Tesla Cybertruck

[+Warwagon MVC]

On 05/06/2024 at 12:40, wakjak said:

Good lord... get this car off the roads.

As others have said, and I see it after slowing the video down, the start of the turn was instant, but the lag was the time it took the tire to finish turning after he was all the way over. I wonder if it's more responsive while driving than just moving a stationary tire.

[DeathLace]

On 05/06/2024 at 15:33, Warwagon said:

As others have said, and I see it after slowing the video down, the start of the turn was instant, but the lag was the time it took the tire to finish turning after he was all the way over. I wonder if it's more responsive while driving than just moving a stationary tire.

Agreed, it definitely starts the turn instantly. It's almost like there's a max speed the tire wheel will actually turn, and he's turning the steering wheel faster than that max.

[+Raze Subscriber²]

On 05/06/2024 at 12:40, wakjak said:

Good lord... get this car off the roads.

 

This is a normal feature.  It is called Steering Hesitation Input Technology, and it prevents sudden or abrupt changes in direction which can result in a roll-over.  It is designed to save lives.  Tesla works very hard to ensure the safety of owners of The Cybertruck, we want them to feel confident that we do care.

Really.

[+Edouard Subscriber²]

This must make Elon's head explode.

[+primortal Subscriber²]

[DocM]

On 05/06/2024 at 15:50, Raze said:

 

This is a normal feature.  It is called Steering Hesitation Input Technology, and it prevents sudden or abrupt changes in direction which can result in a roll-over.  It is designed to save lives.  Tesla works very hard to ensure the safety of owners of The Cybertruck, we want them to feel confident that we do care.

Really.

 

Tesla is not the only one introducing Steer by Wire, Toyota, Lexus, Geely, Nissan, and Infinity are  examples, so expect to see more of it. Besides making it easier to build some conventional and electric vehicles, Steer by Wire eliminates the steering  column entirely, so much safer in collisions. Part & parcel of Steer by Wire is  variable ratio steering, so when you steer quick there is a ramp, an acceleration curve, which in part causes the lag you perceive. Tire flex is also an issue.

Back in the 1900s we would get crash victims impaled on a steering column - it sticking out of their chest and back, the patient laying on their side. It'd  been cut off with a torch to bring them in intact (pulling it out would increase the hemorrhaging). Many fatalities. Some shorter people got it in the head.

You should be glad you've never seen these victims.

This was somewhat mitigated by the requiring of collapsing steering columns in the late 1960s, but this took decades to work its way through the US fleet. There are still some solid column vehicles out there. 

Most of the time the collapsing columns work. Every now and then they don't or not well enough, so ERs still get thoracic trauma. 

[adrynalyne]

On 06/06/2024 at 20:36, DocM said:

 

Tesla is not the only one introducing Steer by Wire, Toyota, Lexus, Geely, Nissan, and Infinity are  examples, so expect to see more of it. Besides making it easier to build some conventional and electric vehicles, Steer by Wire eliminates the steering  column entirely, so much safer in collisions. Part & parcel of Steer by Wire is  variable ratio steering, so when you steer quick there is a ramp, an acceleration curve, which in part causes the lag you perceive. Tire flex is also an issue.

Back in the 1900s we would get crash victims impaled on a steering column - it sticking out of their chest and back, the patient laying on their side. It'd  been cut off with a torch to bring them in intact (pulling it out would increase the hemorrhaging). Many fatalities. Some shorter people got it in the head.

You should be glad you've never seen these victims.

This was somewhat mitigated by the requiring of collapsing steering columns in the late 1960s, but this took decades to work its way through the US fleet. There are still some solid column vehicles out there. 

Most of the time the collapsing columns work. Every now and then they don't or not well enough, so ERs still get thoracic trauma. 

The point isn’t steer by wire existing, it’s that Tesla’s implementation has visible and perceivable delay. 

[DocM]

On 06/06/2024 at 23:48, adrynalyne said:

The point isn’t steer by wire existing, it’s that Tesla’s implementation has visible and perceivable delay. 

 

Sitting still in a parking lot. 

NHTSA has been pushing by wire systems (steering, brakes etc), so have other groups, so it's not like we can escape them. If anything they need to adjust the feedback curve, which is an OTA update. Welcome to software defined cars.

[adrynalyne]

On 06/06/2024 at 21:50, DocM said:

 

Sitting still in a parking lot. 

NHTSA has been pushing by wire systems (steering, brakes etc), so have other groups, so it's not like we can escape them. If anything they need to adjust the feedback curve, which is an OTA update. Welcome to software defined cars.

Yeah, and?

[DocM]

On 07/06/2024 at 01:27, adrynalyne said:

Yeah, and?

 

More friction so you get more sidewall flex, extra points if the tires are are warm or hot. Still, any electric steering requires calibration. Expect OTA's

[adrynalyne]

On 06/06/2024 at 22:48, DocM said:

 

More friction so you get more sidewall flex, extra points if the tires are are warm or hot. Still, any electric steering requires calibration. Expect OTA's

The only meaningful thing you said there was this. Electronics don’t give two ##### whether tires are warm, hot, or if there is friction. That would only make sense if there was trouble moving them. This was clearly latency. 

[+primortal Subscriber²]

On 07/06/2024 at 00:50, DocM said:

 

Sitting still in a parking lot. 

NHTSA has been pushing by wire systems (steering, brakes etc), so have other groups, so it's not like we can escape them. If anything they need to adjust the feedback curve, which is an OTA update. Welcome to software defined cars.

Waiting for the day when an update pushed to a car and bricks it.

[DocM]

On 07/06/2024 at 09:02, primortal said:

Waiting for the day when an update pushed to a car and bricks it.

It's already happened, mostly with makers which are new to OTA. Lucid Air and Rivian had buggy updates, then one cause problems with the Ford Mustang Mach E. 

GMs software problems are legendary, causing them to recall several vehicles & types and open a new software center in Silly Valley. Blazer, pickups, electric vehicles,...clusterfrack. They ended up canceling the very popular Bolt and Bolt CUV because of battery and software issues. Bolt CUV comes back after fixes in 2026.

[DocM]

On 07/06/2024 at 02:11, adrynalyne said:

The only meaningful thing you said there was this. Electronics don’t give two ##### whether tires are warm, hot, or if there is friction. That would only make sense if there was trouble moving them. This was clearly latency. 

 

You're underestimating the impact of sidewall flex in perceived latency, emphasis on perceived. 

Edited June 7, 2024 by DocM

[adrynalyne]

On 07/06/2024 at 08:29, DocM said:

 

You're underestimating the impact of sidewall flex in perceived latency.

💩

[DocM]

On 07/06/2024 at 11:32, adrynalyne said:

💩

 

Let me put it in simple terms; your assumption is that any visually perceived lag is going to slow response, correct? This is where we run into perception vs reality. The real measure of "lag" is how long it takes to go lock to lock - full right to full left.

There is also that the entire video is not being posted by many sites, people are trimming it to suit their meme biases.

F-150 Lightning needs >1.5s

Cybertruck needs 0.67s

Src: Auto Revolution

Could Tesla mitigate this by adjusting the force feedback? Sure, as long as you understand that it's only addressing your perception not the reality of how fast the steering reacts.

Auto Revolution quote,

"Others pointed to the second part of the video, which shows a Ford F-150 Lightning for comparison. Although the Ford pickup doesn't appear to have steering lag, it's obviously slower than the Cybertruck. Specifically, the F-150 Lightning needs more than a second and a half for a lock-to-lock maneuver. Despite the lag, the Cybertruck driver needs only 0.67 seconds for the same maneuver.

Basically, the Cybertruck's steer-by-wire system allows the driver to turn the steering wheel instantaneous from left to right and vice versa. It's faster than the steering actuators can react, which is what you actually see in the video. Turn the steering wheel slower, and there's no perceptible lag, and the Cybertruck will still react faster than any other vehicle to the steering inputs. "

[+Raze Subscriber²]

On 06/06/2024 at 22:36, DocM said:

 

Tesla is not the only one introducing Steer by Wire, Toyota, Lexus, Geely, Nissan, and Infinity are  examples, so expect to see more of it. Besides making it easier to build some conventional and electric vehicles, Steer by Wire eliminates the steering  column entirely, so much safer in collisions. Part & parcel of Steer by Wire is  variable ratio steering, so when you steer quick there is a ramp, an acceleration curve, which in part causes the lag you perceive. Tire flex is also an issue.

Back in the 1900s we would get crash victims impaled on a steering column - it sticking out of their chest and back, the patient laying on their side. It'd  been cut off with a torch to bring them in intact (pulling it out would increase the hemorrhaging). Many fatalities. Some shorter people got it in the head.

You should be glad you've never seen these victims.

This was somewhat mitigated by the requiring of collapsing steering columns in the late 1960s, but this took decades to work its way through the US fleet. There are still some solid column vehicles out there. 

Most of the time the collapsing columns work. Every now and then they don't or not well enough, so ERs still get thoracic trauma. 

Good gosh you're desire to pontificate is over-the-top, ad nauseum.

@DocM, at one time I truly enjoyed your posts.  Your responses were intelligent, well written, insightful and, at times, humorous and witty.  Sadly, you have become extreme in your views and unreasonable with your responses.  Even at times being condescending and pedantic.

I don't dislike you, DocM, I have been losing respect for you though and that saddens me.

 

[DocM]

On 07/06/2024 at 19:03, Raze said:

Good gosh you're desire to pontificate is over-the-top, ad nauseum.

@DocM, at one time I truly enjoyed your posts.  Your responses were intelligent, well written, insightful and, at times, humorous and witty.  Sadly, you have become extreme in your views and unreasonable with your responses.  Even at times being condescending and pedantic.

I don't dislike you, DocM, I have been losing respect for you though and that saddens me.

 

All of that because I explained why I think it's a good idea to go with steer by wire? Just trying to add context.

You might also consider some of my harshness is a reaction to other's ad homs & insults. I don't respond well to those, and try to keep it restrained, but my fuse is not infinitely long.

[+Raze Subscriber²]

On 07/06/2024 at 18:12, DocM said:

 

All of that because I explained why I think it's a good idea to go with steer by wire? Just trying to add context.

You might also consider some of my harshness is a reaction to other's ad homs & insults. I don't respond well to those, and try to keep it restrained, but my fuse is not infinitely long.

@DocM, yes, all that because my post was meant to be somewhat humorous, maybe a bit lame, but lighthearted none-the-less.  Any additional context was unnecessary.

And I agree you do catch a lot of flak and many times it is over-the-top and underserved, but there are times when it is to be expected (but not welcomed) because of how you respond and what you say.

Still when you are posting factual information, I welcome it and appreciate the time and effort you put in, thank-you.

 

[FloatingFatMan]

On 07/06/2024 at 18:43, DocM said:

F-150 Lightning needs >1.5s

Cybertruck needs 0.67s

Src: Auto Revolution

Could Tesla mitigate this by adjusting the force feedback? Sure, as long as you understand that it's only addressing your perception not the reality of how fast the steering reacts.

OK, so what's the lag compared with mechanically linked steering?

Note: Anything slower than mechanical linkage is dangerous and unacceptable, ESPECIALLY if there's a chance it can be bricked by OTA updated...  If you can demonstrate that steer by wire is no slower then mechanical then you'd have a point, otherwise you're just arguing in favour on an unsafe system.

 

 

Edited June 11, 2024 by FloatingFatMan

[DocM]

On 11/06/2024 at 07:11, FloatingFatMan said:

OK, so what's the lag compared with mechanically linked steering?

 

A tight mechanical steering will always have less lag. Very few people still make it. See below.

 

On 11/06/2024 at 07:11, FloatingFatMan said:

Note: Anything slower than mechanical linkage is dangerous and unacceptable, ESPECIALLY if there's a chance it can be bricked by OTA updated...  If you can demonstrate that steer by wire is no slower then mechanical then you'd have a point, otherwise you're just arguing in favour on an unsafe system.

 

You mean non-power steering? I don't think you can get that on anything except a golf cart and some very small cars and in India. Link...

OTOH, many cars up to mid size have switched from traditional hydraulic power steering to Electric Power Steering Column (EPSc). This is a chip shot away from drive by wire, software defined.

Braking-by-wire is already here, common in hybrids and EVs most manufacturers. And spreading.

There really is no escaping (function)-by-wire, and the speed difference between CT and the more traditional F-150 Lightning shows that CTs response is faster regardless of visual appearance.

Edited June 11, 2024 by DocM

[FloatingFatMan]

On 11/06/2024 at 16:22, DocM said:

 

A tight mechanically won't steering will always have less lag. Very few people still make it. See below.

 

 

You mean non-power steering? I don't think you can get that on anything except a golf cart and some very small cars and in India. Link...

OTOH, many cars up to mid size have switched from traditional hydraulic power steering to Electric Power Steering Column (EPSc). This is a chip shot away from drive by wire, software defined.

Braking-by-wire is already here, common in hybrids and EVs most manufacturers. And spreading.

There really is no escaping (function)-by-wire, and the speed difference between CT and the more traditional F-150 Lightning shows that CTs response is faster regardless of visual appearance.

Power steering is still mechanically connected, it's just a simple hydraulic assist that, if it fails, doesn't prevent you steering the car.

[DocM]

On 05/06/2024 at 15:41, DeathLace said:

Agreed, it definitely starts the turn instantly. It's almost like there's a max speed the tire wheel will actually turn, and he's turning the steering wheel faster than that max.

And if you look very carefully you will see the sidewall of the tire flex, so the center of the rim will arrive at full lock before the tread of the tire. 

[+primortal Subscriber²]

 

[adrynalyne]

On 14/06/2024 at 09:45, primortal said:

 

I’d take a Delorean over one.