One finger salute to Vista

[Robgig1088]

I suppose youre saying that Windows has never fouled and that it encourages competition? Not on your life, buddy. One recent example of how windows tries to dominate is by threatening to charge computer manufacturers (dell, HP, etc) more money if they didn't ship ALL of their computers with Windows. How about the ActiveX in IE business back in 2001. Your myopic allegiance to such an operating system is sickening. Do you see many IT professionals using Windows? Not a chance. The windows Development Chief even said in 2004 "I would buy a Mac if i didn't work for Microsoft." and that it had lost sight of its consumers needs. Ouch.

Im just trying to say that I personally dont choose to give money to a power-hungry monopoly. If you choose to fuel the giant, thats fine by me. For those of you with an open mind, I would really recommend linux. Its a great piece of software and a great tool for anyone. thats all. no need for a flame war here.

Edited December 25, 2006 by Robgig1088

[Stebet]

Do you see many IT professionals using Windows?

Actually, i see an overwhelming majority of IT professionals using Windows.

[Robgig1088]

I see many who use windows hating it. I also see alot who use Linux. I don't hear many say "Man, Windows is the most secure and easy-to-use operating system anywhere! Thanks, Microsoft!!"

[Menge]

yes! yes! "Myopic"!!! perfect definition!!!

quick definition list:

"Embrace, extend, extinguish": acquire the owner; modify the standard to something... err.... not compliant with the previous standard; call it new and your own and hope it sticks... if it doesn't... aw well... it wasn't good enough anyway.

"Ext3": default filesystem for the most common linux distributions nowadays (specially after the Reiser murder case). not lame, but very versatile and which performs well, hence the reason it's the default operating system.

"ReiserFS": definetly not a clone of NTFS given the fact that this FS has metadata and block journaling built in, not to mention the fact that it has features built in to avoid fragmentation.

merry christmas everyone :)

[AltecXP]

I used to be disapointed in Vista, but after a week of using it it is now the main OS on my laptop and both desktops. I have some small compatability problems but it is just the programs that need to be updated not a Vista problem.

[ATLien_0]

Everyone has different opinions which is normal, some may just be comfortable with Vista because they like the new while others like to keep things minimal like in xp or 2000. And others may like having more control of their system with linux, and of course others may prefer osx.

[Yogurth]

Well here it is finally a scientific document on why Vista is slower than any other previous Microsoft Operating System. Don't skipp the reading of entire text, some very well founded info and insights what Vista is..a DRM machine built not to offer speed but copyright protection. While I have nothing against copyright protection You will see how it is designed in Vista and why should it concern You as potential user.

"Report from the University of Auckland in New Zealand.

"Peter Gutmann's report describes the pernicious DRM built into Vista and required by MS for approval of hardware and drivers," said INQ reader Brad Steffler, MD, who brought the report to our attention. "As a physician who uses PCs for image review before I perform surgery, this situation is intolerable. It is also intolerable for me as a medical school professor as I will have to switch to a MAC or a Linux PC. These draconian dicta just might kill the PC as we know it."

"Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in order to provide content protection for so-called "premium content", typically HD data from Blu-Ray and HD-DVD sources. Providing this protection incurs considerable costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical support overhead, and hardware and software cost," says Gutmann on his homepage.

"These issues affect not only users of Vista but the entire PC industry, since the effects of the protection measures extend to cover all hardware and software that will ever come into contact with Vista, even if it's not used directly with Vista (for example hardware in a Macintosh computer or on a Linux server). This document analyses the cost involved in Vista's content protection, and the collateral damage that this incurs throughout the computer industry."

Entire report:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

[Robgig1088]

Well here it is finally a scientific document on why Vista is slower than any other previous Microsoft Operating System. Don't skipp the reading of entire text, some very well founded info and insights what Vista is..a DRM machine built not to offer speed but copyright protection. While I have nothing against copyright protection You will see how it is designed in Vista and why should it concern You as potential user.

"Report from the University of Auckland in New Zealand.

"Peter Gutmann's report describes the pernicious DRM built into Vista and required by MS for approval of hardware and drivers," said INQ reader Brad Steffler, MD, who brought the report to our attention. "As a physician who uses PCs for image review before I perform surgery, this situation is intolerable. It is also intolerable for me as a medical school professor as I will have to switch to a MAC or a Linux PC. These draconian dicta just might kill the PC as we know it."

"Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in order to provide content protection for so-called "premium content", typically HD data from Blu-Ray and HD-DVD sources. Providing this protection incurs considerable costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical support overhead, and hardware and software cost," says Gutmann on his homepage.

"These issues affect not only users of Vista but the entire PC industry, since the effects of the protection measures extend to cover all hardware and software that will ever come into contact with Vista, even if it's not used directly with Vista (for example hardware in a Macintosh computer or on a Linux server). This document analyses the cost involved in Vista's content protection, and the collateral damage that this incurs throughout the computer industry."

Entire report:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

Oh my god..... Please tell me its a lie.....

[1Frothy]

I'm no scientist or researcher - its very clear that Microsoft is strangling itself by DRM.

Windows Vienna has better be outstanding, otherwise its either Mac or Linux for me.

-

Let me just add that I'm delighted that Vista is Allchin's last hurrah, Windows needs help and I am confident that Steven Sinofsky is what Windows needs.

Roll on Windows Vienna.

Edited December 25, 2006 by Geekb0rg

[Beastage]

I suppose youre saying that Windows has never fouled and that it encourages competition? Not on your life, buddy. One recent example of how windows tries to dominate is by threatening to charge computer manufacturers (dell, HP, etc) more money if they didn't ship ALL of their computers with Windows. How about the ActiveX in IE business back in 2001. Your myopic allegiance to such an operating system is sickening. Do you see many IT professionals using Windows? Not a chance. The windows Development Chief even said in 2004 "I would buy a Mac if i didn't work for Microsoft." and that it had lost sight of its consumers needs. Ouch.

Im just trying to say that I personally dont choose to give money to a power-hungry monopoly. If you choose to fuel the giant, thats fine by me. For those of you with an open mind, I would really recommend linux. Its a great piece of software and a great tool for anyone. thats all. no need for a flame war here.

Working for a big ISP here, most of our working enviroment is based on MS products, no bugs, no errors, no system crashes, quick to response and easy to use and don't tell me that our computer people don't know whats best for the company.

My ISP prolly pays good money for it and for a good reason, it works excellent

[Long]

People bitched about XP and said "Oh i'm sticking with 98 " XP sucks too childish, no drivers blah blah blah and now look at them. they are using XP and are bitching about vista... few years they will use vista and bitch about vienna.. and the cycle goes on...

[zhangm Supervisor]

Does it seem the least bit hypocritical for someone to bash Microsoft and promote Linux in every single post, while constantly begging people to have an open mind?

[phantasmorph]

Does it seem the least bit hypocritical for someone to bash Microsoft and promote Linux in every single post, while constantly begging people to have an open mind?

But you don't mind a Microsoft Employee talking out his a** and feebly attempting to refute every point made, under the guise as just another forum poster?

[Spooky]

After reading that whole thing, and it was interesting too, its not true. The clue is in the section "Denial-of-Service via Driver Revocation" where he specifically states;

"Once a weakness is found in a particular driver or device, that driver will

have its signature revoked by Microsoft, which means that it will cease to

function (details on this are a bit vague here, presumably some minimum

functionality like generic 640x480 VGA support will still be available in

order for the system to boot). ....... but I've heard mention of multimillion

dollar fines and embargoes on further shipment of devices alongside the driver

revocation mentioned above."

This is not true and is not based upon any scientific testing or fact what so ever. The author also tries to qualify this, by adding a standard 'give the benefit of the doubt' statement of '...details are sketchy...' and '...details on this are a bit vague here...' and then tries to raise apprehension levels to re-enforce belief by adding a standard dooms day sceinario that appeals to the personal context by stating "...but I've heard mention of multimillion dollar fines and embargoes on further shipment of devices alongside the driver

revocation mentioned above....". The author also ignores the fact that un-signed drivers can be used in Vista also (yes they can, i know it for a fact cause i'm using some un-signed drivers) and devices continue to function just fine if the driver is written correctly, heck, one can even produce unsigned drivers for Vista by using the new SDK (and WDDK) from MS.

The author indicated statements by ATI and others that may be taken totally out of context to re-enforce the authors views and attempt to add credibility to the writing. By including these statements by reputable companies the author implies that what is in the article is true and implies a certain personal relationship with, and insider information from, these companies.

This article does not offer one piece of verifiable proof. The author doesn't tell you several very important facts simply because they are not in line with the thrust of what he would have you believe and would undermine the credibility of his article and so called 'scientific' research. While there are some very small grains of truth in the article, these grains of truth have nothing to do with what the article is trying to say, these grains of truth mostly consist of something along the lines of 'DRM exists' well...Duh! of course it does, but these grains of truth establish a trust bond belief in the what the author is saying is true. However, what makes this article totally BS is the author has played to a persons natural inclination to believe something that can personally affect them and forgotten that what he oulines is down-right illegal (disabling parts of your system and violating your legal rights to ownership). Unless our systems of laws is now decided by MS and other companies then what the article offers as proof is total BS.

This whole article is carefully crafted to portray authoritative truth by simply taking advantage of human nature's natural inclination to believe by stating grains of truth then adding in authority and half truths to re-enforce that this is a scientifically auhtoritative research and thus must be the truth. Mary Poppins did the same thing with 'A spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down', sugar is sweet and palatable so it must be true that the medicine will go down eaisier. The same trick is used here, the appeal to human nature that "well, this one part is true so the rest must be true also because its from an authoritative source". Its the same trick used by snake oil salesmen for centuries.

I am not trying to defend Vista or MS, and I don't like the DRM thing myself, its just that when the BS meter reaches 100 its time to point out the fact that it is BS, especially when so many read this stuff and want to believe it.

Well here it is finally a scientific document on why Vista is slower than any other previous Microsoft Operating System. Don't skipp the reading of entire text, some very well founded info and insights what Vista is..a DRM machine built not to offer speed but copyright protection. While I have nothing against copyright protection You will see how it is designed in Vista and why should it concern You as potential user.

"Report from the University of Auckland in New Zealand.

"Peter Gutmann's report describes the pernicious DRM built into Vista and required by MS for approval of hardware and drivers," said INQ reader Brad Steffler, MD, who brought the report to our attention. "As a physician who uses PCs for image review before I perform surgery, this situation is intolerable. It is also intolerable for me as a medical school professor as I will have to switch to a MAC or a Linux PC. These draconian dicta just might kill the PC as we know it."

"Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in order to provide content protection for so-called "premium content", typically HD data from Blu-Ray and HD-DVD sources. Providing this protection incurs considerable costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical support overhead, and hardware and software cost," says Gutmann on his homepage.

"These issues affect not only users of Vista but the entire PC industry, since the effects of the protection measures extend to cover all hardware and software that will ever come into contact with Vista, even if it's not used directly with Vista (for example hardware in a Macintosh computer or on a Linux server). This document analyses the cost involved in Vista's content protection, and the collateral damage that this incurs throughout the computer industry."

Entire report:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

Edited December 25, 2006 by Spooky

[AJerman]

But you don't mind a Microsoft Employee talking out his a** and feebly attempting to refute every point made, under the guise as just another forum poster?

What the hell are you talking about? Since when is he "under the guise as just another forum poster"? First off, he IS just another forum poster, and on top of that, he's never made it secret that he works for MS. Just because he doesn't end every single post in "I WORK FOR MICROSOFT!!!" (Or "M$" as you may prefer), doesn't mean he's trying to hide.

And on top of that, I didn't read this whole post, really only read the first and last page, because I'm tired of hearing this same old crap, but what Brandon said on the first page is 99% of the time the case. Driver support right now for Vista isn't all that hot. Because of that, you get a slow system and crashes. I have RC 1 or whatever Audigy drivers right now, hacked beta nvidia platform drivers to get my RAID working, and a few other things. Now my system runs great because the drivers happened to work well even though they aren't drivers for RTM, however my system could VERY easily become unstable using hacked up drivers like that.

If you don't have a clue about what you're talking about when you accuse Vista of being horrible, then don't get offended when those of us who do call you out. I have... I think 1 consistant crash in Vista, however it doesn't really affect anything other than popping up an error report. After I get my driver situation sorted out I'll re-evaluate that. If it runs fine for me, then it's obviously not just Vista that sucks, or else it would suck for me too. It's your system lacking drivers to allow it to run stable.

Edit: By the way, when I say "you" I mean all the people in general who bash Vista for being unstable and crappy, not just one person. Only the first paragraph was reply to the quote.

[Robgig1088]

After reading that whole thing, and it was interesting too, its not true. The clue is in the section "Denial-of-Service via Driver Revocation" where he specifically states;

"Once a weakness is found in a particular driver or device, that driver will

have its signature revoked by Microsoft, which means that it will cease to

function (details on this are a bit vague here, presumably some minimum

functionality like generic 640x480 VGA support will still be available in

order for the system to boot). ....... but I've heard mention of multimillion

dollar fines and embargoes on further shipment of devices alongside the driver

revocation mentioned above."

This is not true and is not based upon any scientific testing or fact what so ever. The author also tries to qualify this, by adding a standard 'give the benefit of the doubt' statement of '...details are sketchy...' and '...details on this are a bit vague here...' and then tries to raise apprehension levels to re-enforce belief by adding a standard dooms day sceinario that appeals to the personal context by stating "...but I've heard mention of multimillion dollar fines and embargoes on further shipment of devices alongside the driver

revocation mentioned above....". The author also ignores the fact that un-signed drivers can be used in Vista also (yes they can, i know it for a fact cause i'm using some un-signed drivers) and devices continue to function just fine if the driver is written correctly, heck, one can even produce unsigned drivers for Vista by using the new SDK (and WDDK) from MS.

The author indicated statements by ATI and others that may be taken totally out of context to re-enforce the authors views and attempt to add credibility to the writing. By including these statements by reputable companies the author implies that what is in the article is true and implies a certain personal relationshipwith, and insider information from, these companies.

This article does not offer one piece of verifiable proof. The author doesn't tell you several very inportant facts simply because they are not in line with the thrust of what he would have you believe and would undermine the credibility of his article and so called 'scientific' research. While there are some very small grains of truth in the article, these grains of truth have nothing to do with what the article is trying to say, these grains of truth mostly consist of something along the lines of 'DRM exists' well...Duh! of course it does, but these grains of truth establish a trust bond belief in the what the author is saying is true. However, what makes this article totally BS is the author has played to a persons natural inclination to believe something that can personally affect them and forgotten that what he oulines is down-right illegal (disabling parts of your system and violating your legal rights to ownership). Unless our systems of laws is now decided by MS and other companies then what the article offers as proof is total BS.

This whole article is carefully crafted to portray authoritative truth by simply taking advantage of human nature's natural inclination to believe by stating grains of truth then adding in authority and half truths to re-enfoce, that this is a scientifically auhtoritative research and thus must be the truth. Mary Poppins did the same thing with 'A spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down', sugar is sweet and palatable so it must be true that the medicine will go down eaisier. The same trick is used here, the appeal to human nature that "well, this one part is true so the rest must be true also because its from an authoritative source"

I am not trying to defend Vista or MS, its just that when the BS meter reaches 100 its time to point out the fact that it is BS, especially when so many read this stuff and want to believe it.

wow so he didnt get a detail right. If you read it, you would see that it was a personal email. Of course theres going to be some inaccuracies. He even said not to pay attention to that. Anyway, Vista is destroying the world of computers and freedom as we know it and personally I am not going to tolerate this.

[Spooky]

It wasn't just 'a detail' , he didn't get anything right, period. OK, "He even said not to pay attention to that", this is the exact same thing as saying "Well, I heard that..." as part of a rumor spreading mechanism. The very first thing a snake oil salesman will try to do is to make you believe that its you that made up your own mind to buy something, and one of the ways they do this is by basically saying "hey, don't believe me, try it for yourself and find out", which explots human nature because the persons natural inclination is to think "If he's bold enough to challenge me to try it myself then he must be confident the thing works, and if he's that confident then it must work or be true." ...The statement where the article indicates 'not to pay attention to that' is akin to the Wizard of Oz 'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".

By all means, don't tolerate DRM, I don't like it either, but if anything is going to be done you can't base your actions on what snake oil salesmen dish out. So you said "and personally I am not going to tolerate this"...but can you point out one thing, with documented proof that is scientifically objective and credible, that substantiates your statement of "Anyway, Vista is destroying the world of computers and freedom as we know it and personally I am not going to tolerate this." ?, just one thing that is scientifically objective and credible to support your statement? Guess what, I can't either. The point i'm making is that if anything is going to be done, it isn't going to be done because someone said so, its going to be done when the problem is defined, documented, and then proven, in a scientifically objective and credible manner. This article doesn't do any of that and only adds to the confusion and hype and plays upon the emotions of others, it actually decreases the effectivness of any effort to resolve the effect that DRM has on our rights and freedoms.

wow so he didnt get a detail right. If you read it, you would see that it was a personal email. Of course theres going to be some inaccuracies. He even said not to pay attention to that. Anyway, Vista is destroying the world of computers and freedom as we know it and personally I am not going to tolerate this.

Edited December 25, 2006 by Spooky

[Robgig1088]

Do you honestly think Microsoft cares about any of its users? How about this. Windows should earn its reputation as the leader in software by the quality of products it produces. Thats what google did and they crushed yahoo.

Edited December 25, 2006 by Robgig1088

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

Do you honestly think Microsoft cares about any of its users? How about this. Windows earns its reputation as the leader in software by the quality of products it produces. Thats what google did and they crushed yahoo.

Rob... it's Christmas. Stop preaching about the values of Linux and how Microsoft are inherently evil (which they're not) on a forum with mostly Windows-oriented users, have a drink or two and relax?

It is zealots like yourself who make the Free/Open Source Software movement look rather silly and unprofessional, I'm afraid.

[Robgig1088]

I'm not trying to be a scrooge and im not trying to be a zealot... Perhaps im just too picky about how my computer works and how much freedom I have over what I do with it... It just bugs me when people only read what they want to read. oh well.. not my concern I suppose (unless vista makes hardware cost more)

have a great christmas :)

[freak_power]

It's so easy to crash any windows app on Vista...or get freaking not responding screen. I tested Vista on four different AMD/Intel platform...and this is a crap just like Windows ME was...

[Linkinfamous]

It's so easy to crash any windows app on Vista...or get freaking not responding screen. I tested Vista on four different AMD/Intel platform...and this is a crap just like Windows ME was...

You're either using really crappy software, an old beta, not trying out 'compatibility' mode, or aren't very good with computers.

Though I've only needed compatibility mode on one piece of software, and only in RC1 and below...Solidworks 2006 wouldn't run without being run in Windows 2000 mode for some reason. Since RC2 it's just worked fine without compatibility mode, though.

Seriously. I haven't had a notable compatibility or stability problem with Vista RTM other than Nero and divx fighting each other to the death (Since then been resolved.)

Edited December 25, 2006 by MioTheGreat

[1Frothy]

But you don't mind a Microsoft Employee talking out his a** and feebly attempting to refute every point made, under the guise as just another forum poster?

:laugh: and very very true at the same time. These people seem to believe so strongly in what they have released that they are blinded by glaring issues and complaints - instead of taking these complaints and working hard to fix the damn issues this Microsoft guy just goes out to prove that customers are wrong. Insane.

[freak_power]

You're either using really crappy software, an old beta, not trying out 'compatibility' mode, or aren't very good with computers.

Though I've only needed compatibility mode on one piece of software, and only in RC1 and below...Solidworks 2006 wouldn't run without being run in Windows 2000 mode for some reason. Since RC2 it's just worked fine without compatibility mode, though.

Seriously. I haven't had a notable compatibility or stability problem with Vista RTM other than Nero and divx fighting each other to the death (Since then been resolved.)

Nope it's just that you're not able to reproduce any problem. Go start installing something and at the same import cookie to your internet explorer :no:

You're going to wait good couple of minutes...IE will be pretty dead (not responding)

[xoq100.]

I only had one problem with the vista beta, a game called warrock just died. Apart from that everything was dandy. The only reason I went back to XP was simply because I didn't like having an 'unstable' beta OS on my one and only puter... When the price is reasonable for me. I will welcomes vista with open arms. Alot say vista will die like ME did. I disagree, Vista will be nothing like ME, ME was a poor attempt at making some more $.