Tesla Cybertruck

[Circaflex]

Seen these on the roads multiple times where I live and they are hideous. 

[+primortal Subscriber²]

 

[+virtorio MVC]

On 06/03/2024 at 05:26, primortal said:

 

I guess they can go off-road after all.

[FloatingFatMan]

On 05/03/2024 at 19:10, virtorio said:

I guess they can go off-road after all.

Once. 

 

[Matthew S.]

On 05/03/2024 at 10:22, Circaflex said:

Seen these on the roads multiple times where I live and they are hideous. 

They look even worse in person don't they?


 

[FloatingFatMan]

On 07/03/2024 at 16:57, Matthew S. said:

They look even worse in person don't they?


 

Sooner or later a pedestrian is going to meet one of those death machines head first, and then hopefully they'll be banned for the ridiculous things they are...  Not that that will help the pedestrian...  

[JayZJay]

I hate to tell you people, ICE vehicles are going to go away, at least largely as far as new sales.  The timing might vary.  And do not buy any nonsense about 2050 or anything like that.  It will be happening way before that.  We will continue to see a lot of change even by 2030.  There are plenty of issues with EVs, electrical infrastructure being one of them.  Full autonomous / self-driving might get banned temporarily or be slow to pass into law in many jurisdictions because it isn't ready yet and does need to be vetted thoroughly, but you guys are pipe-dreaming to think that EVs in general, even hybrids, that are employing technologies like Tesla are going away or will be banned.  It isn't going to happen.  Volkswagon, Toyota, Ford, GM, and the Korean and huge Chinese automakers are following Tesla's lead in many of the manufacturing breakthroughs and moves Tesla has made.  They will follow Tesla in moving to 48V due to the increase in efficiency, reduction in wiring weight, and more.  Many of the manufacturers are already employing or moving to copy Tesla in using large casts (or even megacasts) for the front or rear structures of the vehicles to eliminate countless components needing to be welded/joined together.

It's okay to dislike Musk, dislike Tesla, or hate the look of the Cybertruck, but despite the polarizing look of the Cybertruck, it is employing technology and manufacturing methods that will continue to impact the industry positively.  Some of that technology (drive-by-wire, for example) does need to be proven more over time and I think concerns about it are warranted to some degree.  And to be clear, I don't personally love the Cybertruck look.  I don't hate it, but I don't love it.  I would rather have the edges and corners rounded just a bit (softened) and I would certainly rather have a nice clear coat or some color paint options to go on top of the stainless steel (assuming they could get it to bond properly and hold).

Those I know here in Georgia in "Confederate" country are buying Cybertrucks.  Some in parts of Texas and Charlotte (NASCAR guys) like Cybertruck.  Some people hate it and think it is ugly.

Here is one perspective:
 

 

[adrynalyne]

On 07/03/2024 at 13:35, JayZJay said:

I hate to tell you people, ICE vehicles are going to go away, at least largely as far as new sales.  The timing might vary.  And do not buy any nonsense about 2050 or anything like that.  It will be happening way before that.  We will continue to see a lot of change even by 2030.  There are plenty of issues with EVs, electrical infrastructure being one of them.  Full autonomous / self-driving might get banned temporarily or be slow to pass into law in many jurisdictions because it isn't ready yet and does need to be vetted thoroughly, but you guys are pipe-dreaming to think that EVs in general, even hybrids, that are employing technologies like Tesla are going away or will be banned.  It isn't going to happen.  Volkswagon, Toyota, Ford, GM, and the Korean and huge Chinese automakers are following Tesla's lead in many of the manufacturing breakthroughs and moves Tesla has made.  They will follow Tesla in moving to 48V due to the increase in efficiency, reduction in wiring weight, and more.  Many of the manufacturers are already employing or moving to copy Tesla in using large casts (or even megacasts) for the front or rear structures of the vehicles to eliminate countless components needing to be welded/joined together.

It's okay to dislike Musk, dislike Tesla, or hate the look of the Cybertruck, but despite the polarizing look of the Cybertruck, it is employing technology and manufacturing methods that will continue to impact the industry positively.  Some of that technology (drive-by-wire, for example) does need to be proven more over time and I think concerns about it are warranted to some degree.  And to be clear, I don't personally love the Cybertruck look.  I don't hate it, but I don't love it.  I would rather have the edges and corners rounded just a bit (softened) and I would certainly rather have a nice clear coat or some color paint options to go on top of the stainless steel (assuming they could get it to bond properly and hold).

Those I know here in Georgia in "Confederate" country are buying Cybertrucks.  Some in parts of Texas and Charlotte (NASCAR guys) like Cybertruck.  Some people hate it and think it is ugly.

Here is one perspective:
 

 

EV sales are actually in a slump. Manufacturers can’t even get the costs down to not sell them at a loss and once the battery packs die, and they will, the vehicle is a complete loss because the cost to replace them is often more than the vehicle’s worth at that point.

https://money.com/why-americans-not-buying-electric-cars/?xid=nasdaq&utm_source=nasdaq&utm_medium=rss_synd

 

[DocM]

On 07/03/2024 at 15:39, adrynalyne said:

EV sales are actually in a slump. Manufacturers can’t even get the costs down to not sell them at a loss and once the battery packs die, and they will, the vehicle is a complete loss because the cost to replace them is often more than the vehicle’s worth at that point.

https://money.com/why-americans-not-buying-electric-cars/?xid=nasdaq&utm_source=nasdaq&utm_medium=rss_synd

 

What's actually down is the rate of increase in adoption, 2023 seeing a ~29% increase in spite of all the headlines. 

As far as Tesla goes, they are the largest part of the US EV market at 55% in 2023. Their total sales in 2022 were 1.3 million, in 2023 they sold 1.82 million, and are projecting about 2.2 to 2.3 million for 2024. They have huge gross margins per vehicle, allowing them to cut prices and still make a profit. It also lets Tesla spend more on R&D per vehicle than  other automakers.

Most of the rest of the industry is having more trouble because they did not take advantage of Tesla sharing intellectual property, which they made public in 2014. This makes their cars harder and more expensive to produce, and heavier so less range & efficiency. 

Meanwhile, BYD and Hyundai were paying attention and they are producing good electric vehicles got a good price.

While they were working on Cybertruck Tesla generated a "how to do 48 volt systems" white paper and sent it to every other automaker. If they are smart they will make the change. It reduces the weight of the vehicle, thereby extending the range.

 

[DocM]

On 07/03/2024 at 13:04, FloatingFatMan said:

Sooner or later a pedestrian is going to meet one of those death machines head first, and then hopefully they'll be banned for the ridiculous things they are...  Not that that will help the pedestrian...  

I got news for you bud, if you get hit by a Ford, RAM, or GMC light truck you'll be just as flat. Americans bought 12.3 million light trucks last year, making them the most popular vehicle in the US. Go to a parking lot and it's a sea of trucks and SUVs.

Edited March 7, 2024 by DocM

[FloatingFatMan]

On 07/03/2024 at 22:26, DocM said:

I got news for you bud, if you get hit by a Ford, RAM, or GMC light truck you'll be just as flat. Americans bought 12.3 million light trucks last year, aking them the most popular vehicle in the US. Go to a parking lot in Michigan, and it's a sea of trucks and SUVs.

You seem to have some kind of insane fascination with vehicles capable of crushing pedestrians.  That ain't healthy, "bud"...  

[DocM]

On 07/03/2024 at 17:31, FloatingFatMan said:

You seem to have some kind of insane fascination with vehicles capable of crushing pedestrians.  That ain't healthy, "bud"...  

People buy vehicles like this for a couple of reasons, one of them is they can haul a lot of stuff and they're durable. A high ground clearance is also important in places where you get a ton of snow, and you are less likely to disappear into a sinkhole  (the climate and road salt destroy Michigan roads).

[adrynalyne]

On 07/03/2024 at 15:18, DocM said:

What's actually down is the rate of increase in adoption, 2023 seeing a ~29% increase in spite of all the headlines. 

As far as Tesla goes, they are the largest part of the US EV market at 55% in 2023. Their total sales in 2022 were 1.3 million, in 2023 they sold 1.82 million, and are projecting about 2.2 to 2.3 million for 2024. They have huge gross margins per vehicle, allowing them to cut prices and still make a profit. It also lets Tesla spend more on R&D per vehicle than  other automakers.

Most of the rest of the industry is having more trouble because they did not take advantage of Tesla sharing intellectual property, which they made public in 2014. This makes their cars harder and more expensive to produce, and heavier so less range & efficiency. 

Meanwhile, BYD and Hyundai were paying attention and they are producing good electric vehicles got a good price.

While they were working on Cybertruck Tesla generated a "how to do 48 volt systems" white paper and sent it to every other automaker. If they are smart they will make the change. It reduces the weight of the vehicle, thereby extending the range.

 

If the rate of increase of adoption is down, then EV sales are in a slump like I said. 

[+Warwagon MVC]

My GF who is currently in Las Vegas, said she saw one and sent me photos She responded with "Pretty Cool"

[DocM]

On 07/03/2024 at 18:54, adrynalyne said:

If the rate of increase of adoption is down, then EV sales are in a slump like I said. 

The point is that there is still an increase. For the last few years it's been irregular, depending a lot on the state of the economy. 

One thing all automakers have been looking at is the Feb 7 report by The Conference Board projecting an economic slowdown in the second half of 2024 and first half of 2025. This is why you will be seeing most major vehicle releases coming in mid 2025, and delayed openings of new battery factories.  This includes the redone Chevy Bolt SUV, Tesla's new "Model 2' (placeholder name) inexpensive compact and Roadster, among others. It's also why Tesla delayed groundbreaking on there Monterrey, Mexico factory

 

[adrynalyne]

On 07/03/2024 at 21:52, DocM said:

The point is that there is still an increase. For the last few years it's been irregular, depending a lot on the state of the economy. 

One thing all automakers have been looking at is the Feb 7 report by The Conference Board projecting an economic slowdown in the second half of 2024 and first half of 2025. This is why you will be seeing most major vehicle releases coming in mid 2025, and delayed openings of new battery factories.  This includes the redone Chevy Bolt SUV, Tesla's new "Model 2' (placeholder name) inexpensive compact and Roadster, among others. It's also why Tesla delayed groundbreaking on there Monterrey, Mexico factory

 

You are just arguing with me for the sake of arguing. A slump means sales have dropped off. A slowness on adoption means sales have dropped off.

There is no point here other than you agreeing with the point I made, and wanting to a argue by saying the same thing with more words.

[JayZJay]

@adrynalyne I don't think @DocM is doing that.  Yes, sales have slowed in that the rate of sales increase has gone down.  You guys are (or seem to be) bent on being negative and not very objective.  @DocM, like myself and maybe @Warwagon, are more pro-Tesla, but certainly not bent on being anti-Tesla.  I'm not sitting here saying everything Tesla is doing is great, but I'm not going to "throw the baby out with the bath water" either, which it seems is exactly what many here do.

Let's talk about Tesla in particular, not EVs in general.

You said "Manufacturers can’t even get the costs down to not sell them at a loss and once the battery packs die, and they will, the vehicle is a complete loss because the cost to replace them is often more than the vehicle’s worth at that point."

There is a big difference between most manufacturers and Tesla (as Doc has shared plenty about already).  Tesla is not selling at a loss and Tesla battery packs should last at least 300,000 miles, though Tesla believes closer to 1 million miles is likely.  But, even if the battery pack only lasted 300,000 miles or so, that car would last 15 years if driving 20,000 miles per year.  Obviously, if one only drives 10,000 miles per year, you get 30 years.  What if one is really good about keeping their battery in the 20-80% charge range and they get 400-500,000 miles out of the battery pack?  The body is probably the problem in that case.

As Munro & Associates (https://leandesign.com) have thoroughly discussed for the past few years, most of the mainstream auto industry is chasing Tesla in many areas.  Tesla wasn't bogged down with an auto industry past and they haven't been afraid to rock the boat if there was a better way to do things. Munro tears down and closely analyzes much of what all the players are doing and they seem to be more of the opinion that much of the auto industry is scrambling and struggling to stay with Tesla since Tesla is nimble and innovates and tweaks constantly to fix problems or make improvements.

[+Warwagon MVC]

On 08/03/2024 at 09:22, JayZJay said:

 like myself and maybe @Warwagon, are more pro-Tesla,

I always make the disclaimer that I own Tesla stock 😊 .. in it for the long hall 30+ years

This is also why the suing of Musk over his multi-billion pay package bugs me. It was voted on by shareholders and he only got that great multi-billion pay package if the stock did well. While the person who sued him did own a small number of Tesla shares, the majority of the people who are complaining about this probably own no Tesla shares at all.

[JayZJay]

On 08/03/2024 at 12:10, Warwagon said:

I always make the disclaimer that I own Tesla stock 😊 .. in it for the long hall 30+ years

Thank you for the reminder.

[DocM]

On 08/03/2024 at 09:39, adrynalyne said:

You are just arguing with me for the sake of arguing. A slump means sales have dropped off. A slowness on adoption means sales have dropped off.

There is no point here other than you agreeing with the point I made, and wanting to a argue by saying the same thing with more words.

The point is that Tesla is making a larger gross margin on each vehicle than other automakers, allowing them to lower prices and maintain a higher market share than competitors and continue there factory build-outs. When sales rebound, they can take off faster.

They have almost $25 billion of cash in the bank. If they manage to double that they could buy either Ford or GM for cash, though I have no idea why they would want to.

[adrynalyne]

On 08/03/2024 at 13:35, DocM said:

The point is that Tesla is making a larger gross margin on each vehicle than other automakers, allowing them to lower prices and maintain a higher market share than competitors and continue there factory build-outs. When sales rebound, they can take off faster.

They have almost $25 billion of cash in the bank. If they manage to double that they could buy either Ford or GM for cash, though I have no idea why they would want to.

I wasn’t talking about Tesla specifically. 

On 08/03/2024 at 08:22, JayZJay said:

@adrynalyne I don't think @DocM is doing that.  Yes, sales have slowed in that the rate of sales increase has gone down.  You guys are (or seem to be) bent on being negative and not very objective.  @DocM, like myself and maybe @Warwagon, are more pro-Tesla, but certainly not bent on being anti-Tesla.  I'm not sitting here saying everything Tesla is doing is great, but I'm not going to "throw the baby out with the bath water" either, which it seems is exactly what many here do.

Let's talk about Tesla in particular, not EVs in general.

You said "Manufacturers can’t even get the costs down to not sell them at a loss and once the battery packs die, and they will, the vehicle is a complete loss because the cost to replace them is often more than the vehicle’s worth at that point."

There is a big difference between most manufacturers and Tesla (as Doc has shared plenty about already).  Tesla is not selling at a loss and Tesla battery packs should last at least 300,000 miles, though Tesla believes closer to 1 million miles is likely.  But, even if the battery pack only lasted 300,000 miles or so, that car would last 15 years if driving 20,000 miles per year.  Obviously, if one only drives 10,000 miles per year, you get 30 years.  What if one is really good about keeping their battery in the 20-80% charge range and they get 400-500,000 miles out of the battery pack?  The body is probably the problem in that case.

As Munro & Associates (https://leandesign.com) have thoroughly discussed for the past few years, most of the mainstream auto industry is chasing Tesla in many areas.  Tesla wasn't bogged down with an auto industry past and they haven't been afraid to rock the boat if there was a better way to do things. Munro tears down and closely analyzes much of what all the players are doing and they seem to be more of the opinion that much of the auto industry is scrambling and struggling to stay with Tesla since Tesla is nimble and innovates and tweaks constantly to fix problems or make improvements.

Saying ev sales are in a slump isnt negative, it’s a fact. I wasn’t even referring to Tesla but the market in general. Assuming I was talking negatively about Tesla or in general isn’t very objective…

[JayZJay]

On 08/03/2024 at 15:46, adrynalyne said:

I wasn’t talking about Tesla specifically. 

Saying ev sales are in a slump isnt negative, it’s a fact. I wasn’t even referring to Tesla but the market in general. Assuming I was talking negatively about Tesla or in general isn’t very objective…

Understood.  I apologize for not articulating a bit more clearly.  The negativity I was referring to was what (to me) seems like has been the general trend in this thread.   The reason why I focused on Tesla in regards to the slump is that you brought up the Money article and the problems with sales, the potential issue of a dying battery pack and the cost to replace it vs. the worth of the car in regards to EVs as a whole, but based on all of the facts, Tesla seems to be less impacted by those issues and positioned to continue to stay ahead.  Only time will tell if Tesla is truly ahead in as many areas in automotive advancement and technology as it appears to be and can avoid the various pitfalls.  With BYD and others, Tesla cannot even think about letting up.

[DocM]

On 08/03/2024 at 17:16, JayZJay said:

...you brought up the Money article and the problems with sales, the potential issue of a dying battery pack and the cost to replace it vs. the worth of the car in regards to EVs as a whole, but based on all of the facts, Tesla seems to be less impacted by those issues and positioned to continue to stay ahead.  Only time will tell if Tesla is truly ahead in as many areas in automotive advancement and technology as it appears to be and can avoid the various pitfalls.  With BYD and others, Tesla cannot even think about letting up.

 

Another thing many observers are missing  is the industry move to lithium iron phosphate (LFP, LMFP, etc) batteries instead of lithium nicke\cobalt. The lithium iron chemistries can be charged to 100% all of the time without causing degradation, they are much longer lived (they can endure more charge\discharge cycles), and  they are far less expensive.

Also of interest is Stellantis exploring lithium sulfur batteries, which are also inexpensive and have a higher energy density than current battery chemistries.

There is also what looks like an industry-wide acceptance of Tesla's 4680 cell and extensions (4695 and 46120), which can use any chemistry and has numerous other  advantages. 

Edited March 8, 2024 by DocM

[wakjak]

another *shocker* Cybertruck failure: $3000 for a $0.15 alibaba tent.

[+virtorio MVC]

On 09/03/2024 at 14:13, wakjak said:

another *shocker* Cybertruck failure: $3000 for a $0.15 alibaba tent.

At least it draws attention away from the panel gaps.