The OFFICIAL Longhorn (ALPHA) Thread

[raid517]

Ok, fair enough. This was after all only supposed to be a friendly warning of things to come. Actually some reading of popular search engines churns up a lot more than just a few official MS press releases about this - and you would be very wrong to assume that this is all they have done in terms of implimentation. AMD Intel and other large chip manufacturers have already stated their intention to include the technology in all their future chip sets. So you can be sure that the technology is already at quite an advanced stage. Saying that its unlikely to happen is almost akin to saying that sometime very soon someone is going to disinvent the wheel. It's just plain crazy. Agreed for now playing with this OS (as I did) is unlikely to cause you much concern. Palladium is as I said, about a year or so away (to some people that seems to sound like a thousand years, but a year is really a very short time), so you are risking nothing by taking a look. I am not one of that odd sort who are resistant to change, I had XP (and 2k) since they were early Alphas too. But this one worries me. Nor am I a Linux nut, I am way too lazy to get fully into Linux, I just want to use my computer, not learn how every single piece of code works before I can play a CD. But if it comes to it, Linux may be the only alternative. I still thinks its nuts to say wait till it happens and then try to, erm... what? Stop it? How can you stop it if its already happend? I find this attitude deeply confusing. Its like saying I'll worry about the rock I know will fall on my head after it has fallen on my head. Why not just move away, or do something to stop it falling in the first place? Its nuts...

Anyhoo, like I said this was meant to be a friendly debate, a word of warning and nothing more. So all the f/lamers here can go and shove their heads somewhere where the sun don't shine, since that is where they obviously always keep them anway. For everyone else, well you have at least had some warning, if you choose to do nothing and find out one day soon that your hands have been tied and your rights have been taken away from you, well you only have yourself to blame.

All I said is that you should read more about this. If you don't want to, or refuse to, well that's up to you.

Q

Edited December 8, 2002 by raid517

[Osiris]

Okay Raid mate seriously you need to lay off the ridilon man, its making your a lil paranoid man

Nah seriously mate stop jumping down every ones throat, I half agreed with you in my las tpost and you had a go at me for it, so just step back a lil mate.

I think were all sort of wrong here, Raid I think your being just abit paranoid, just because some lil 5ft glasses wearing billionaire, has a vision of how he wants computing doesnt mean it will be like that. No one would tolerate all the restrictions of pallidium if it did all that that FAQ claimed.

Then on the otherhand, Tom Servo there is more information out there then that rather hollow whitepaper on the microsoft site.

Who knows whats true yet, alot of people on forums like to substitute their opinion for facts, and until Microsoft release ane extensive synopsis of what it will entail or even a prototype for public viewing no one can really say what Pallidium will do.

But realistically only corporations would buy Pallidium machines if they did everything or even half of what that FAQ talked about because it would protect them from copyright infringments, to a home user how would having all those restrictions imposed help them?

Thats last paragraph is just my thought on the issue.

[Glowstick]

Then on the otherhand, Tom Servo there is more information out there then that rather hollow whitepaper on the microsoft site.

Like... show me?

[Premgenius]

Hi!

Can someone be kind enough to give me temp. acccess to longhorn please. PM further details

[Osiris]

http://www.activewin.com/articles/2002/pd.shtml

theres one article taken from an interview with with on the ppl working on Pallidium. And peiced together from other news.

Look if you look at the Patents, already registred they came with Flow diagrams to illustrate the patent, if you look at them, then even the stuff outlined in the article there

and Other Professional(Legitiment) news reports you tend to get a pretty clear picture of what to expect.

By your logic tom, There musnt really be a Windows Longhorn because Microsoft havent had a press release telling you what it is and what exactly will be in it.

[Heinrich-X]

I gotta agree with Tom Servo, I personally stopped posting on Neowin because it was becoming that all my posts were flames at the abundance of n00bs that overwhelm this forum. A lot of these n00bs are what you might call "1337 n00bs", or persons that think they know it all, but in actuality know nothing. Well Tom its not worth the effort to try and set the record straight with these people, but know this, you are not alone

[Osiris]

Mat eits post like yours above which done help anyone

If you havent noticed wherever you go int he world you will find ppl who like to think they know it all

Now im not claiming to know it all, I just like to see things from both perspectives

but some of you guys are a pretty poor excuse for intelligent beings

I mean raid refuses to see any benefits of Palladium and Tom doesnt want to here any disadvantages or even acknowledge that there is any information on it yet

you people would find you could learn alot more if you would stop being so blind by your own pride, and actually read other peoples posts. No one said you had to agree with everyone but theres been alot of good points on this topic which has been ignored and overshadowed by peoples ignorance.

Some of you people need to stop taking things so personally on here, if you get so upset by some posts on a forum, I would hate to see you in your physical environments when you have difficulties dealing with people, especially those who disagree with you.

[Glowstick]

By your logic tom, There musnt really be a Windows Longhorn because Microsoft havent had a press release telling you what it is and what exactly will be in it.

Au contraire to Palladium, there has been proof of the existance of Longhorn. Remember the M3 build?

And about those n00bs, it ****es me off, but then again, everytime I see those, I need to fight them tho I don't want to. Like an addiction. lol

--edit--

The last sentence wasnt meant to land into the quote.

Edited December 10, 2002 by Tom Servo

[Glowstick]

That article on Activewin doesn't sound negative either. It even states that they will allow other OSes to boot on the box and all. Nothing in there that contradicts their whitepaper.

[Daniel F. Administrators]

OK guys,

lets all calm down a bit eh? Less of the hostility & flamming/swearing

(this is ur only warning ;))

[Glowstick]

Some of you people need to stop taking things so personally on here, if you get so upset by some posts on a forum, I would hate to see you in your physical environments when you have difficulties dealing with people, especially those who disagree with you.

You wouldn't see so much idiocy in the real world, because you aren't "anonymous" there, so they can't claim any BS like they want to in the outside world unlike they can on the Internet. Also let alone that I couldn't beat someone up for talking crap or flaming me on the Internet. Thats why people in reallife are way easier to go with.

[raid517]

Well all this talk of stupidity and n00bs is pretty rich, how stupid is it to call someone a n00b you don't even know? For your information I have been using the internet and writing to BBs boards since 1992. Which at nearly 13 years is older than many of the people posting their 'opinions' here. I am now sitting typing on the 7th home built computer I own and use computers on a daily basis in almost everything I do. So calling me a n00b, or other people noobs when you know nothing about them is to say the least, a pretty dumb thing to do.

In any case I really don't get it, all I said is you should try to read more about this. That you refuse to do this is ok by me, but the fact that you seem to want to crucify someone for suggesting that it might be a good idea, is pretty damn whack.

If you refuse to believe the abundant available evidence, if you refuse to acknowledge, or even look for any evidence, then there is nothing more I can do. I served my purpose here, just remember when next year Palladium/Longhorn is released that you tried to make those who warned you look stupid for even daring to mention it. I am 100 percent certain that it isn't me who will feel very, very silly.

One thing you might like to consider is that this technology is supposed to be 'opt in' or voluntary by nature. Your computer will be shipped with Palladium switched off by default. But the difficulty will come when more and more companies, software developers, music studios, movie developers tell you it must be switched on in order to be able to view/use their media. So in reality there will be no opt out. Only an opt in... If you opt out, none of your new media will function correctly. But of course some people here obviously feel they know better. Well what can I say? Good luck to you. But when it does happen to you, and you can't play that hot new movie you downloaded, or use your favourite free software application any more, or when a web page blocks your Linux machine from viewing a page because your browser isn't palladium enabled, remember the conversation you had here. I will laugh very hard when I hear all your lame protests then, by which time it will be way to late to do anything at all.

Q

[ryanmcv]

Okay, we were all n00bs at one point or the other, so lets take this down a knotch. :)

[Osiris]

Raid mate, you got some good points okay, yes the technology does have the ability to be abused, and evtnually its a possibility that as you say movies will require you to have palladium enabled, obviously thats in part its intent, as we all know the basis of palladium is digital rights now MS has said it wont enforce that on mp3s etc, but other compaines yes they could.

But realistically with the exception of corporations, because this system will protect them from copyright lawsuits basically, if the technology turned out to be this who the hell is gonna use it, really, if that was the case who do you think would buy it ? Microsoft is huge, but just because they say jump doesnt mean the world changes overnight.

I mean really I dont agree with alot of the negative hype here, but not even me, a huge MS supporter generally is going to go jump and buy a system that I cant run my Mp3s on unless they have been certified, and copyprotection enabled etc etc, no one whos ever downloaded an mp3 would tolerate that. And Intel, AMD, Microsoft they arent stupid, they arent going to invest millions upon millions of dollars on a system which users wont tolerate.

The only real issues with this technology are;

1. Microsoft controls all the keys

2. Can 3rd party palladium programmers force it down our throat.

3. How much information if any will Palladium actually send out to MS or other Palladium servers.

Out of all the reviews and articles and pdf files ive been reading over the last 3 days they seem like the 3 big issues concerning ppl.

[Glowstick]

If you opt out, none of your new media will function correctly. But of course some people here obviously feel they know better. Well what can I say? Good luck to you. But when it does happen to you, and you can't play that hot new movie you downloaded, or use your favourite free software application any more, or when a web page blocks your Linux machine from viewing a page because your browser isn't palladium enabled, remember the conversation you had here.

1) There are no "Palladium-Webservers" planned.

2) Non-Pd applications work fine on Pd systems.

3) Media downloaded and stored in the unprotected areas is accessible for everyone.

But then again...

I <<dont bypass swear filter its there for a reason -Admin>> RESIGN.

Since some of you paranoid nutheads (mainly raid tho) seem to enjoy pulling stupid conspiracies out of their butts, have fun with it.

Bah.

--edit: typos

Edited December 11, 2002 by Voodoo

[werejag]

yes we should drop the stupid conspiracies becuase what ever microsoft comes up with will be a lot more

[kairon]

Well all this talk of stupidity and n00bs is pretty rich, how stupid is it to call someone a n00b you don't even know? For your information I have been using the internet and writing to BBs boards since 1992. Which at nearly 13 years is older than many of the people posting their 'opinions' here. I am now sitting typing on the 7th home built computer I own and use computers on a daily basis in almost everything I do. So calling me a n00b, or other people noobs when you know nothing about them is to say the least, a pretty dumb thing to do.

In any case I really don't get it, all I said is you should try to read more about this. That you refuse to do this is ok by me, but the fact that you seem to want to crucify someone for suggesting that it might be a good idea, is pretty damn whack.

If you refuse to believe the abundant available evidence, if you refuse to acknowledge, or even look for any evidence, then there is nothing more I can do. I served my purpose here, just remember when next year Palladium/Longhorn is released that you tried to make those who warned you look stupid for even daring to mention it. I am 100 percent certain that it isn't me who will feel very, very silly.

One thing you might like to consider is that this technology is supposed to be 'opt in' or voluntary by nature. Your computer will be shipped with Palladium switched off by default. But the difficulty will come when more and more companies, software developers, music studios, movie developers tell you it must be switched on in order to be able to view/use their media. So in reality there will be no opt out. Only an opt in... If you opt out, none of your new media will function correctly. But of course some people here obviously feel they know better. Well what can I say? Good luck to you. But when it does happen to you, and you can't play that hot new movie you downloaded, or use your favourite free software application any more, or when a web page blocks your Linux machine from viewing a page because your browser isn't palladium enabled, remember the conversation you had here. I will laugh very hard when I hear all your lame protests then, by which time it will be way to late to do anything at all.

Q

Ok, before you just sounded like a nut just making stuff up, but come on, now it just sounds like your making up things as you go along to prove a point. Seriously, everything we know about Palladium now, drop it, cause you might be getting your hopes up a little too high for what Microsoft has in store, come back when they do that, if you believe everything you hear then your obviously paranoid.

[raid517]

Well as crazy as you think I am, I think you are even crazier for even refusing to consider the possibilities of what this could mean. Am I parannoid? No not really, personally I don't give a rat's a*s what happens. As far as I can see if the sh*t does hit the fan you will deserve everything that happens to you. I will simply give up messing with computers - and take up a new hobby like car repair or something. I don't think though that it will get that bad, not right away. MS has stated that Palladeum is envisaged as a 12 year strategy. There is no forced adoption as such, but the catch 22 will increasingly become, "You need palladeum enabled to run this application..." How long will it be before more and more applications give you this error message? In any case I think all our time is being wasted here. Mine in trying to convince you that it is at least worthwile being aware of the potential pitfalls - and you in tring to convince me that I'm crazy and I deamed the word Palladeum and the phiosophy behind it up myself. Consider at least, if there are no real plans for implimentation - if it will be an empty and unused technology - why include it. Why even invent it? Why not just stick with things the way they are? The anwer is obvious, it has been invented and will be included because it will be used. Technologies are not brought to the market unless there are sound commercial reasons to do so.

And in answer to the question why would MS do this when they know it will put many people off the idea of downloading pirated/illegal content (although this is by no means just about pirated content) is that quite simply they feel they have a lot more to gain than they have to loose by making people pay for all their digital content. If they cut the pirates out, then hey, what have they got to loose? They don't make any money from the pirates anyway.

My only concern is, or was (since I'm beginning in the face of present company to care much less now) what this might mean for genuinely free software and operating systems - and for competition in general. I remain concerned about this, although no one is forcing you to care if you don't want to. As for all the cursing and foul language, well it rather just proves my point about the qualities of some of the people who are posting. As firmly as they believe me to be a paranoid nut (odd that suggesting one should 'read' should make one seem like a nut) I will always consider them a bunch of ignorant, hillbilly egg sucking yokels. So we will neve see eye to eye - and only time will tell who is right. Maybe in 5 years or so when the full implications of this technology become apparent, you will do as you suggested - and worry about it when it happens. But by that time of course, as far as changing anything goes, it will simply be too late.

I think on both sides this agument is unwinnable, we will all in a sense have to 'wait and see' - but at least I in the mean time will do what little I can to alert those who do care to the potential dangers. If that makes me a horrid or crazy person then so be it, I'd rather be crazy my way than crazy yours.

Q

[Osiris]

Well ive just finished reading over 12 different sources from; Microsofts whitepaper and FAQ, to pressspass interviews witht he business unti manager, to reviews that have nothing but negative things to say, to reviews which outline good possibilities, to the patents from the Trusted OS.

I have to say I honestly think Palladium will change computing. THis encryption technology does allow for some great things to be done. As I honestly dont think all the bad things outlined in the professors essay would ever happen. MS is investing its trust into this project, if this turns out to completely invade privacy as some mention, Obviously MS, intel, and AMD would all be damaged by that publicity.

I think MS could truly use this technology as a way to correct all the embarrasments of outlook express and there 100 other security holes. I mean there a business too, everytime they have to admit to another security flaw, it doesnt make them feel all warm and happy inside its an embarrasment for them. So I think we could be seeing some descent windows security with this baby, but thats an option not a fact, and if we go off past history who knows. Anyway I think I will compile an essay on Palladium, outlining everything from the advantages to the disadvantages, using the patent, MS info, and interviews with Jauorz and other people. This will be based on facts, not my opinions. To clear up the air a bit for ppl, any one think that would not be a good idea?

[raid517]

I'm certainly not disputing that there could be positive security benefits. But if you do write your essay outlining the benefits will you make it a balanced essay and include the potential for abuse also? For every benefit it seems there is a potential for infringement on individual rights also. It goes back to what someone else said before, about if you want security you have to sacrifice some liberties. But I'll stick with Ben Franklin, I think anyone who is prepared to give up liberty for security probably doesn't deserve any liberty. So no doubt soon enough they will get exactly what they do deserve.

However it is nice to see someone who is at least prepared to do a little more research on this. Research and reading are always good... :)

Q

Ps and for people who keep going on about the professors comments on this subject, I think you are missing the point. Even I think this is a little extreme. But nonetheless the potential for this to happen would be there - and as I have said many times before now, why include a potential when there is no use for it? Business doesn't work that way - unless of course you you plan at some stage in the future to put that potential to use...

Edited December 12, 2002 by raid517

[Osiris]

Yeah of course mate, theres no point only explaining and outlining one side to an argument, no one can be properly informed of a subject, if they only get half the story.

But I do think some of the potentially abuses of the system outlined in the professors essay are pretty extreme. But im definitely going to cover both sides of the coin, and yes it definitely pays to do some research on things like this. Anyway might be done tonight or tomorrow eitherway I hope this will help clear the air for alot of ppl, and perhaps help other neowinians who are wondering what were talking about hehe.

Anyway I will post a link to it, when im done.

[sys32]

The currently leaked version of Longhorn was most likely just used as a presentation to the board to give them an idea of where things are going. It's so incredibly slow i wanted to shoot myself when i installed it. I have a 50meg package of Longhorn screenies I made if someone wants to host it for me. It also includes the new out of the box experience for longhorn theme song and the actual longhorn theme.

[ThunderRiver]

Dude! We released longhorn just for your own enjoyment..not to fight like poop..

And yes, this release is to show a bit progress of how lh is doing. Of course it is not perfect, but it does get better in newer builds which is obvious not accessible to the public yet. Like always, patience is needed, and things will get better.

-ThunderRiver

[EverDawn]

I thought it was a neat toy and has promise

[mxp]

when is this set to come out????