At least 17 dead in Florida school shooting, law enforcement says

[FloatingFatMan]

4 hours ago, Rohdekill said:

A knife, gun, vehicle, bomb, or just about any object in the hands of a perfectly sane person makes the "what it is designed for" argument  meaningless and pointless.

What something is designed to do has zero influence if the person wielding the object has the intention to do harm.

 

Some deranged person wielding two kitchen knives (not designed for killing) could have inflicted the same amount of damage.

It's not the object used that is to blame, even if the object is more efficient/effective at generating damage.

 

Knives, guns and bombs are ALL primarily designed as weapons, no matter what other uses they are put to. A kitchen knife is still a knife, and knives were designed to kill something, end of story.  Vehicles are primarily designed as transportation devices.  They were designed to move people and property from place A to place B.  Stop comparing one to the other.

[Rippleman]

 

4 hours ago, Rohdekill said:

It's not the object used that is to blame, even if the object is more efficient/effective at generating damage.

 

No one is blaming the gun. Everyone is blaming the person with the gun. The gun is the enabler. Without it, I virtually guarantee he would have not killed 17 people. And like the others said, you CAN NOT compare a car with a gun. You make yourself look silly.

[FloatingFatMan]

6 minutes ago, Rippleman said:

 

No one is blaming the gun. Everyone is blaming the person with the gun. The gun is the enabler. Without it, I virtually guarantee he would have not killed 17 people. And like the others said, you CAN NOT compare a car with a gun. You make yourself look silly.

One of the few times I actually agree with you.

 

I don't really care that many Americans want to use guns. Whatever floats their boat etc. I just care about the incredibly dumb and irritating excuses and comparisons they use to justify their gun usage.

 

Time for them to grow up and accept that mass shootings are just a consequence of massive gun saturation combined with social injustices, real or imagined.

[BritBronco]

Quoting somebody else here, but it rings true.

 

My children's right to survive a day of school trumps any rights to own a gun, end of story!

[Dot Matrix]

22 hours ago, ThaCrip said:

 

It's better than banning guns outright like the democrats want to do. democrats are anti-second amendment even though they would never admit it.

######. The Democrats are NOT anti 2nd, and they DON'T want to ban guns. What they DO want though is smarter and more effective gun control.

[Rohdekill]

2 hours ago, Rippleman said:

 

No one is blaming the gun. Everyone is blaming the person with the gun. The gun is the enabler. Without it, I virtually guarantee he would have not killed 17 people. And like the others said, you CAN NOT compare a car with a gun. You make yourself look silly.

you just don't get it because you refuse to see that ANY object could become a deadly weapon if utilized in the correct way.  The person in the news plowing down pedestrians with their vehicle (take a pick at which article, cause there are plenty of them to choose from as well) is a mass-murderer just the same as these shootings.

 

 

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

 

Quote

The Missing Link

 

Consider the following history:

 

• Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold’s medical records have never been made available to the public.
• Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.
• Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.
• Chris Fetters, age 13, while taking Prozac, killed his favorite aunt.
• Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.
• Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.
• Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.
• Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.
• Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded.
• Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.
• TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his classmates.
• James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls and wounding seven other children and two teachers.
• Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania
• Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California
• Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.
• Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who, for no apparent motive, killed a woman.
• Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledgehammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic’s file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.
• Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially, it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.
• Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.
• Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.
• Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a ladder at the family’s home in July 2002.
• Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara’s parents said “…. the damn doctor wouldn’t take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil…”)
• Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002, (Gareth’s father could not accept his son’s death and killed himself.)
• Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family’s garage.
• Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt in his closet.
• Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.
• Woody __, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death, his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of
• Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.”
• Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazepine.
• Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax, and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.
• Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.
• Asa Coon, Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.
• Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.

 

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Quote

Florida School Shooter To Romantic Rival

 

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

 

Quote

 

"He Has Her Blood On His Hands" - Father Of Florida Shooting Victim Viciously Attacked Online For Supporting Trump

 

Make no mistake, the following tweets are representative of a large portion of the new left which openly hates all their political opposition to the point where they simply do not care if someone's daughter was literally just murdered.

 

 

[Rippleman]

1 hour ago, Rohdekill said:

you just don't get it because you refuse to see that ANY object could become a deadly weapon if utilized in the correct way.  The person in the news plowing down pedestrians with their vehicle (take a pick at which article, cause there are plenty of them to choose from as well) is a mass-murderer just the same as these shootings.

 

 

Then you are for the legalization of individuals wearing suicide vests? Packing anthrax? having person nuclear weapons in their house? Remember, it's not the item that kills people, its the person, so these are ok to have correct?

[DocM]

4 hours ago, exotoxic said:

You would get steam rolled.

That assumes US troops, most of which are reserves and members of the state National Guard units, would fire on a rebelling populace that includes family, friends etc.  And there's always what happens next if some do fire; will other reserves be revolted and switch sides?

 

As Jefferson and the others said and did, to be consistent with your ideals you need to try.  

[DevTech]

1 hour ago, SecretAgentMan said:

I know enough about firearms but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what is happening in our country.  We don't need anything more than handguns for home protection and shotguns or rifles for hunting.  No need for automatic or semi-automatic weaponry like the AR-15.

 

You always deflect or have an excuse for everything.

 

1 hour ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Who wants to bet he'll reply saying an AR15 IS a rifle for hunting?

 

Hunting what? People?   Why do people need to hunt anyway? Does it in some way validate your masculinity to go out and shoot animals to stick on your wall or for lunch?  If you're hungry, go to the goddam supermarket like everyone else does...  If you want an animals decapiated head on your wall, go see a shrink as you're obviously sick.

@DocMis providing research and investigation to this thread and many others and deserves respect. So it would be nice to avoid Ad Hominem comments.

 

I am sure that @DocM could provide a list of more deadly rifles that people could legally purchase and for people that want to go nut-case, there is an actual illegal market as well. Maybe @DocM might know what illegal firearms are reasonably available? 

 

So  there is nothing special about an AR-15. It is a rifle with a magazine for bullets which describes thousands of rifles. If you eliminate semi-auto, then you have some sort of cocking mechanism which is just about as fast to operate against a crowd of unarmed civilians.

 

The AR-15 has a black plastic "style" available that resembles a military weapon but really, you want to base a solution to mass shootings on the style and appearance of a particular weapon?

 

This is what a standard military weapon looks like:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_carbine#M4A1

 

This is what killed Bin Laden:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_HK416

 

These rifles do accurate "head shots" at 600 meters. If you apply neurons to the issue, there is nothing about an assault rifle other than a perhaps a ominous "look" to it that would give it any advantage in a crowd of unarmed people over a cheap handgun. The fact that handguns can be easily concealed should make them a vastly larger focus of any "gun control" approach to mass shootings.

 

[DocM]

50 minutes ago, DevTech said:

 

@DocM

I am sure that @DocM could provide a list of more deadly rifles that people could legally purchase and for people that want to go nut-case,

Ban an AR and they'll look at something like an extended mag pistol or the Kel-Tec KSG 24 shot pump shotgun. Pump shotguns can fire amazingly fast, and each shot can propel 8 to several hundred projectiles - or slugs & sabots which can go clean through a car. 

 

KSG

 

Quote

there is an actual illegal market as well. Maybe @DocM might know what illegal firearms are reasonably available? 

>

 

Most any firearm made is available on the street, including full auto AK/AR's & M4's, rocket propelled grenades, whatever. Even grenades, explosives etc.  In December  Detroit PD arrested a guy for selling live grenades.

 

http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/bond-denied-for-detroit-man-charged-with-selling-making-grenades

 

And this NJ man had a shop where he was making most everything including machine guns

 

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/11/15/russell-watt-weapons-arrest/

 

These are Brazilian homemade automatic weapons, which show up for sale on US streets,

 

 

Edited February 19, 2018 by DocM

[Andre S. Veteran]

Ah so it's mental health now. Obviously all other countries in the world do so well to treat and prevent mental health issues, this entirely explains why these kinds of mass shootings are basically unique to the United States. The gun shooting problem couldn't possibly be related to guns.

[DocM]

Guns are the car, the untreated crazies are the drunk at the wheel. 

[Andre S. Veteran]

2 minutes ago, DocM said:

Guns are the car, the untreated crazies are the drunk at the wheel. 

You think other countries don't have comparable mental health issues? They all have their crazies, they just don't easily get hold of assault rifles.

[Luc2k]

On 17/02/2018 at 4:52 PM, jnelsoninjax said:

T

Taken from: https://twitter.com/PiaGuerra/status/964239386131906561/photo/1

Feis was the coach who protected the students from the gunman and paid the ultimate price.

And the first comment is about the diversity of the drawn children..

On 18/02/2018 at 4:13 AM, DocM said:

 

Spoken like someone who knows zero about firearms or firearms death patterns.

 

1: of the 8,500 or so firearms murders each year only about 400 or so are by a rifle of any kind. Most are not by the use of a semi-auto AR, AK or whatever.

 

2: the shotguns you say are OK are actually far more lethal, especially when used against groups. A standard 12 gauge shotgun shell can launch up to 21 #4 buckshot, which are .240 caliber. More in a magnum. Use a slug (solid bullet) and one may go through several people before being stopped.

 

3: Handguns actually kill many more people.

 

4: 1994-2003 there was an assault weapons ban and its effect was spotty at best. In the study An Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban: Impacts on Gun Markets and Gun Violence, 1994-2003 it was found that shooters simply used larger magazines, or more of them,  in other weapons.

 

Extending, or making, a magazine is relatively  easy in pistols given basic metal shop skills.  

 

Example

 

 

Hopefully, there's no resident wannabe mass shooter or copycat dropping on these regular topics as you tend to offer precise advice on how one can become a more efficient shooter.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Upon reading up on it, there appears to be more than just guns at the scene of a LOT of the school shootings (including this one) , Psychiatric Drugs (Ritalin, Prozac, and Parkland being the most popular ones). 

 

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/28307-from-prozac-to-parkland-are-psychiatric-drugs-causing-mass-shootings

[DevTech]

1 hour ago, Andre S. said:

Ah so it's mental health now. Obviously all other countries in the world do so well to treat and prevent mental health issues, this entirely explains why these kinds of mass shootings are basically unique to the United States. The gun shooting problem couldn't possibly be related to guns.

 

1 hour ago, DocM said:

Guns are the car, the untreated crazies are the drunk at the wheel. 

Most western democracies have reasonably easy access to rifles for typical utility reasons.

 

A culture of gun collecting is unique to the U.S. but it is stupid reasoning to add in the number of firearms a single person owns, since he can only use one of them at a time. So the statistics that people poll out to find a correlation between number of guns and violence is useless until you re-purpose them into number of households that have one or more guns as a single count.

 

So all the major democracies have easy gun availability and have people with mental health issues. What is the real difference that people are not talking about?

 

Health care.

 

Outside the U.S. every country has FREE Universal Health Care where people can actually get TREATED for mental health issues.

 

The reason that "mental health" appears on the surface to be a tired old argument is that in the U.S. discussions about gun control that bring up "mental health" are only talking about Identifying Crazy People So You Can Lock Them Up, and not talking about early identification and healing them.

 

Treatment for people with mental health issues which would just happen naturally with Universal Health Care is NOT talked about since it would cost MONEY and not just be a regulation banning an AR-15 which costs nothing.

 

A teenager in Paris or London whose dad owns a legal hunting rifle simply has to grab the rifle, go to school, and do the same thing. It doesn't happen because of Universal Health Care.

 

 

 

[Rippleman]

2 hours ago, DocM said:

Guns are the car, the untreated crazies are the drunk at the wheel. 

take away the car. 

[DevTech]

3 minutes ago, Rippleman said:

take away the car. 

That's a good idea actually. If you took away everyone's cars the environment would be better off and you would save many more human lives than taking away guns.

 

Far more innocent children killed in car accidents every year than school shootings. 

 

Why are humans so illogical? Car Control is obviously far more important than Gun Control and you have hit upon a very important topic of how civilized countries should allocate money and effort to prevent human death and suffering.

 

- Cars

- The Common Flu Virus

- Medical Accidents

 

All of those kill far more people than guns. All of those are preventable with some attention and money.

 

Where is the attention and money best allocated?

 

 

[Rippleman]

4 hours ago, DevTech said:

That's a good idea actually. If you took away everyone's cars the environment would be better off and you would save many more human lives than taking away guns.

 

Far more innocent children killed in car accidents every year than school shootings. 

 

Why are humans so illogical? Car Control is obviously far more important than Gun Control and you have hit upon a very important topic of how civilized countries should allocate money and effort to prevent human death and suffering.

 

- Cars

- The Common Flu Virus

- Medical Accidents

 

All of those kill far more people than guns. All of those are preventable with some attention and money.

 

Where is the attention and money best allocated?

 

 

Don't be silly. You don't take away the car from everyone. Why not just NOT give cars to just anyone that wants to drive? 1) cars are not designed for the sole purpose of killing 2) cars require licensing and testing 3) cars require insurance and registration. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you guys WANT everyone to have guns? Because you have a passion for it. like a coke addicact who loves his coke, he knows its bad, he just doesn't want to admit there is a problem. 

 

Side Note: let's pretend for JUST a brief moment and take what you said into an actual real consideration... what does that have to do with guns (this is called deflecting) and how would have that prevented this tragedy of mass murder with a tool designed to kill things? Why can't a government do BOTH? Why are you so resistant to what has been proven to be a better system in ALL other countries?

 

Under your logic, if based on simply how many lives are lost, then I guess they should allow suicide vests, anthrax, and personal home sized nuclear devices since the rate of death has been VERY low right? Or can you admit that the low rate of death has nothing to do with the issue? Note that there are 300 gun accidents a day with 100 being fatal. This is a problem even if you don't want to admit it. 

 

Added: the cost of fixing the deaths from: 

- Cars

- The Common Flu Virus

- Medical Accidents

 

would cost in the 10's of trillions of $ while NOT giving guns to incompetent people is peanuts. If a person is responsible for all the costs to attention the privilege of owning a killing tool, the costs would be covered by fees. 

Edited February 19, 2018 by Rippleman

[P.M.K]

17 hours ago, SecretAgentMan said:

Well ya know them thar gun toters luv their guns!!!

 

 

That has to be PhotoShoped??

[FloatingFatMan]

1 hour ago, P.M.K said:

That has to be PhotoShoped??

Sadly, it's not...

[DeusProto]

On 2/15/2018 at 8:46 AM, shockz said:

Bullying is an entirely different world now. You can't escape it after leaving school... there's social media (pic/comment shaming on facebook, instagra, snapchat, etc...) texting, etc etc etc. Teachers can only go so far outside of school, parents probably don't know the extent of the bullying on social media, and if they do, other kids parents probably think they're an angel and kid can cover tracks well, either due to skill or parents ineptitude toward technology. These kids can be constantly barraged by their peers 24/7 now, adding into the fact that outside their peers, any one has a megaphone now and can harp on attributes these kids may have.

Yeah, I was relentlessly bullied in 'middle' school in 1997, so much so that I was pulled out of the school system and went the home school route for High School. And that was 1997, so this was before social media and the like. And though I had internet access at the time, nobody in the school had my AOL information or e-mail address so at least for me I was able to escape from Hell each time I came home. But every second on school property was a living Hell. I can't imagine how worse it is now because of social media - where there is no escape from Hell. They are made to feel like trash 24/7/365 by their bullies.

 

IMO, there should be a zero tolerance policy for bullying. Expulsion from the entire public school system if it is proven that you relentlessly bullied another student. 

 

I was extremely unhappy the entire time from K to 6th grade, the bullying was relentless. The first time I was happy since before Kindergarten was when I was home schooled. No more contact in the flesh with craven creatures who get off on inflicting suffering on others. I doubt I would've survived freshman year had I gone on to a public high school.

[techbeck]

3 hours ago, P.M.K said:

That has to be PhotoShoped??

Nope.  And as long as they are responsible, I do not see a problem.  Open carry is allowed and these shootings are done by cowards who hide their weapons until the time when they way to inflict damage.  Not the gun you see that you have to worry about.