Microsoft Starts Banning 360s on LIVE - MS Confirms

By OhMuffin
in Xbox

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Heyo

Posted
Posted
You're right MS doesnt run the country. Our government does.

The same government that defines the laws & states that clearly worded contracts are legally binding UNLESS they violate an already standing law.

Microsoft DOES have the right to decide how you use their internet service.

If you violate the CLEAR terms that they define for you then it's YOUR fault.

Any lawyer would just laugh at you, unless they wanted your money. There's not one chance in hell that you'd win, but you'd still be broke by the end of it.

Ah you absolutely sure on that??? Quite a few people here seem to think MS does. Who can say nowdays anyway? LOL ;)

Any road, you have a sadly simplistic take on contract law. You are missing something else.

MS (or any other party for that matter) can not take rights away from you (as provided by the law) without fairness or without some sort of compensation- see exlusion contracts in work agreements if you wish to 'learn up'.

If I dispute that I am being treated fairly (as defined by the laws of this country) that are in the terms of the contract then I can take this dispute up later in court.

I am not sure whether I would be laughed out as you suggest, but given I do seem to have the right to modify hardware for the pupose of making 'backups' in this country I may dispute otherwise.

You can dispute the TOS before you agree to it, but once you agree to it then that's it, and you're saying that you agree with them and you will not dispute them.

Matie! :)

Do me a favour and stop just making this up as you go... you are just wasting my time and everyone elses.

Look, I can sign a contract now and then during the term of the contract take the other party to court to dispute the contract. This happens all the time with work agreements (again see exclusion contracts) where people will take the contract to court as being 'unfair' and try to have those clauses removed post 'agreement'. Soon as it goes to court the judge decides if the clauses are fair and you have been properly compensated for forgoing your rights.

In the example I gave you, the female isn't just going to go... "Hmmm well let me see... I have to take this huge multinational to court, win, then I can click the OK button on the agreement and play on LIVE".

You are just being silly about it. Give it up.

Grand Master

gigapixels Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted
Matie! :)

Do me a favour and stop just making this up as you go... you are just wasting my time and everyone elses.

Look, I can sign a contract now and then during the term of the contract take the other party to court to dispute the contract. This happens all the time with work agreements (again see exclusion contracts) where people will take the contract to court as being 'unfair' and try to have those clauses removed post 'agreement'. Soon as it goes to court the judge decides if the clauses are fair and you have been properly compensated for forgoing your rights.

In the example I gave you, the female isn't just going to go... "Hmmm well let me see... I have to take this huge multinational to court, win, then I can click the OK button on the agreement and play on LIVE".

You are just being silly about it. Give it up.

I am going to give it up, but not because you said so. I'm tired of your arrogance already, and it's obvious you won't listen to anybody else because you believe whatever you say is always right. Have fun!

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HannibalSmith

Posted
Posted
Then they woud take you to court for pirating 360 games, who do you think woud win? :p

is their detection method 100% accurate, does it work properly on every single Xbox360

either a lot of people are lying who have had their unmodded 360's banned or its not 100%

in order to be prosecuted MS would have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that their detection method was flawless

i'd like to see them do that :laugh:

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Heyo

Posted
Posted
^ AFAIK, You're allowed to make backups? Yes. Allowed to modify hardware? No. Allowed to play with a downloaded/illegally backed up copy? No.

That's the problem. MS doesn't provide a legit way for us to backup our 360 software, and their efforts at restricting (any) backups may restrict our rights in certain countries. We are debating whether their heavy-handed actions could be disputed in court.

I am going to give it up, but not because you said so. I'm tired of your arrogance already, and it's obvious you won't listen to anybody else because you believe whatever you say is always right. Have fun!

Sorry pixels if I come off that way. I just get kindof angry nowdays when people seem to think these companies can walk all over them and we are just supposed to smile and take it because we clicked the OK button on some stupid dialog box full of ten-plus pages of indesiphrable legalise crap.

I think you have more rights than you seem to be aware of, and are just making too many assumptions about what you can and can not do.

The law is hardly as black and white as what is being portrayed here. It is very grey, hence why there are so many lawyers willing to take our money... :)

Enthusiast

serenityrule1515

Posted
Posted

frankly im getting sick and tired of Microsoft...not only are all of their products a P.O.S...they still have the nerve to charge massive amounts of cash for it.....thats y i decided to hell with the 360& vista......i went for Lunix and PS3...i dont need MS...they're just a bunch of F'n morons that sit on their ass and make bulls*** laws

call me wot u want...but im not gonna sit back and let MS play my hand..no sir! stand up..and fight back those bast****

i fully disagree with the whole banning law on Live...and if i had a 360 i'd mod it as much as i like...to hell with em...my money= my 360

if u want pirated 360 games..thats my business....and i'll do it to!

so a message of hope to all who fall under the overpowering shadow of microsoft, stop being bullied and stop wasting your money....MS are just greedy pigs with an insatiable appetite and won't stop unless they get dropkicked in the ovaries!

yes im smug...im running lunix on ma ps3..and lovin everyday of it!... free online play..ha! :laugh:

Mentor

Typhon

Posted
Posted
That's the problem. MS doesn't provide a legit way for us to backup our 360 software, and their efforts at restricting (any) backups may restrict our rights in certain countries. We are debating whether their heavy-handed actions could be disputed in court.

Sorry pixels if I come off that way. I just get kindof angry nowdays when people seem to think these companies can walk all over them and we are just supposed to smile and take it because we clicked the OK button on some stupid dialog box full of ten-plus pages of indesiphrable legalise crap.

I think you have more rights than you seem to be aware of, and are just making too many assumptions about what you can and can not do.

The law is hardly as black and white as what is being portrayed here. It is very grey, hence why there are so many lawyers willing to take our money... :)

Best Buy offers a disk replacement plan. Anyways that still dose not make it right. Just be care full with the disk it is not that hard.

frankly im getting sick and tired of Microsoft...not only are all of their products a P.O.S...they still have the nerve to charge massive amounts of cash for it.....thats y i decided to hell with the 360& vista......i went for Lunix and PS3...i dont need MS...they're just a bunch of F'n morons that sit on their ass and make bulls*** laws

call me wot u want...but im not gonna sit back and let MS play my hand..no sir! stand up..and fight back those bast****

i fully disagree with the whole banning law on Live...and if i had a 360 i'd mod it as much as i like...to hell with em...my money= my 360

if u want pirated 360 games..thats my business....and i'll do it to!

so a message of hope to all who fall under the overpowering shadow of microsoft, stop being bullied and stop wasting your money....MS are just greedy pigs with an insatiable appetite and won't stop unless they get dropkicked in the ovaries!

yes im smug...im running lunix on ma ps3..and lovin everyday of it!... free online play..ha! :laugh:

Stop trolling and flamebaiting. Please obey the neowin forum rules.

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Heyo

Posted
Posted
Best Buy offers a disk replacement plan.

Thanks, but as I mentioned several posts above... I know. However, not all retailers provide this service.

IMO MS should be more proactive about things like this. I know this is hopefully the last gen we have to put up with physical media, but if they are falling over themselves to block people's right to back up their software legally then they should provide a satisfactory alternative.

It would have been so much better if you could have just returned all damaged discs to MS (through some sort of mail in service) instead of having to chase down company XYZ and plead with them to replace the disc that (maybe your faulty) 360 scratched.

MS is actually pretty good for downloaded stuff. No complaints there. I LOVE how everything is tied to your LIVE account. Like with the Wii you are pretty much screwed as the games are tied to the console, and *laugh* the Terms and Agreements for the downloaded games specifically states that Nintendo doesn't have to do *anything* to reimburse you if the console fails.

Of course several people here would argue that this is <tough luck> because you can not argue with the "Ten Commandments" of Nintendo, but it is another case I would like to see hit court.

Grand Master

gigapixels Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted
Sorry pixels if I come off that way. I just get kindof angry nowdays when people seem to think these companies can walk all over them and we are just supposed to smile and take it because we clicked the OK button on some stupid dialog box full of ten-plus pages of indesiphrable legalise crap.

I think you have more rights than you seem to be aware of, and are just making too many assumptions about what you can and can not do.

The law is hardly as black and white as what is being portrayed here. It is very grey, hence why there are so many lawyers willing to take our money... :)

But I don't see this as Microsoft walking all over me or anybody else. I see it as a basic rule of owning the console. Make your backups if you want, but you can't modify the firmware or else you will be banned from Live. Makes sense to me. I really don't understand why people are making a big deal over this.

I considerd buying a 360, but I gues now its gona be a wii or ps3

Now that's just foolish.

bastards

im going to get banned

even though i havnt done anything wrong

it happened with my xbox 1

i got banned for "modded console" when i hadnt done anything wrong

its a conspiracy i tell you!!

A conspiracy? So they want to just ban paying customers that have done nothing wrong, right? Yeah, makes a whole lot of sense :rolleyes:

Collaborator

Heyo

Posted
Posted (edited)
But I don't see this as Microsoft walking all over me or anybody else. I see it as a basic rule of owning the console. Make your backups if you want, but you can't modify the firmware or else you will be banned from Live. Makes sense to me. I really don't understand why people are making a big deal over this.

The problem with their actions being (at least in Australia) that you are quite within your rights (as defined by the law here) to modify hardware you have purchased to enable your right to backup legally purchased software.

It is simply not within MS's rights to punish you for carrying out a 'right' that the Australian courts have endowed on you. *

Hey, I am not going to take them to court over it (I don't mod, and I don't have the money ;) anyway ) but I am questioning the legality of what they are doing.

I mean, people are getting excited here about 'false positives', but my understanding is that the Xbox itself becomes 'banned' not the user.

What do you think all these people with banned 360's are going to do with them? Sell them of course!

Let's see the fun MS gets' itself into when all these consumers find out their newly purchased machines are 'defective' and who are they going to get angry at? That will certainly be a 'big deal'. It's unprecented as far as consumer products go, up there with BR and HD-DVDs that refuse to play new movies because their keys have been revoked.

* This may have been trumped by the so-called Free-Trade agreement with the U.S. :)

Edited by Heyo
Contributor

kheldorin

Posted
Posted
The problem with their actions being (at least in Australia) that you are quite within your rights (as defined by the law here) to modify hardware you have purchased to enable your right to backup legally purchased software.

It is simply not within MS's rights to punish you for carrying out a 'right' that the Australian courts have endowed on you. *

Hey, I am not going to take them to court over it (I don't mod, and I don't have the money ;) anyway ) but I am questioning the legality of what they are doing.

Then modify all you want. You can still play your backed-up games. You just can't access Xbox Live. There is no law stating that the Xbox Live should be a service given to all Xbox users. They can limit the service to just North American users and still be legal. It is THEIR service. In fact, there are certain Xbox Live features that exclusive only to North American users. And I'm pretty sure MS lawyers can come up with a perfectly legal TOS that does not violate any current law.

Let's see the fun MS gets' itself into when all these consumers find out their newly purchased machines are 'defective' and who are they going to get angry at? That will certainly be a 'big deal'. It's unprecented as far as consumer products go, up there with BR and HD-DVDs that refuse to play new movies because their keys have been revoked.

Then blame the reseller. You're not gonna blame Gucchi if you ended up buying a fake Gucchi bag.

Grand Master

bdsams Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted
As long as they don't ban the wrong people, then I think it's great what they're doing.

agreed

Don't get me wrong, I knew the risk of going online with my modded box from day one.

I had a good run and it seems like it was worth it.

I bought 3 arcade games off XBL. By banning me from Xbox Live, I no longer can purchase anything. Already MS is losing money on me.

No there not, if you were pirating games, MS makes $7 on every game sold for $60...thats there licensing fee, so for every game that you played and did not buy, they lost $7

They should spend their time creating a fail safe procedure that doesn't destroy your xbox, but yet still maintains an equal playing field. As far as I know having a mod chip isn't illegal so why do they ruin a product that you purchased, simple for money. And that ends my rant.

Then dont buy their product, i really find it hard to belive that people playing backups are not pirating and people playing backups/modding are causing MS money to protect those legitamit users...Everyone who buys a 360 and plans to play it on live ( this is the key here as you can still use your 360) knows that modded consoles or disks is against the EULA, stop trying to get things for free that caused other people to work hard to create

Grand Master

spacer

Posted
Posted

Well I haven't used my 360 in 2 months, and I was planning on using it this weekend to catch up on some games. I just read a 10 page article about Call of Duty 4 and now I'm so siked about getting back into my console gaming...

But anyways, it has been several weeks since I logged in to Live, so lets hope my account wasn't banned...I don't have a modde box so I should have nothing to worry about. But, it would be my damned luck I'd be one of the few legit owners to get banned...let's see what happens after work. :blink:

Grand Master

Nashy

Posted
Posted
Absolute rubbish.

What if one of the terms was:

"You can not use this service if you are a female."

If I was a female and clicked "OK" because I felt I should not be obstructed from my legal rights to use the service(as defined by the Australian Government, not MS as you guys seem to believe) and subsequently MS banned me from the service because my username was "Mary".

You seriously suggest I would have no legal recourse?

Of course I could go to a court to argue that the Terms of Use were not fair.

You crack me up. :)

We arn't talking about discrimination here. We are tlaking about Microsofts right to disallow you to use their service. Just like the owner of a resturant can refuse to serve you, or a bar tender doesn't have to give you alcohol.

3. HOW AND WHEN YOU MAY USE THE SERVICE

We provide the Service for your personal use. You may not use the Service for commercial purposes or in a way that is against the law. You also may not use it in a way that harms us or our affiliates, resellers, distributors, service providers, partners and/or suppliers (collectively, the "Microsoft Parties"), or any customer of a Microsoft Party. Some examples of harmful activity that we do not permit include: (i) trying to gain access to any account, computers, hardware or networks related to this Service without authorization; (ii) disrupting accounts, computers, hardware or networks related to the Service; (iii) obtaining or trying to obtain any data through any means from the Service, except if we intend to provide or make it available to you; (iv) using the Service or related hardware to obtain any data to design, develop or update unauthorized software that you use or provide to others to access or use in connection with the Service; (v) charging others to use the Service either directly or indirectly; (vi) using or distributing unauthorized cheats, macros or scripts; (vii) exploiting any bug, or making unauthorized modifications to any software or data, in the Service or particular game to gain unfair advantage in a game.

And some more...

13. SERVICE OPERATION AND EQUIPMENT

The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console or by logging into your account via Xbox.com. If you are accessing the Service via an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, you agree that you are using authorized software and hardware, and that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., authorized repairs, upgrades and downloads). Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, further sublicense, distribute or use for other purposes either the hardware or software associated with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console or the Service, is strictly prohibited and may result in cancellation of your account and/or your ability to access the Service via your original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, and the pursuit of other legal remedies by Microsoft. Microsoft may take any legal action it deems appropriate against users who violate Microsoft?s systems or network security or this contract or any additional terms as described in Section 2 above, and such users may also incur criminal and/or civil liability.Microsoft reserves complete and sole discretion with respect to the operation of the Service. Microsoft may, among other things: (a) restrict or limit access to the Service; (b) retrieve information from the original Xbox or Xbox 360 console and any connected peripheral device used to log onto the Service as necessary to operate and protect the security of the Service, and to enforce this Agreement;b> and ©upgrade, modify, withdraw, suspend, or discontinue any functionality or feature of the Service or any game from time to time without notice, which may involve the automatic download of related software directly to your original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, and which software may prevent your original Xbox or Xbox 360 console from accessing the Service, playing pirated games, or using unauthorized peripheral devices.

b>

Everyone agreed to that term upon signing up for live.

So. Anyone trying the law side of things... you are SOL.

Please come again.

Grand Master

Smigit

Posted
Posted

Good news in general besides the 2nd sentence which I feel is very very dodgy. So basically they can ban you without telling you what you got banned for? I duno eh, I think the right thing to do is to notify the user of why unless MS can guarantees that in 100% of cases they are correct.

The other issue is one Heyo pointed out. Legally in many regions you can modify your console. Perhaps the Live terms of service says to the contrary but I'm not sure that that would even overrule the local laws anyway even if the contract does state that. If tis is the case then MS has no right for banning simply for having a modded console and would have to show that illegal activities were taking place on this modded console. I know many use them for pirated games but also people with the original used modded consoles as media center units too which I highly doubt is illegal in regions where modding is legal.

Grand Master

Nashy

Posted
Posted

It didn't say anything about stopping you from modding your console. Mod it all you like. They can however stop you from using Live. They arn't stopping peole from modding, they are making people choose. Mod, or Live.

Grand Master

bdsams Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted
It didn't say anything about stopping you from modding your console. Mod it all you like. They can however stop you from using Live. They arn't stopping peole from modding, they are making people choose. Mod, or Live.

exactly, this is the difference, as its your hardware you can do what everyou want to it, Live is microsofts service that if you wish to use, you must play by their rules....

Veteran

Tiger.Girl

Posted
Posted

Anyone willing to steal a game will probably have no qualms about going into walmart buying a new 360 and swapping them and returning the banned one. I think they should just ban people until they remove the mod. They don't ban entire computers that use pirated copies of windows.

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