chrisj1968, DConnell and 1 other 4 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisj1968 Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 13 minutes ago, Raze said: Time and again you show up in these threads to lecture and rant about how bad the US is and how great the UK is in comparison. You ignore others remarks and simply dismiss them wholesale. Your lack of understanding the differences between the two counties and the hyperbole used, reveals a bias that blinds you. The police in Dallas tried negotiating with Micah Johnson and based on their professional assessment of the situation, felt that he was not going to cooperate and he presented an extreme danger to the officers and to the public. You really have no idea what the situation was sitting behind a desk in England. Don't act as if you do. And your remarks about the US/Mexico situation also show the lack of knowledge about the relationship between the two nations. Large numbers of weapons/drugs make their way into the US, along with criminals/cartel members and the use of violence by these people is unlike anything you experience in the UK. Police officers in the US deal with a much more violent criminal environment than officers in the UK. Does that make the numbers of those killed by our law enforcement acceptable, no, but given the extreme situations/behavior faced it is going to happen, unfortunately. There are no easy, quick answers, but if you believe that nothing is being done, well, that would be very ignorant. Where I live, the various law enforcement agencies have been working jointly to improve community involvement, outreach, dialog and improvements in training. Officers and community members are forging alliances and educating each other. In my city, for example, there hasn't been a single shooting by an officer this year. It has been declining for the last 5 years and all due to the efforts of citizens and law enforcement. So please don't paint the law enforcement community with such broad strokes of negativity. Yes there is a great need for a vast overhaul of attitudes and actions, but it is happening. if I may be able to add, there are various LEO (Law Enforcement Officers).. City police, State, Highway patrol and County Sheriffs. Sheriffs are high in the authority chain as they are elected officials. DConnell 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theyarecomingforyou Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 35 minutes ago, Raze said: Time and again you show up in these threads to lecture and rant about how bad the US is and how great the UK is in comparison. You ignore others remarks and simply dismiss them wholesale. Your lack of understanding the differences between the two counties and the hyperbole used, reveals a bias that blinds you. It's not that the UK is good, it's that the US is so shockingly bad. I use the UK as an example because it's what I'm most familiar with but similar comparisons can be made with Norway (where police only fired two bullets for the entire year and nobody was killed), Finland (where police have killed only four people in twenty-five years) and Japan (where in 2014 only six people died as a result of firearms in the entire country, with none from police from what I have been able to find out). In fact I'm not aware of any developed country that has a worse police force. 35 minutes ago, Raze said: The police in Dallas tried negotiating with Micah Johnson and based on their professional assessment of the situation, felt that he was not going to cooperate and he presented an extreme danger to the officers and to the public. You really have no idea what the situation was sitting behind a desk in England. Don't act as if you do. Any rational person can see that strapping a bomb to a robot and using it to assassinate a suspect is NOT good policing. In any other country that wouldn't even be considered and there would be a massive backlash were it actually carried out. The officers responsible should be brought up on murder charges. Politicians should be rushing to criminalise such an abuse of power. Instead we see it's business as usual. 35 minutes ago, Raze said: And your remarks about the US/Mexico situation also show the lack of knowledge about the relationship between the two nations. Large numbers of weapons/drugs make their way into the US, along with criminals/cartel members and the use of violence by these people is unlike anything you experience in the UK. Police officers in the US deal with a much more violent criminal environment than officers in the UK. Does that make the numbers of those killed by our law enforcement acceptable, no, but given the extreme situations/behavior faced it is going to happen, unfortunately. The US has brought its violent climate upon itself by allowing people to buy firearms with ease, with every attempt to bring in sensible restrictions resisted. The rest of the developed world decided that was a ridiculous idea decades ago and don't suffer from the same problems. The majority of weapons seized by Mexican police originate from the United States. If the US hadn't pursued its failed War on Drugs then Mexico wouldn't be the failed state that it is. So yes, the US does face different problems but it brought those problems upon itself. 35 minutes ago, Raze said: There are no easy, quick answers, but if you believe that nothing is being done, well, that would be very ignorant. Where I live, the various law enforcement agencies have been working jointly to improve community involvement, outreach, dialog and improvements in training. Officers and community members are forging alliances and educating each other. In my city, for example, there hasn't been a single shooting by an officer this year. It has been declining for the last 5 years and all due to the efforts of citizens and law enforcement. So please don't paint the law enforcement community with such broad strokes of negativity. Yes there is a great need for a vast overhaul of attitudes and actions, but it is happening. What's being done isn't enough. Tinkering around the edges isn't going to address the problem. People in the US no longer have trust in police and without that they can't do their job effectively. When police kill someone unjustly they should be held to account and brought up on murder charges but that isn't happening. The police are above the law and that's extremely dangerous. 1 hour ago, jjkusaf said: I know you are anti-cop ... which is fine. I agree that suspects should be apprehended and brought in alive ... however ... most of the times (in the case of cop shootings) ... the suspect waived that right by either 1) physically assaulting the cop 2) threatening the cop with a weapon or 3) made a quick gesture which the cop perceived as threatening (where a split second could mean life or death). You fail to realize that our bad guys are bad ... a cop should not have to sustain injury/death just because they are cops. Anyway, just because the Brits have a low cop/suspect death count ... doesn't mean that it would work here. I'd love (not really) to see how an unarmed police officer would last in a place like Chicago. I'm not anti-police, I'm opposed to American policing. I fault the system rather than the individuals, though the culture is toxic to the point that it attracts the wrong sort of people. What I strongly disagree with you on is the idea that suspects 'wave their rights' by threatening officers. Police in other countries are also threatened with knives and firearms and aren't executed on the spot. We have seen countless examples where a non-lethal confrontation in the UK results in a lethal takedown in the US with extremely similar circumstances. It's not simply that the US is more violent, it's that American policing is inherently violent and there is little regard for human life. The mentality, like yours, is that if you threaten a police officer you forfeit your rights. I find that abhorrent. 300z 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim K Global Moderator Posted July 12, 2016 Global Moderator Share Posted July 12, 2016 11 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said: I'm not anti-police, I'm opposed to American policing. I fault the system rather than the individuals, though the culture is toxic to the point that it attracts the wrong sort of people. What I strongly disagree with you on is the idea that suspects 'wave their rights' by threatening officers. Police in other countries are also threatened with knives and firearms and aren't executed on the spot. We have seen countless examples where a non-lethal confrontation in the UK results in a lethal takedown in the US with extremely similar circumstances. It's not simply that the US is more violent, it's that American policing is inherently violent and there is little regard for human life. The mentality, like yours, is that if you threaten a police officer you forfeit your rights. I find that abhorrent. I do not care you find it abhorrent. If you physically attack a cop, point a gun (or any other lethal or perceived weapon) at a cop ... they have every right to defend themselves ... even if their self defense cost you your life. Plain and simple. Don't want to get shot ... be cool and do what the cop ask. Fight it later in a court of law. I'm opposed to the individuals who think it is wise in fighting the cops. That is the #1 reason people get shot. Do you really think an unarmed police officer would last long in Chicago? Would you be ok if a police officer was killed because they tried non-lethal methods to bring in a dangerous person so they could stand trial? This isn't other countries. DConnell, Nogib, restroom and 3 others 6 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrynalyne Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 10 minutes ago, jjkusaf said: I do not care you find it abhorrent. If you physically attack a cop, point a gun (or any other lethal or perceived weapon) at a cop ... they have every right to defend themselves ... even if their self defense cost you your life. Plain and simple. Don't want to get shot ... be cool and do what the cop ask. Fight it later in a court of law. I'm opposed to the individuals who think it is wise in fighting the cops. That is the #1 reason people get shot. Do you really think an unarmed police officer would last long in Chicago? Would you be ok if a police officer was killed because they tried non-lethal methods to bring in a dangerous person so they could stand trial? This isn't other countries. Good ol armchair politicians from other countries. +Raze, Jim K, DConnell and 1 other 4 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Raze Subscriber² Posted July 12, 2016 Subscriber² Share Posted July 12, 2016 19 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said: It's not that the UK is good, it's that the US is so shockingly bad. I use the UK as an example because it's what I'm most familiar with but similar comparisons can be made with Norway (where police only fired two bullets for the entire year and nobody was killed), Finland (where police have killed only four people in twenty-five years) and Japan (where in 2014 only six people died as a result of firearms in the entire country, with none from police from what I have been able to find out). In fact I'm not aware of any developed country that has a worse police force. Any rational person can see that strapping a bomb to a robot and using it to assassinate a suspect is NOT good policing. In any other country that wouldn't even be considered and there would be a massive backlash were it actually carried out. The officers responsible should be brought up on murder charges. Politicians should be rushing to criminalise such an abuse of power. Instead we see it's business as usual. The US has brought its violent climate upon itself by allowing people to buy firearms with ease, with every attempt to bring in sensible restrictions resisted. The rest of the developed world decided that was a ridiculous idea decades ago and don't suffer from the same problems. The majority of weapons seized by Mexican police originate from the United States. If the US hadn't pursued its failed War on Drugs then Mexico wouldn't be the failed state that it is. So yes, the US does face different problems but it brought those problems upon itself. What's being done isn't enough. Tinkering around the edges isn't going to address the problem. People in the US no longer have trust in police and without that they can't do their job effectively. When police kill someone unjustly they should be held to account and brought up on murder charges but that isn't happening. The police are above the law and that's extremely dangerous. I'm not anti-police, I'm opposed to American policing. I fault the system rather than the individuals, though the culture is toxic to the point that it attracts the wrong sort of people. What I strongly disagree with you on is the idea that suspects 'wave their rights' by threatening officers. Police in other countries are also threatened with knives and firearms and aren't executed on the spot. We have seen countless examples where a non-lethal confrontation in the UK results in a lethal takedown in the US with extremely similar circumstances. It's not simply that the US is more violent, it's that American policing is inherently violent and there is little regard for human life. The mentality, like yours, is that if you threaten a police officer you forfeit your rights. I find that abhorrent. Your responses are full of hyperbole and fail to acknowledge that there are changes occurring, in fact you are minimizing them. Perhaps it's because you simply do not know what you are talking about. Again the US is not other countries, but you unable or unwilling to understand that, a continuing display of either ignorance or arrogance or both. I did not suggest that the use of a bomb was rational, but there are times when you have to resort to an extreme act to deal with an uncompromising, extreme situation. Your one size fits all attitude doesn't work in reality. Your opinions of the US are well known on Neowin, it is useless to try and have a reasonable discussion, you always react with excessive rhetoric, and an unyielding black and white stance. trag3dy, psmoked, restroom and 4 others 7 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 34 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said: Any rational person can see that strapping a bomb to a robot and using it to assassinate a suspect is NOT good policing. In any other country that wouldn't even be considered and there would be a massive backlash were it actually carried out. The officers responsible should be brought up on murder charges. Politicians should be rushing to criminalise such an abuse of power. Instead we see it's business as usual. I like how you define this so that people who disagree with you are automatically irrational. I also like how using a bomb is somehow murder from a cop, when a gun wouldn't be. So you think that cops should never use a firearm? Even if it means costing them multiple casualties to bring someone in alive? A bunch of dead cops is worth it? Do you see cops as not human beings or something, that their right to life is somehow superseded by those who are not police? They negotiated with the guy for 3 hours, and got nowhere. What amount of time is reasonable to you? When would you deem it fair to end an assailant's life rather than continue throwing cannon fodder at them in the form of police? I really want to understand why you think a cop's life is worth less than the lives of people who are blatantly murdering other people. It's not as if there was any question whether or not he did what he was doing. DConnell, psmoked, restroom and 4 others 7 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techbeck Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 3 hours ago, theyarecomingforyou said: It's not the actions of a few. Compared to the amount of police, yes a few. And not all deaths are controversial either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techbeck Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 10 minutes ago, Emn1ty said: I like how you define this so that people who disagree with you are automatically irrational Is an argument ending statement and lots won't reply to that. So stop being irrational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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