The OFFICIAL Longhorn (ALPHA) Thread

[kairon]

Frankly, I don't think any of your conspiracy theories are true, how much can you really believe the press?I think everything we know now about Longhorn will be different when it comes out. Don't be so paranoid. Even so, no one's forcing you to upgrade to Longhorn anyways.

[Fonze]

i thought i heard it would run non-pladium programs the same as pladium programs, but without the featured security.

i think the required hardware will be for xml parseing and the new gfx engine, etc.

thats just a guess

[m0]

<edit> This isn't a place to request warez, please follow the community rules. </edit>

thanks

m0

[werejag]

ie fix for lh that works

ie_fix.zip

[Glowstick]

XML parsing doesn't need new hardware. It works fine on your box right now.

[kairon]

ie fix for lh that works

Or:

http://xbetas.com/~jon/dl/ie_fix.zip

I mirrored it at xbetas for everyone :)

An IE fix that actually works, yahoo!

[condorstats]

lol, well im enjoying the mad consipiracy theories

i wont install it, cos the .NET beta didnt have the drivers for my Ethernet card, but XP Pro did :s so i doubt Longhorn has em.

[xxxSxxx]

I installed Longhorn and it has all the drivers I need. I also installed win.net RC1 and it does as well. And if it doesn't you can always get em.

As for conspiracy theory, it may be true that MS is moving the market in the direction of integrated support against warez and copyright protection. But knowing this does it make you want to get any new hardware with that in mind?? I don't want it. There will be hardware makers not participating in that "conspiracy" that enough users will not purchase "conspiracy" hardware that the "conspirators" will be forced to back off their "conspiracy"

And the FBI have not contacted me yet. Probably tomorrow...

[raid517]

Lol, you guys calling me crazy! Now that is funny. A little bit of research before you comment wouldn't go amiss. Do you guys even know how to use Google? If you do try searching for the terms Palladeum and Trustworthy computing in the same search string. I am sure if you do you will find that it wasn't me that invented Palladeum. Bill gates did... And if you can't believe Gates and his cronies in person, then maybe there is no hope for you after all.

Q

Ps

Of course there is a certain segment of society to whom all of this debate will mean nothing. (Which is possibly why some folks are saying they are unconcerned about this). Predominatly they will be the sort who never download any illegal MP3s, games, movies or other illicit content. They will possibly be middle class, in good jobs and with a tendency to buy most of their digital entertainment and software applications from legitimate sources. Unfortunately that doesn't fully describe me. I enjoy my illicit content, specifically because of its illicit nature. Life would be no fun without the odd free movie, game or sofware app to play with. I will often pay for my content too, but only for those I really like, while the rest are usually just discarded. But the bottom line is that this is what makes computing fun for me. Sure some guys will say I'm a low life, but hey say hello to a world full of low life. The amount of people who don't download illicit content is rapidly becomming a minority. However it isn't just about illicit/illegal content, its about every aspect of how you use your computer. The bottom line is you will no longer be the one assiging user privliges. It will be MS, the software developers, the RIAA, MPAA (Motion Picture Assotiation) and any other commercial interest that Bill Gates decides to jump into bed with. Oh - and a point that obviously has escaped the detractors attention is that this will mean the end of free software and free alternate OS' too, since Palladeum is proprietry code and will be licenced by MS to all interested parties, inluding Linux developers. (Remember if it aint Palladeum certified, it aint 'trustworthy').

So call me crazy if you want, but before you do, read a lot more about this, then come back and tell me if you think Longhorn/palladeum is really such a neat idea.

Q

[raid517]

Still think I'm taliking though a hole in the back of my head? Well try reading this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/25891.html Its possibly better put than I could hope to accomplish, but it lays out in detail everything I have said here and what the impications for everyone will be. If you go to sleep on this one, next time you blink MS will have taken over the entire ball game, and screwed the referee into the bargain too. The words 'diabolical', 'despotical', 'genuinely evil', all too easily spring to mind. And yes this comes from a previous sceptic of MS' 'so called' world domination plans. I laughed too. I'm not laughing any more. The question is, why are you? It is easy to laugh at personal misfortune (often others more than your own), but to laugh when freedom, choice and liberty are at stake is patently insane.

Q

[Osiris]

Well Whislt I do think that article is partly mislead and perhaps a slight bias to a forboding image of the future, there are definite concerns here, now I am as strong advocate of Microsoft, I am one hell of a Microsoft supporter, no doubt to that, but you have to look at the big picture sometimes.

The internet was Microsofts biggest threat back in 1995 when people started to realise its potential and the next wave of the future, so what did they do? Basically rushes to release Windows98, the first Internet compatible Operating System, with Explorer bundled and all ready to rumble.

Whats the problem in todays age, now that they conquered the internet? Open source, more rivals, more competetion?

This Pallidium would be an ideal way to "castrate" the competition in a very subversive manner. Is that what this is intended to do? I dont know.

But its something to think about. My only concern with this technology is

1. Will the hardware be used to digitally identify people on the internet?

2. Will this limit my ability to use software of any nature illegitimate, or legal?

RE 1. Peoples privacy on the internet must be kept sacred at all costs, and not owned or watched by any corporation. Government/National Security yes, Corporations, owning my online information, I think not., and in its hardware and even software aspects, this technology has the ability to do this.

RE 2. I guess someone has to make a bold step forward to controlling and managing this mushroom cloud of Piracy and ripping, but is this the way to go about it? and how many people will tolerate this? Are the new features in Longhorn, going to be great enough to outway this loss of freedom over your system?

Look I dont have all the answers but its this simple;

You cannot obtain greater security on the internet or in the computing world without sacrificing some liberties and freedoms.

[werejag]

read my sig

[Osiris]

wow ben franklin, copied my last point! lol

ah well benny I dont know how long ago you said that, but its true thoughout life, civilisations, and now technology.

[werejag]

give me liberity or give me death

[raid517]

Dude you don't get the point, Ben Franklin was saying people who are prepared to give up liberty for a little more security dont DESERVE liberty. That's what the NAZIS did, all the security in the world you could want there. Only thing is, freedom went out the window. This is what is proposed here too. Its kind of an American culture right now, screw liberty/freedom all we want is security. Now that cuture iof paranoia is being passed on to the rest of the world, only this time its being done with M$' own perverted self interests at heart.

Support M$ if you will. Some people supported the Nazis and the Communists too. In the end they were both found to be corrupt.

Q

Ps

This is not just about a 'forboding image of the future'... If MS have their way this IS the future. A little bit of research and reading will show you that this is comming within a matter of months. It is no 'dream' or 'vague possibilty'... it is solid doccumented 100% hard fact. By this time next year Palladeum will be intergrated into all new PC and computer components that are sold. When this happens you will relinquish your user rights to a vast array of MS corporate interests and partners who will then be the ones who will decide almost exclusively what you can and cannot do with your PC.

Edited December 7, 2002 by raid517

[raid517]

Quote:

University of Cambridge researcher Ross Anderson has an excellent FAQ out here on the net. http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html Anderson's Palladium FAQ describes an escalating set of abuse scenarios for the technology, culminating with the president of the United States disabling another country's PCs.

Some quotes:

Disney will be able to sell you DVDs that will decrypt and run on a Palladium platform, but which you won't be able to copy. The music industry will be able to sell you music downloads that you won't be able to swap. They will be able to sell you CDs that you'll only be able to play three times, or only on your birthday. All sorts of new marketing possibilities will open up.

Palladium will also make it much harder for you to run unlicensed software. Pirated software can be detected and deleted remotely. It will also make it easier for people to rent software rather than buying it; and if you stop paying the rent, then not only does the software stop working but so may the files it created. For years, Bill Gates has dreamed of finding a way to make the Chinese pay for software: Palladium could be the answer to his prayer.

There will be remote censorship: the mechanisms designed to delete pirated music under remote control may be used to delete documents that a court (or a software company) has decided are offensive - this could be anything from pornography to writings that criticise political leaders. Software companies can also make it harder for you to switch to their competitors' products; for example, Word could encrypt all your documents using keys that only Microsoft products have access to; this would mean that you could only read them using Microsoft products, not with any competing word processor.

Try to print a screenshot of a digital movie without digitized permission, and your printout would show an error message in the window where the image should be. Forward an e-mail meant for your eyes only, and recipients would be unable to decrypt it. Forget to pay your music subscription, and your Palladium-enhanced player will refuse to decrypt the tunes on your hard drive.

Some programs that give people more control over their PCs, such as VMware and Total Recorder, are unlikely to work under TCPA.

Together, the nub [a part of the OS] and coprocessor [a chip on the motherboard holding a unique encryption key pair] are designed to encrypt data in such a way that no other combination of nub and coprocessor would be able to decrypt it. Change a single bit of code or move the data to another computer, and it is unreadable. This is the core of Palladium, according to Peter Biddle, a Microsoft product unit manager leading Palladium's development.

This article is excellent reading. If anybody still wants a new Palladium OS (like Longhorn) and Palladium-compliant hardware after reading this they must be absolutely nuts.

PS

While the above outlines many worst case scenarios, it does at least point to vast new opportunities for MS to abuse their position in the market. There are a thousand and more ways, many as yet undreamt of, that this technology can be applied so that MS can rob you of more of you money and your liberty. All I'm saying is that if you don't care and one day you wake up to find out the liberty you once so treasured is gone, then as Ben Franklin said, you will only have yourself to blame.

Q

Edited December 7, 2002 by raid517

[kairon]

Dude you don't get the point, Ben Franklin was saying people who are prepared to give up liberty for a little more security dont DESERVE liberty. That's what the NAZIS did, all the security in the world you could want there. Only thing is, freedom went out the window. This is what is proposed here too. Its kind of an American culture right now, screw liberty/freedom all we want is security. Now that cuture iof paranoia is being passed on to the rest of the world, only this time its being done with M$' own perverted self interests at heart.

Support M$ if you will. Some people supported the Nazis and the Communists too. In the end they were both found to be corrupt.

Q

Ps

This is not just about a 'forboding image of the future'... If MS have their way this IS the future. A little bit of research and reading will show you that this is comming within a matter of months. It is no 'dream' or 'vague possibilty'... it is solid doccumented 100% hard fact. By this time next year Palladeum will be intergrated into all new PC and computer components that are sold. When this happens you will relinquish your user rights to a vast array of MS corporate interests and partners who will then be the ones who will decide almost exclusively what you can and cannot do with your PC.

Your paranoid, :p all I see you talk about is Palladium, why worry about a technology not coming for a while?Longhorn doesn't even HAVE palladium yet and Yukon won't be finished until next year. Did Smart Tags ever become a part of IE when XP came out?Nope, Microsoft got rid of it when they saw no one wanted it. I know one thing, I'd rather Windows over Linux anyday (though Linux is great) because of the overall pleasing user experience and I really think Microsoft has made great strides with XP and Longhorn 3683.

Just remember, when theres a will theres a way, and if Palladium ever becomes a reality they'll always be someone willing to try to crack it.

[werejag]

Dude you don't get the point, Ben Franklin was saying people who are prepared to give up liberty for a little more security dont DESERVE liberty. That's what the NAZIS did, all the security in the world you could want there. Only thing is, freedom went out the window. This is what is proposed here too. Its kind of an American culture right now, screw liberty/freedom all we want is security. Now that cuture iof paranoia is being passed on to the rest of the world, only this time its being done with M$' own perverted self interests at heart.

Support M$ if you will. Some people supported the Nazis and the Communists too. In the end they were both found to be corrupt.

Q

Ps

This is not just about a 'forboding image of the future'... If MS have their way this IS the future. A little bit of research and reading will show you that this is comming within a matter of months. It is no 'dream' or 'vague possibilty'... it is solid doccumented 100% hard fact. By this time next year Palladeum will be intergrated into all new PC and computer components that are sold. When this happens you will relinquish your user rights to a vast array of MS corporate interests and partners who will then be the ones who will decide almost exclusively what you can and cannot do with your PC.

when did i agree with microsoft???

raid517,

what microsoft is doing with technology is pathetic. there days are numbered!

freeedom in software.

[Glowstick]

<wtf>

STOP QUOTING THIS MOFO FAQ THAT IS QUEER BULLSH1T!!!!

OMFG SOME UNIVERSITY WANNABE SMARTASS WRITES A FAQ BASED ON STUFF PULLED OUT OF HIS ASS AND PEOPLE BELIEVE IT STRAIGHT.

</wtf>

Wait until a f*cking implementation of Palladium is out before acting like a doomsbringer!

[raid517]

Well first of all let me say I think you are very rude. Second of all I think its pathetically stupid to say lets wait till its out and then worry about it. When its out it will be TOO LATE! You won't change anything then. I mean duh! That is a pretty dim mentality. I keep trying to impress on you that this is not some dim possibility, its not like smart tags or anything else, this is a certified guaranteed relaity. Its been approved by all chip makers, all related government agencies, The RIAA, The MPAA and governments and corporate pressure groups around the world, - and last but not least by MS themselves.

Of course M$ are depending on the dumass brigade to say "Du! me gonna install this at any cost anyway..." But then there's an awful lot of people who still install the official version of Kazza, or have BonziBuddy running on their PCs too, or who are AOL users. These people are almost without doubt beyond help.

For those willing to make intelligent choices, please do some indepth reading on this subject - and when you do (and only when you do) make up your own mind about whether you have anything to be concerned about. I'm sure once you do, you will be as horrified as I am about what the future and M$ have in store for us all.

Q

[kairon]

First of all who's forcing you to upgrade to Longhorn?No one is, the Microsoft Product Lifecycle gives a Windows version a good amount of time to live with support and updates for a good enough time, by then who knows, Palladium might be some cheesy CRM program for software makers to use.

Your making MS out to be a bunch of dictators or something (which they're not cause they still have to follow the law)

I'm sitting here right now on Longhorn and guess what, no Palladium I hear?Cool.

And I fully agree with what TomServo said.

[Glowstick]

You wanna know why I'm rude? Because noone apparently understands or even wants to hear that this stupid FAQ is based in fictional crap. And it's still being passed around.

You know what ONLY information is available about Palladium? One goddamn whitepaper at Microsoft, and the FAQ you linked makes assumptions on a lot of stuff not mentioned in the single available reference (the whitepaper, just to refresh your short-time memory). So much about credibility and professionalism. But nooooooooooooooooo, only cool news on the Internet are overdrawn rumors and extraordinary claims...

When Palladium is going to be integrated into Longhorn, it will be in there in beta too, so you will hear of it's features soon enough to make terror at MS to remove it, if it's really so evil as everyone is crapping their pants for.

As of now... No implementation? Then STFU!

[raid517]

This isn't about forcing people to do anything. Its about furnishing people with information so they can make informed choices. No one is forcing anyone to 'upgrade' to anything, but so long as people know what they might be upgrading to they can decide if it really is for them or not. I mean for cripes sake I don't understand you guys who say this isn't happening, its like denying the holocaust. All you need to do is search google and you can find hundreds upon hundreds of official MS press releases discussing their plans for Palladium. This is too far advanced - and it is to far down the road to be any kind of 'dream', it's as real as the nose on your own face. It is also patenly stupid to say that you are sitting there on a build of an Apha OS and because it isn't implimented yet, it won't ever be implimented. Dude M$ have clearly stated that Palladium won't be ready till late 2003 at the earliest. Their working on it, just like their working on WinFS and a bunch of other features - if it was all there already it wouldn't be an Alpha OS it would be a finished product.

What astounds me more than anything is those that are passing comment on this without making any effort whatsoever to read more about it first. But like I said, there is always that segment of society who will prefer to stay 'ignorant' and will simply opt to go with the flow. I think the funniest thing of all will be when one day not too far off, you wake up to find you are no longer in control with what you do with your computer anymore.

As for agreeing with the guy who cursed and swore and grunted his opinion above, well that doesn't really surprise me. To be honest I've let go of some more intelligent farts than this.

If you diasgree with MS plans, well at least read up on them first and then explain to us all why they won't do what they have said they plan to do? Why say it, why spend billions developing the technology, why get into bed with corporate and govenment agencies who are interested only in preventing copying and in finding new ways to make you pay for your media content, why scream from the hilltops your absolute opposition to the very concept of free open source software, why make a thousand and one press releases discussing it if they never plan to impliment it? But then again maybe MS like to do completely pointless things like this.

Somehow though I doubt it.

Q

PS

As far as this FAQ is concerned it (as I pointed out) outlines some very worst case scenarios. But It does undeline a potential for abuse that will be inherant in this new technology. And ias has been the case in the Past where there is an opportunity for abuse MS and other large corporate interests will not pass it up. MS are not desgining new ways for big compnies to contol your media content for fun. Their desigining it so it can be used.

Edited December 8, 2002 by raid517

[kairon]

It is also patenly stupid to say that you are sitting there on a build of an Apha OS and because it isn't implimented yet, it won't ever be implimented. Dude M$ have clearly stated that Palladium won't be ready till late 2003 at the earliest. Their working on it, just like their working on WinFS and a bunch of other features - if it was all there already it wouldn't be an Alpha OS it would be a finished product.

What astounds me more than anything is those that are passing comment on this without making any effort whatsoever to read more about it first. But like I said, there is always that segment of society who will prefer to stay 'ignorant' and will simply opt to go with the flow. I think the funniest thing of all will be when one day not too far off, you wake up to find you are no longer in control with what you do with your computer anymore.

As for agreeing with the guy who cursed and swore and grunted his opinion above, well that doesn't really surprise me. To be honest I've let go of some more intelligent farts than this.

If you diasgree with MS plans, well at least read up on them first and then explain to us all why they won't do what they have said they plan to do? Why say it, why spend billions developing the technology, why get into bed with corporate and govenment agencies who are interested only in preventing copying and in finding new ways to make you pay for your media content, why scream from the hilltops your absolute opposition to the very concept of free open source software, why make a thousand and one press releases discussing it if they never plan to impliment it? But then again maybe MS like to do completely pointless things like this.

Somehow though I doubt it.

Q

PS

As far as this FAQ is concerned it (as I pointed out) outlines some very worst case scenarios. But It does undeline a potential for abuse that will be inherant in this new technology. And ias has been the case in the Past where there is an opportunity for abuse MS and other large corporate interests will not pass it up. MS are not desgining new ways for big compnies to contol your media content for fun. Their desigining it so it can be used.

Did I ever say it wouldn't have it? If I did please tell me. My point was that you shouldn't be worrying so much over something not even released in any form for the public to see. Microsoft did also not publish "a thousand one" releases on Palladium, there is only a few official documents on it as far as I've seen, everything else is mostly speculation from the press.

When you've seen Palladium running and preventing you from doing what you want, please tell me because you don't even know what its like. And no a whitepaper and a few press releases doesn't mean anything, ever heard of rumors or "media-hype"?

[PureEdit]

<wtf>

STOP QUOTING THIS MOFO FAQ THAT IS QUEER BULLSH1T!!!!

OMFG SOME UNIVERSITY WANNABE SMARTASS WRITES A FAQ BASED ON STUFF PULLED OUT OF HIS ASS AND PEOPLE BELIEVE IT STRAIGHT.

</wtf>

Wait until a f*cking implementation of Palladium is out before acting like a doomsbringer!

Yeah, you are right :p

If it did that poop would you buy it? NO :p

MS Doesnt and Cant Control the world, but I hope they do what that FAQ Says, it will give linux a good chance to grow :p