Mac OS on Intel based computers?

[unspec]

...when in reality the guts of an Apple aren't that much different to a PC and to be honest are more often than not a whole generation (or more in the case of graphics cards) behind the PC market.

:o

You built your own PC with a GeForce 6??

WOW!

:right:

--

unspec

[Wickedkitten Veteran]

Originally posted by Advocate

....and I'm sick of Mac zealots saying they can get a Mac for the same price as my PC cost to build and then pointing out that it's a skoda compared to my Aston Martin....Don't you see?!

oh no, I can get a fully upgradable tower with a superdrive for the same price as your self built pc, poor you. If it took you ?1800 to build it how much does it cost retail you think since thats what I've been comparing all along?

That is EXACTLY my fr**gin point! Apple don't realise just how much they are hurting their own market by not making Macs more affordable. I don't need to look up luxury items because as far as I'm concerned only the top end Macs are a luxury item. Why would anyone want to buy an inferior product for more or the same money??? >

I have no idea on how many times people have mentioned that apple doesn't care about making their market share larger but obviously you don't seem to be getting the point. Niche markets are called niche markets for a reason.

The only people that buy those under powered and over priced machines are those that either buy "because it's a Mac" (which admittedly I nearly did) or those that don't know any better.>

blah blah, you have an Ibook so which reason was it for you then?

I don't need to bitch at Dell or Falcon or Alienware because in the PC market I have a choice! That choice is to self build, this is my whole argument which you don't seem to quite grasp! I do self build because I CAN self build. Apple merely restrict consumer choice to maintain an inflated profit on their products. And before you start yes I know other manufacturers do this (Nike, Adidas etc) but not when they have quite the competition that Apple do.>

oh my ****ing god, you don't think Apple users have a choice?We have the choice to either buy the ****ing thing or leave it in the shop> quit acting like people are forced into spending money on Apple. Apple users use Macs because theychoose> to.

Apple seem quite content to perpetuate the myth that "Apple is better because it is Apple" when in reality the guts of an Apple aren't that much different to a PC and to be honest are more often than not a whole generation (or more in the case of graphics cards) behind the PC market.>

if its not that different then why is it that you can't get osx on an amd chip hmm? Btw geforce 4 cards were on g4 towers first so get a clue.

Maybe I'm wrong about the direction Apple should go in, maybe what Apple really need to do is make sure that $ for $ an Apple Mac is at least equal to the performance of a PC. Generally when a manufacturer charges more than a product is "worth" because of branding etc the price has been built on the fact that the product is also superior to other similar products (Sony) as well as having a certain premium for the brand.>

erm yeah certain premium for the brand. Ferrari, Jaguar, and Lamborghini tend to spring to mind.

Now let's tackle the "luxury" bit, which is quite easy. Every PC is a luxury according to the dictionary definition so kindly provided by Dave. The difference I suppose is that an Apple is an over priced under powered luxury compared to a PC.>

according to you pc's are cheap so obviously they can't be luxury items

You really need to get over this WickedKitten and just accept that Apple can never compete with PC's while their price/performance ratio is so poor. >

just because your g3 ibook is slow don't go trying to force non optimised views on the rest of apple's lineup.

[Advocate]

Originally posted by unspec

:o

You built your own PC with a GeForce 6??

WOW!

:right:

--

unspec

SIGH

? for ? Apple are at least one if not more generations behind....why do I have to keep explaining myself?

This thread is getting quite boring really.......and by that I include myself in the "boring" people. By the sounds of it we could and are going to argue that Macs are/are not overpriced so why don't we just agree to disagree? I mean, it's not as if I hate Macs or anything, this isn't a "Macs are rubbish" thread.

/me extends his hand of peace

[usr.bin]

Originally posted by Advocate

...Interestingly enough I've just been speaking to a programmer friend of mine who has suggested with the downloadable version of Darwin we may just be able to disassemble the rest of OS X and reverse engineer/recompile for x86....

/me pats his Aston Martin safe in the knowledge it'll be overtaking quite a few skodas for a while

I don't mean to be the bearer of bad news, but your programmer friend has been hitting the happy stick a little too hard. Darwin is the base of the Operating System. Deep down inside, Darwin is just that little Daemon called BSD. You aren't going to be able to "reverse engineer/recompile" OSX any easier than your going to be able to do so with Windows. This is a **** poor analogy, but assume you have the source code to MS-DOS. Are you suggesting that just because you have the source to that you are going to be able to disassemble Windows 98? Or 95? Or even 3.1 for that matter? No. Take it from another programmer who only hits the happy stick when necessary. You only have the base of the OS. OSX is much more than Darwin (as Wickedkitten can so cheerfully point out if you'd wish).

As far as your 'Aston Martin' running OSX, I fear that it's going to scream in terror when it realizes it's trying to run an Operating System created specifically for hardware he's never seen before. Another analogy, this time not so horrible, but not quite the best, try putting Diesel fuel in your Aston Martin and please get back with me on how far and fast it runs. My guess is you're going to be ****ting bricks just so you have something to throw at it before the days up.

--dave

[Wickedkitten Veteran]

Originally posted by Advocate

...course, we could always take ?1800 each and me build a PC and you buy a Mac and see who gets the more powerful system;))

Interestingly enough I've just been speaking to a programmer friend of mine who has suggested with the downloadable version of Darwin we may just be able to disassemble the rest of OS X and reverse engineer/recompile for x86. An interesting thought and may be worth it just to see how you react when you see the perfromance on a ?1800 PC as compared to your iMac :evil:

/me pats his Aston Martin safe in the knowledge it'll be overtaking quite a few skodas for a while b>

If the computer that you spent ?1800 on is the one that the specs are for in your sig I thnk you're being quite cheeky in calling it an Aston Martin.

[unspec]

Interestingly enough I've just been speaking to a programmer friend of mine who has suggested with the downloadable version of Darwin we may just be able to disassemble the rest of OS X and reverse engineer/recompile for x86.

Right...

Why not "just disassemble" Windows XP and reverse engineer it? Making a free OS that is 100% compatible with all your games, apps etc and destroying Microsoft too?

Don't you think if it was that easy to disassemble and reverse engineer software we wouldn?t have the situation that we do with MS?

Tell me just how you would reverse engineer all the layers and APIs that arnotb> included with the downloadable version of Darwin for x86? Please also tell me how you would manage to prove that it was ?clean room? reverse engineered. I think we?d also love to know after all that, just how you will manage not to tread on any Apple IP?

Of course your programmer friend must know the answers to all this as it appeared such an easy task?.

--

unspec

[Advocate]

OK so we can't agree to disagree

Originally posted by Wickedkitten

oh no, I can get a fully upgradable tower with a superdrive for the same price as your self built pc, poor you. If it took you ?1800 to build it how much does it cost retail you think since thats what I've been comparing all along?

>

You have never compared like for like, your tower with superdrive is not as powerful as my self built system. I can self build, Mac owners can't....I can get a more powerful machine for my money than a Mac owner. Accept it because you can't prove otherwise.

I have no idea on how many times people have mentioned that apple doesn't care about making their market share larger but obviously you don't seem to be getting the point. Niche markets are called niche markets for a reason.

>

Why advertise if they don't want to make their market share larger? WHat is the aim of any comapny? To make their market share larger to therefore make more money. And you asked me to read a book on economics? lol

blah blah, you have an Ibook so which reason was it for you then?

>

oh my ****ing god, you don't think Apple users have a choice? We have the choice to either buy the ****ing thing or leave it in the shop> quit acting like people are forced into spending money on Apple. Apple users use Macs because theychoose> to.

You obviously have a problem with written english, I meant they don't have a choice between buying a pre-built Mac or building their own.

if its not that different then why is it that you can't get osx on an amd chip hmm? Btw geforce 4 cards were on g4 towers first so get a clue.

>

If it's SO different why is Linux available on AMD AND G4? Oh and btw the GeForce 4 wasn't available on g4 towers first. Get a clue.

erm yeah certain premium for the brand. Ferrari, Jaguar, and Lamborghini tend to spring to mind.

>

Ferrari = better performance for more money

Jaguar = better performance and/or more comfort for more money

Lamborghini = better performance for more money

Apple = worse performance for the same money

Apple = the same perfromance for more money

??? again, get a clue

according to you pc's are cheap so obviously they can't be luxury items

>

All PC's (including Macs) are luxury items.....Luxury doesn't mean expensive it means not required. Did you read the dictionary definition supplied above?

'nuff said I think

[Advocate]

Originally posted by Wickedkitten

If the computer that you spent ?1800 on is the one that the specs are for in your sig I thnk you're being quite cheeky in calling it an Aston Martin. >

Actually no it's been upgraded quite a bit since then. Do I need to explain the concept of upgrading parts?

[Advocate]

Originally posted by unspec

Right...

Why not "just disassemble" Windows XP and reverse engineer it? Making a free OS that is 100% compatible with all your games, apps etc and destroying Microsoft too?

Don't you think if it was that easy to disassemble and reverse engineer software we wouldn?t have the situation that we do with MS?

Tell me just how you would reverse engineer all the layers and APIs that are notb> included with the downloadable version of Darwin for x86? Please also tell me how you would manage to prove that it was ?clean room? reverse engineered. I think we?d also love to know after all that, just how you will manage not to tread on any Apple IP?

Of course your programmer friend must know the answers to all this as it appeared such an easy task?.

--

unspec

I said it would be fairly straightforward, not that it would be legal or otherwise "smiled upon" by Apple. All parts of OS X are included on the install CD are they not? and isn't that just how Linux works? You have the base OS that runs on your architecture and then you compile apps from code? Actually I suppose "fairly straightforward" is a huge exaggeration but it IS possible.....difficult yes but possible.

[linux2]

How bout we call a time out and just agree to disagree? If you have a PC and your happy with it. . . .cool. Same goes for a Mac user. BTW Advocate. . .some of your comments are not really condusive to getting sponsorship from Apple. . .ya think?

[usr.bin]

Originally posted by Advocate

I said it would be fairly straightforward, not that it would be legal or otherwise "smiled upon" by Apple. All parts of OS X are included on the install CD are they not? and isn't that just how Linux works? You have the base OS that runs on your architecture and then you compile apps from code? Actually I suppose "fairly straightforward" is a huge exaggeration but it IS possible.....difficult yes but possible.

So your telling me that you can take the Windows XP CD and disassemble it because the binary files are there? Because you don't get all of the OS X source code. No sir. Programs for Macs are writtin in binary as well. So you are going to have to disassemble these programs. Darwin is the ONLY part of OSX that is open source. Once again: DARWIN IS THE ONLY PART OF OSX THAT IS OPEN SOURCE!!! There are many other layers of OSX that you are talking about taking apart, and if your programmer friend (who I'm assuming can program?) says he can do this, well then I'd truly like to meet him because we could take down Microsoft with thier own damn Operating System.

--dave

[unspec]

I said it would be fairly straightforward, not that it would be legal or otherwise..

Actually I suppose "fairly straightforward" is a huge exaggeration but it IS possible.....difficult yes but possible.

I think difficult is understating it just a little....

Put it this way, I won't looking out for the "Advocate & Super Best Programmer Friend OS" Install CD anytime soon.

Wait, I'll save a CDR just in case!

:right:

--

unspec

[L33T P3NIS]

macs go vr00m

[Dazzla Veteran]

I can see this argument going on for eternity. Here's a question for you people, this thread is about Mac OS on intel. I've just specced up a Powermac to the ?1800 that Advocate had his PC secced up at:

933 G4 (Certain to be speed bumped in the next few weeks)

256 MB

60GB

CD-RW

GF4 Ti

Mac OS X>

Now, which would you rather have?

No competition really seeing as you like OS X but it's not going to appear on Wintel any time soon if ever.

[Wickedkitten Veteran]

Originally posted by Advocate

OK so we can't agree to disagree

Why advertise if they don't want to make their market share larger? WHat is the aim of any comapny? To make their market share larger to therefore make more money. And you asked me to read a book on economics? lol

Are you saying cos AMD doesn't advertise they don't want a larger market share? Apple advertises because they want to give computer users an experience, thus their digital hub strategy. They are already (as I've ****ing said before) made enough of a profit on the users they have now. If they cared about bigger market share they could have dropped the prices since they haven't what does that ****ing tell you

Ferrari = better performance for more money

Jaguar = better performance and/or more comfort for more money

Lamborghini = better performance for more money

Apple = worse performance for the same money

Apple = the same perfromance for more money

??? again, get a clue

worse performance in what exactly? you keep saying worse performance blah blah yet you never say what its worse performance in, why don't you clarify or shut up.

You obviously have a problem with written english, I meant they don't have a choice between buying a pre-built Mac or building their own.

like I said they have a choice between buying a mac or not buying a mac, if they were that put out by the fact they couldn't build a mac they wouldn't buy one at all

You have never compared like for like, your tower with superdrive is not as powerful as my self built system. I can self build, Mac owners can't....I can get a more powerful machine for my money than a Mac owner. Accept it because you can't prove otherwise.

like i said dumbass retail vs retail. What can you get for ?1800 retail that comes with a dvd burner included?

If it's SO different why is Linux available on AMD AND G4? Oh and btw the GeForce 4 wasn't available on g4 towers first. Get a clue.>

because of the fact that yellow dog linux is optimised for the ppc der. and yes gf4 was on g4 towers first, look it up.

All PC's (including Macs) are luxury items.....Luxury doesn't mean expensive it means not required. Did you read the dictionary definition supplied above?

'nuff said I think >

lux?u?ry (lgzh-r, lksh-)

n. pl. lux?u?ries

Something inessential but conducive to pleasure and comforSomething expensive or hard to obtain.

Sumptuous living or surroundings: lives in luxury.

judging by the amount of times you've misquoted me I don't think I'm the one with the reading problem pal

Actually no it's been upgraded quite a bit since then. Do I need to explain the concept of upgrading parts??

a company called sonnet makes cpu upgrades for g4's but I guess you wouldn't know that along with the fact that you can upgrade everything in a tower just as easily as you can your pc

[L33T P3NIS]

Originally posted by Advocate

I said it would be fairly straightforward, not that it would be legal or otherwise "smiled upon" by Apple. All parts of OS X are included on the install CD are they not? and isn't that just how Linux works? You have the base OS that runs on your architecture and then you compile apps from code? Actually I suppose "fairly straightforward" is a huge exaggeration but it IS possible.....difficult yes but possible.

your computer is pretty slow for somone who paid 1800 for it

[Advocate]

I like this thread if only for the ignorance people are showing in it.

Wickedkitten can you imagine the Apple board meeting?

CEO: "Hey guys I know how we can improve our share price. Let's NOT try and sell more machines! Just imagine the sales pitch "We DON'T want new users, we only want to sell to existing Apple Mac owners, all you PC owners looking to buy a Mac can go take a running jump" it'll be great!"

Couple that with the fact that Apple are currently running their "Switch" campaign and it leaves me thinking that you Wickedkitten are living in a little fantasy world all of your own making.

l33t p3nis: As I've already stated in a previous post, the spec in my signature is not what I currently own. That is an old sig that needs updating.

Current specs.

AMD Athlon XP 2000+ about as fast as a G4 1gig I would have thought

GeForce 4 Ti 4600

512meg Crucial DDR PC2100 RAM

Creative Soundblaster Audigy Platinum

2x Maxtor ATA133 40Gb HDD's (7200 rpm 2meg cache)

Toshiba DVD-RAM

LiteON 32x CDRW

Asus A7V333 Motherboard

Coolermaster ATC210 "Clear Blue" case

2x 19" Pure flat CRT monitors

Microsoft Wireless Intellimouse Explorer

This little lot cost LESS than ?1800

So ok let's settle this thing once and for all. If anyone here can prove that a Mac that matches the price of mine and can achieve higher fps in Quake3 (a game available on both systems) than mine for the same or less money then I will publicly apologise in a seperate thread. If however you cannot beat the fps in a Mac costing the same or less then I would also require an apology. Sound fair enough?

Rules for comp.

I'm gonna knock ?200 of the ?1800 which is the cost of one monitor....so the price must be ?1600 or less INCLUDING a 19" CRT monitor.

The resolution for the timedemo can be chosen by whoever would like to meet this challenge but I would suggest that a quake 3 config file be supplied by an honest third party and that the test be conducted on the same version of Quake 3 executable.

Proof would be required not only of the results of the test but also proof of price....

No more arguments, I never wanted to fall out with anybody here but you've spouted enough about how an ?1800 iMac can compete with my rig so now prove it.

One final word regarding disassembly of code. You think this has never been done? I apologise if I made it sound easy originally that was perhaps my moment of "blind faith" but it is in fact possible.

The gauntlet has now been thrown down.....who's gonna pick it up?

[usr.bin]

Originally posted by Advocate

...One final word regarding disassembly of code. You think this has never been done? I apologise if I made it sound easy originally that was perhaps my moment of "blind faith" but it is in fact possible....

Hello. I would like to introduce you to me. I'm Dave. I find it retardidly humerous that you have no responded to any of my posts directly. I would like to think it's because my points are so clear that no silly man would attempt a reply, but this is NeoWin, I expect silly replies.

You brought up the disassembly of code. I'm a programmer. I'm a strong advocate of Mac, but I use Windows and I use it on a PC because I'm a poor boy still. I couldn't really counter your posts about Mac vs. PC, but I can assure you that your programmer friends is being quite the ****nut if he is saying he can disassembe OSX and reassemble it for i386 and make it run halfway decent, or at all. It's not the fact that you just made it sound easy, but you made it sound like it would be accomplished in mere weeks or months. This is something that would take years or decades to do. Have you ever seen disassembled code? It's all hexadecimal. It's all the basic way a computer communicates. It looks nothing like C/C++ or any other language most people are familiar with because there are so many different ways to write a program. In short terms, by the time your programmer friend disassembles and reassembles the program for i386 just so it can boot properly, OS L would be out. It's something that is not only "not easy" but completely and retardily unfeasable. You said it was possible, yes it is. It's also possible that your mouse will dissentegrate into a million pieces and fly to the toaster to cook until they turn extra brown and then regenerate as a PS2 disc. ANYTHING is possible, but in reality, you seperate what is feasible to what is not. Thank you very much for your time.

--dave

[Dazzla Veteran]

Curious, You seem to think that FPS actually means something. In my previous post, I posted the specs of a Powermac with GF4 Ti for under ?1800, now that is going to get over 150 fps easily, so what's the point in comparing two systems which achieve over 150 fps?

How about comparing Ease of use? work flow? GUI aesthetics? and in the iMacs case, a fantastic ergonomic screen?

You can't? Oh right. They are just some of the few things that are far more important then an extra few fps even when both will **** on Quake III.

Now this argument about bang for buck, PC will beat mac on numbers, fps, etc. Especially if you compare home build PC with pre bought Mac. But this isn't the be all and end all of purchasing a computer as I mentioned above. There are far more important things.

Oh, an advocate, unless you've got water cooling, I wouldn't want to be working on that PC even if it gets 284.374 FPS on a Quake III times demo. A quiet working environment is a much more valuable asset if you ask me.

[Wickedkitten Veteran]

Originally posted by Advocate

I like this thread if only for the ignorance people are showing in it.

Wickedkitten can you imagine the Apple board meeting?

CEO: "Hey guys I know how we can improve our share price. Let's NOT try and sell more machines! Just imagine the sales pitch "We DON'T want new users, we only want to sell to existing Apple Mac owners, all you PC owners looking to buy a Mac can go take a running jump" it'll be great!"

Couple that with the fact that Apple are currently running their "Switch" campaign and it leaves me thinking that you Wickedkitten are living in a little fantasy world all of your own making.

And while Apple's market share of the home computer market remains around 5 percent, Jobs said this was still bigger than Mercedes and BMW could boast in the US car market.

"Our market share is small, but by no means small enough to be inconsequential," he said, noting that Apple is in a good position to double its market share. "The great thing is when you have 5 percent market share, all you have to do is convince another five out of the other 95 percent to switch and you have doubled your market share."[/b]

does that sound like a man that is foaming at the mouth being concerned about market share?

l33t p3nis: As I've already stated in a previous post, the spec in my signature is not what I currently own. That is an old sig that needs updating.

Current specs.

AMD Athlon XP 2000+ about as fast as a G4 1gig I would have thought

GeForce 4 Ti 4600

512meg Crucial DDR PC2100 RAM

Creative Soundblaster Audigy Platinum

2x Maxtor ATA133 40Gb HDD's (7200 rpm 2meg cache)

Toshiba DVD-RAM

LiteON 32x CDRW

Asus A7V333 Motherboard

Coolermaster ATC210 "Clear Blue" case

2x 19" Pure flat CRT monitors

Microsoft Wireless Intellimouse Explorer

This little lot cost LESS than ?1800>

could that be cos a lot of that **** you got for free?

So ok let's settle this thing once and for all. If anyone here can prove that a Mac that matches the price of mine and can achieve higher fps in Quake3 (a game available on both systems) than mine for the same or less money then I will publicly apologise in a seperate thread. If however you cannot beat the fps in a Mac costing the same or less then I would also require an apology. Sound fair enough?

Rules for comp.

I'm gonna knock ?200 of the ?1800 which is the cost of one monitor....so the price must be ?1600 or less INCLUDING a 19" CRT monitor.

The resolution for the timedemo can be chosen by whoever would like to meet this challenge but I would suggest that a quake 3 config file be supplied by an honest third party and that the test be conducted on the same version of Quake 3 executable.

Proof would be required not only of the results of the test but also proof of price....

No more arguments, I never wanted to fall out with anybody here but you've spouted enough about how an ?1800 iMac can compete with my rig so now prove it.

One final word regarding disassembly of code. You think this has never been done? I apologise if I made it sound easy originally that was perhaps my moment of "blind faith" but it is in fact possible.

The gauntlet has now been thrown down.....who's gonna pick it up?

seeing as how your comp cost you 2700 American this will be as easy as ****

PowerMac G4/933 256/60/Superdrive/GeForce4 Dual w/ 256mb RAM upgrade ($400 mail in rebate with monitor purchase from Apple until 8/12/02) 2299

LaCie electron 22blue III w/Hood 975

grand total 3274 minus 400 rebate 2874 or ?1854

Thats the logical thing someone would do with that big a price difference don't you think considering the fact that you never paid ?1800 for yours?

As for framerates you can compare your card to dual geforce4 cards I'm sure

[unspec]

One final word regarding disassembly of code. You think this has never been done? I apologise if I made it sound easy originally that was perhaps my moment of "blind faith" but it is in fact possible.

I never said it couldn't be done, or said that it hadn't been done in the past.

You were the guy that said it was easy, when it's actually monumentally ****ing hard task to reverse engineer every closed source layer on OS X as well as rewriting all those PPC instructions, before finally compiling it for x86.

All I did was call you on it. Enjoy.

--

unspec

[Vidar]

Um. Just to throw a flaming stick into the debate/rants..

The reason you don't see OS X running on a PC is simple.. the PC doesn't use a motorola CPU. Granted I've heard people getting ROMs from macs and pseudo-emulating but I've yet to see it IRL.

As for the Apple vs. PC, I think your missing his point Wicked. His voice on "choice" wasn't whether to buy or not, but as he pointed out, on a PC you have a choice of going Prebuilt or Self-Built where as with the Apple, you buy Apples from Apple.

With a PC, I can pay inflated prices for crappy hardware ::cough::Gateway::cough:: or build the thing from mobo on up at a sometimes lower cost. Btw, Using Alienware as a reference for a prebuilt isn't quite fair as they are custom high-end gaming machines. That's like saying "I can buy a 1.5 Liter engine car from Apple and pay X amount of dollars or buy a Z3 BMW 1.5 Liter for the same price" when you can buy a chevrolet/ford/etc 1.5 Liter car for a LOT lower price.

In retrospect, yes. Apple is a niche market though if you pay attention to Apple's marketing, they are now getting out of the niche with their "The Everyman's computer" commercials. Don't get me wrong, I love the Mac. I'm still waiting to get my eMac ::licks lips:: but an eMac isn't a 1.667 GHz 512MB DDR fully loaded PC..... but I'll easily be paying 2/3rds what I paid for my current system. Yes its a self-built. Now why did I use it as an example? Cause my parents 1GHz 512MB SDRAM PC133 Hewlet Packard only cost $800 and came with a free printer and monitor. Its a prebuilt that has more memory than an eMac.

Prebuilt PC = "Let's use Quantum fireball 4500rpm drives, its cheap." type of issues. Low end PC: $500 (eTower, HP)

Selfbuilt PC = "Let's use IBM ultra ATA 133 10,000rpm drives at a higher cost, but its what I want." $1000+ (Unlimited Choice)

Apple = "Um. Whatever it comes with. I don't know how much it added to the total cost." Low end iMac/eMac, $799/$1000 (Apple is your only choice)

[unspec]

Vidar, I notice that you neglected to mention the resale prices.

Have you seen how well Apple hardware keeps it's value?

You can sell an older system and regain much of the money that you spend on it. This makes up for the "1/3 extra" cost IMO.

If you're a Pro user then go for a barebones Power Mac tower from a reseller, find some supported PC hardware on the cheap and you're good to go. It even keeps its value nicely.

There are more options than clicking on the Apple Store page, you just have to look a little harder.

--

unspec

[Wickedkitten Veteran]

Originally posted by Vidar

Um. Just to throw a flaming stick into the debate/rants..

The reason you don't see OS X running on a PC is simple.. the PC doesn't use a motorola CPU. Granted I've heard people getting ROMs from macs and pseudo-emulating but I've yet to see it IRL.

As for the Apple vs. PC, I think your missing his point Wicked. His voice on "choice" wasn't whether to buy or not, but as he pointed out, on a PC you have a choice of going Prebuilt or Self-Built where as with the Apple, you buy Apples from Apple.

With a PC, I can pay inflated prices for crappy hardware ::cough::Gateway::cough:: or build the thing from mobo on up at a sometimes lower cost. Btw, Using Alienware as a reference for a prebuilt isn't quite fair as they are custom high-end gaming machines. That's like saying "I can buy a 1.5 Liter engine car from Apple and pay X amount of dollars or buy a Z3 BMW 1.5 Liter for the same price" when you can buy a chevrolet/ford/etc 1.5 Liter car for a LOT lower price.

Do you actually expect me to compare a high end graphics machine to an EMachine then?

If you buy Apple's you can buy from Apple or you can buy from an Apple reseller, can you buy a dell computer from gateway? Can you buy a Sony Computer from Hewlett Packard? Do you think people get ****ed off cos they can't selfbuild a Sun Workstation? Same principle so why get ****ed off cos Apple does it?

In retrospect, yes. Apple is a niche market though if you pay attention to Apple's marketing, they are now getting out of the niche with their "The Everyman's computer" commercials. Don't get me wrong, I love the Mac. I'm still waiting to get my eMac ::licks lips:: but an eMac isn't a 1.667 GHz 512MB DDR fully loaded PC..... but I'll easily be paying 2/3rds what I paid for my current system. Yes its a self-built. Now why did I use it as an example? Cause my parents 1GHz 512MB SDRAM PC133 Hewlet Packard only cost $800 and came with a free printer and monitor. Its a prebuilt that has more memory than an eMac.

Prebuilt PC = "Let's use Quantum fireball 4500rpm drives, its cheap." type of issues. Low end PC: $500 (eTower, HP)

Selfbuilt PC = "Let's use IBM ultra ATA 133 10,000rpm drives at a higher cost, but its what I want." $1000+ (Unlimited Choice)

Apple = "Um. Whatever it comes with. I don't know how much it added to the total cost." Low end iMac/eMac, $799/$1000 (Apple is your only choice)

Apple has been having the same marketing ever since they imacs were first unveiled. The only reason people are taking such an offence now is because they are specifically targeting you. Not your granny who just wants to send email to your Uncle Bob, not your aunt edna who doesn't know her arse from her elbow but just bought a digital camera and can't figure out xp but you.

and btw the hard drives in the g4's are ibm deskstar's. It tells you the components right in the system profiler

[Guest deadzombie]

I would LOVE to see Apple take a lrger market share. Might raise the industry standard of PC manufacturers across the board.

Heaven forbid they actually have to do something original to compete with Apple.