Emo and goth to be made illegal in Russia

[spy beef]

@ aubaine

Also please STOP calling us fascists. Fascists are those that started WWII, indoctrinized most of Europe, and the Holocaust.

You cannot accept our OWN political views, and the right we have to express them so you demonize us with this TERRIBLE term, which actually makes you the demon of hate, not us.

Please respect our views, and refrain using such hateful language. Even though it's the internet, it still has an effect on everyone else. I'm deeply offended that you have compared us to the most disliked, and resented group or persons in all of modern history.

Please think about this before you make another post, and throw the word "fascist" around without any worries at all.

Edited August 1, 2008 by s3n4te

[ANON86364]

No government should concern itself with the personal preferences of it's citizens whether it be music, sexual orientation, or anything else that makes you, you. The purpose of any law should always be to protect a nation's citizens. It is impossible to prove that any culture or belief as a whole causes harm because it simply doesn't. It is the end-believer that has the conscience decision to do/cause harm or not. It is that action that needs to be banned.

[aubaine]

@ aubaine

Also please STOP calling us fascists. Fascists are those that started WWII, indoctrinized most of Europe, and the Holocaust.

You cannot accept our OWN political views, and the right we have to express them so you demonize us with this TERRIBLE term, which actually makes you the demon of hate, not us.

Please respect our views, and refrain using such hateful language. Even though it's the internet, it still has an effect on everyone else. I'm deeply offended that you have compared us to the most disliked, and resented group or persons in all of modern history.

Please think about this before you make another post, and throw the word "fascist" around without any worries at all.

FASCISM: A term used to describe authoritarian nationalist political ideologies or mass movements that are concerned with notions of cultural decline or decadence and seek to achieve a millenarian national rebirth by exalting most commonly the nation state but sometimes the race, and promoting unity, strength and cultural renewal.

Is this not EXACTLY what the Russian government is doing, and what you are approving of? "Emo music doesn't fit with our culture (cultural decline), therefore we are going to outlaw it (authoritarian)."

If you don't like being called a fascist, don't be one.

And how DARE you call my very accurate language "hateful" after reading all of the quotes that I posted from you and others regarding Emo people?

[smurfiness]

Fascism is fascism. I would hope that one of the lessons from WWII is that is shouldn't take the genocide of 6 million people for us to START being vigilant against fascism.

If you thought about my posting of that poem at all, or if you understood the meaning of it even basically, it is that Nazi fascism didn't happen overnight, it happened little by little while people stood by letting their freedoms evaporate and their friends lose their rights. If we stand by and do the same, we have learned nothing.

First, I'm quite familiar with the poem, and I know exactly what it means. I first heard it more than 20 years ago, likely when you were in diapers, or before you were even born. So please, don't act like you're the first to interpret something deep and meaningful from it; you're not. The fact that you actually, seriously think, that the banning of some fringe teen subculture even remotely resembles the beginnings of the persecution and execution of tens of millions of people because of their sexuality, religious beliefs, or country of origin tells me that YOU are the one who is really missing the meaning of that poem.

I am part of the last generation of the Cold War. I watched the Tiannanmen Square tapes on TV the morning after they made it out of China. I remember newsreels of people scrambling over embassy walls to get out of Eastern Europe. I know what REAL fascism looks like. In your deluded world, you may think that somehow not being able to listen to your emo music and bitch about how dark the world is is equal to massacres, strict travel restrictions, internal passports and concentration camps. You are incorrect. Banning emo music is nothing like any of that. It's also nothing like the beginnings of any of that.

Hitler started his government by executing his political opponents. So did Stalin. And you think that banning emo music is the first action of a government -- which already has total control of the country and can do whatever it likes, by the way -- of setting up a fascist dictatorship? Not clamping down the media, not "disappearing" political opponents... no, the road to fascism in Russia starts by irritating the emos.

Have some perspective, for goodness' sake.

[Azusa]

Heh i would love to see how quick some people would be to defend chavs.

[smurfiness]

Heh i would love to see how quick some people would be to defend chavs.

No one would need to. They wouldn't be bovvered anyway.

[Athernar]

Heh i would love to see how quick some people would be to defend chavs.

I have to say, the thread on Iran banning ties didn't get posts like this.

[ANON86364]

FASCISM: A term used to describe authoritarian nationalist political ideologies or mass movements that are concerned with notions of cultural decline or decadence and seek to achieve a millenarian national rebirth by exalting most commonly the nation state but sometimes the race, and promoting unity, strength and cultural renewal.

Is this not EXACTLY what the Russian government is doing, and what you are approving of? "Emo music doesn't fit with our culture (cultural decline), therefore we are going to outlaw it (authoritarian)."

If you don't like being called a fascist, don't be one.

And how DARE you call my very accurate language "hateful" after reading all of the quotes that I posted from you and others regarding Emo people?

You are correct by the literal definition of Fascists.

I am glad that the people approving of this ban are not in any sort of position that would facilitate similar bans in other places. In a judicial system where laws are being made, you HAVE to step back. You HAVE to be non-biased. You cannot let your personal preferences or dislikes sway your decision. A law has a sole puropse of protecting citizens, what this ban is making illegal, does not harm anyone, it is an illegitimate law.

[aubaine]

First, I'm quite familiar with the poem, and I know exactly what it means. I first heard it more than 20 years ago, likely when you were in diapers, or before you were even born. So please, don't act like you're the first to interpret something deep and meaningful from it; you're not. The fact that you actually, seriously think, that the banning of some fringe teen subculture even remotely resembles the beginnings of the persecution and execution of tens of millions of people because of their sexuality, religious beliefs, or country of origin tells me that YOU are the one who is really missing the meaning of that poem.

I am part of the last generation of the Cold War. I watched the Tiannanmen Square tapes on TV the morning after they made it out of China. I remember newsreels of people scrambling over embassy walls to get out of Eastern Europe. I know what REAL fascism looks like. In your deluded world, you may think that somehow not being able to listen to your emo music and bitch about how dark the world is is equal to massacres, strict travel restrictions, internal passports and concentration camps. You are incorrect. Banning emo music is nothing like any of that. It's also nothing like the beginnings of any of that.

Hitler started his government by executing his political opponents. So did Stalin. And you think that banning emo music is the first action of a government -- which already has total control of the country and can do whatever it likes, by the way -- of setting up a fascist dictatorship? Not clamping down the media, not "disappearing" political opponents... no, the road to fascism in Russia starts by irritating the emos.

Have some perspective, for goodness' sake.

First of all, I would caution you against making assumptions about someone's demographics on an anonymous internet forum, as you are likely to be embarrassed by it. You have no idea how old I am, my race, my ethnicity, my nationality, or where I group up. I could be Elie Wiesel for all you know.

Second, just because you lived through a certain period of history does NOT mean that you are the expert on it. I'm glad you watched TV during the 60's and 70's, but that doesn't mean you understand fascism.

Next, I NEVER said that genocide was equal to the banning of emo music and style, so please, stop saying that. I posted a poem about the slipperly slope of declining freedoms under fascism, and then YOU made that statement for me. My point was simply that the erosion of freedom in any form under the guide of cultural "purity" is something that we should be extremely wary of.

Finally, you seem to have a very loose grasp of history. Although Stalin did gain some power by executing some political opponents, he was a Communist, not a fascist. However, Hitler was already in power by the time he started killing off rivals (mostly Communists who were blamed for the Reichstag fire, among other things), and CERTAINLY did not "start his government" by executing political opponents. It was mostly through political loopholes and too many competing parties on the left that weren't able to win a majority.

So please, stop putting words in my mouth, go read a history book instead of relying on whatever TV you watched when you were growing up, and stop supporting fascism.

[ANON86364]

@ dannysmurf

You obviously think you are superior to some people here. You make the assumption that you are older than most here. You also express the bold opinion that since you may be older that you are somehow more intelligent and would like to dismiss opposing opinions simply because you think you are superior. If that's not what you intend or mean to express, then by all means, please re-phrase your statements in a less condescending manner. However, if you do have this mind-set, I have these words: Get over yourself.

[smurfiness]

First of all, I would caution you against making assumptions about someone's demographics on an anonymous internet forum, as you are likely to be embarrassed by it. You have no idea how old I am, my race, my ethnicity, my nationality, or where I group up. I could be Elie Wiesel for all you know.

You could be, but he'd have more taste than your comments have shown.

Second, just because you lived through a certain period of history does NOT mean that you are the expert on it. I'm glad you watched TV during the 60's and 70's, but that doesn't mean you understand fascism.

No, it doesn't. And I didn't claim to. What I said was, I know what real fascism looks like. Tiannamen square and the scramble out of Eastern Europe happened in the late 80s, by the way. Why are you telling me to read a history book if you yourself can't pinpoint landmark events within 20 years?

Next, I NEVER said that genocide was equal to the banning of emo music and style, so please, stop saying that. I posted a poem about the slipperly slope of declining freedoms under fascism, and then YOU made that statement for me. My point was simply that the erosion of freedom in any form under the guide of cultural "purity" is something that we should be extremely wary of.

Actually, you said "Fascism is fascism. I would hope that one of the lessons from WWII is that is shouldn't take the genocide of 6 million people for us to START being vigilant against fascism."

You directly compared this to the start of a genocide.

Finally, you seem to have a very loose grasp of history. Although Stalin did gain some power by executing some political opponents, he was a Communist, not a fascist. However, Hitler was already in power by the time he started killing off rivals (mostly Communists who were blamed for the Reichstag fire, among other things), and CERTAINLY did not "start his government" by executing political opponents. It was mostly through political loopholes and too many competing parties on the left that weren't able to win a majority.

Er... your grasp of politics seems much looser than my grasp of history: Communism is an economic philosophy, not a political one. The Soviet Union had a fascist government, with a Communist economic system. By the way, Hitler was the leader of a minority party in the Reichstag until the coalition government, of which Hitler was appointed Chancellor, at which point he started his government, and began consolidating his power to create what we commonly call the Nazi government. Clearly, the whole situation was more complicated and has taken volumes of text to fully explain, but even Wikipedia will give you those basics.

So please, stop putting words in my mouth, go read a history book instead of relying on whatever TV you watched when you were growing up, and stop supporting fascism.

I would caution you against making assumptions about someone's demographics on an anonymous internet forum

You are 26 years old, and live in the midwest. I am not making assumptions. It's in your profile.

Edited August 1, 2008 by dannysmurf

[smurfiness]

You obviously think you are superior to some people here.

Eh? Don't believe I said that. I've just been posting my own opinions about the topic being discussed. I'm allowed to do that. And it doesn't make me superior; it makes me a registered member of the forum.

You make the assumption that you are older than most here.

Er... no, just one person. And I know this, based on what he put in his profile (assuming it's truthful, of course). Why that means, to you, that I am assuming anything about "most" people here, I'm not sure....

You also express the bold opinion that since you may be older that you are somehow more intelligent and would like to dismiss opposing opinions simply because you think you are superior.

Well, if you got that out of my post, that's your problem. What I actually suggested (and what you should actually infer) is that, because of my age, I may be in a better position to judge the topic of the article within the context of historical events. This was in response to someone comparing banning emo music to the holocaust. I never claimed to be "superior." I happen to think the other poster's implied comparison of the two is ridiculous.... which I'm also allowed to type out loud, since this is a public forum (and having my own opinion, once again, is not against Neowin's rules).

If you've read my comments to mean that I think I'm superior, that's your prerogative. You're just a name online to me, so what you think of me doesn't matter (likewise, what I think of you shouldn't matter to you; clearly it does, but that's your problem). This is just a discussion about the article+responses, not something personal.

Of course, you're also free to disagree with anything I've said (I haven't implied otherwise, I think). But... as I posted earlier, have a little perspective. About the article, and about posting on a public forum. Some people here seem to be taking both of those things much too seriously.

[aubaine]

No, it doesn't. And I didn't claim to. What I said was, I know what real fascism looks like. Tiannamen square and the scramble out of Eastern Europe happened in the late 80s, by the way. Why are you telling me to read a history book if you yourself can't pinpoint landmark events within 20 years?

Here is what you said: "I am part of the last generation of the Cold War." This means that you are saying you lived through the cold war, which would, I would assume, mean all of it. Therefore, people who were born after the 60's and 70's who did not have the opportunity to have the same lived experience as you, would not have seen the TV of that era, thus giving you what you perceive as an advantage over other younger people who did not live through the cold war.

In other words, I wasn't walking about the events you listed, I was talking about your statement about presumed authority on the subject of fascism.

Actually, you said "Fascism is fascism. I would hope that one of the lessons from WWII is that is shouldn't take the genocide of 6 million people for us to START being vigilant against fascism."

You directly compared this to the start of a genocide.

No, I compared fascism to fascism and said that it shouldn't take ANOTHER genocide for people to realize that.

Er... your grasp of politics seems much looser than my grasp of history: Communism is an economic philosophy, not a political one. The Soviet Union had a fascist government, with a Communist economic system. By the way, Hitler was the leader of a minority party in the Reichstag until the Nazi party incited, and was then appointed Chancellor of a coalition government, at which point he started his government, and began consolidating his power to create what we commonly call the Nazi government. Clearly, the whole situation was more complicated and has taken volumes of text to fully explain, but even Wikipedia will give you those basics.

Ok - Communism is NOT an economic philosophy, you're thinking of socialism, or possibly Marxism. Communism may have started in the 19th century with philosophical discussions about economics, but when we refer to Communism today, we generally mean the political practice, which I specifically referred to.

You are 26 years old, and live in the midwest. I am not making assumptions. It's in your profile.

I never made any statement about where I live, I mentioned my nationality, which is not the same thing necessarily. Regarding my age, I have no idea how that is in my profile, as it is inaccurate anyway.

[Robbie Khan Reviews]

This gives Emos something MORE to moan about and probably have a quick slit of the wrists with too.

[aubaine]

But... as I posted earlier, have a little perspective. About the article, and about posting on a public forum. Some people here seem to be taking both of those things much too seriously.

You STILL have not answered the question: How would you feel if the music you listened to or the way you dressed was suddenly made ILLEGAL? Would you still be advocating your current position?

[smurfiness]

No, I compared fascism to fascism and said that it shouldn't take ANOTHER genocide for people to realize that.

With which I absolutely agree. However, my point (though possibly a bit abstract in the context of this discussion) is that banning emo is not fascism, nor the beginning of fascism.

Ok - Communism is NOT an economic philosophy, you're thinking of socialism, or possibly Marxism. Communism may have started in the 19th century with philosophical discussions about economics, but when we refer to Communism today, we generally mean the political practice, which I specifically referred to.

Communism is a socioeconomic structure that promotes the establishment of a classless, stateless society based on common ownership of the means of production and property in general. ("Communism," Wikipedia)

I never made any statement about where I live, I mentioned my nationality, which is not the same thing necessarily. Regarding my age, I have no idea how that is in my profile, as it is inaccurate anyway.

No, but you said I should not infer anything from an anonymous internet forum. Your profile says you are 26 years old, and your profile says you live in Illinois (which I think is part of the midwest... though I may be wrong, since I am not an American). In other words, I wasn't inferring anything. I was reading information straight out of your profile. If that's inaccurate... well, okay I suppose, but it's your profile; you obviously put the information there at one point.

[Vykranth]

I'd like to understand why there is such a uproar and hate about emos and goths which are supposed to be a threat so imminent to the good ol' society compared to the old teen rebellious trends of the past that they must be forbidden.

I mean, there have been hippies, punks, little girls dressed up like Madonna, little boys dressed as gangsta rappers and everything is still there

Societies has been threatened by Def Leppard, Marylin Manson, Eminen, Rammstein, Quentin Tarentino ... and basically, we're still there and the World is not engulfed into the flammes of Chaos.

I mean, it's a trend of kids who are confused about their place in society and rebel against parents and society.

Seriously, that's nothing new under the Sun: in 3 years, there will be a new trend of new rebelious kids with different markers.

[psybapunk]

While we're at it, can we get classic rock and Kenny G banned too? Oh, and anyone who buys pre-faded jeans and pre-frayed hats.

[smurfiness]

You STILL have not answered the question: How would you feel if the music you listened to or the way you dressed was suddenly made ILLEGAL? Would you still be advocating your current position?

Apologies. Question got lost in the shuffle. The one thing you don't seem to be realizing is that stuff like this happens all the time, even in North America. The government regulates what you can wear and how you can look... absolutely it does. If it didn't, you would be allowed to run around in public naked. That may seem like a ridiculous comparison, but it's really no different. Nudity is a form of self expression, after all. But it's banned in public (has been for quite some time). It's an arbitrary limit, as is the emo thing. Does this make Western governments that ban people wandering around naked fascist? Hardly.

In the city where I live, a certain performer was banned from performing... to the point that the city council actually passed a law preventing the performance (this was about ten years ago). I wasn't up in arms then; I wouldn't be now either. We're not talking about fundamental rights being trampled here; this is an arbitrary limit imposed because of the values of the society. The Russian situation is similar (despite all the talk about preventing suicide and such, it seems fairly clear that no one here actually believes that).

So, would it irritate me greatly? Yes, certainly.

Would I advocate that my government was fascist if everything in my wardrobe was declared illegal? I may call them fascist as a way to draw attention to it, but would I really mean it? No, because I still have recourse.

I could still challenge the decision in a court; I could vote for the other guy next time; I could protest.

Those are the three freedoms that make a country a democracy. Not wearing tight-legged jeans and listening to music to show how depressed you are. Taking those away is a matter of taste. The emo kids are still free to vote for someone else (if they're old enough), to blast their music anyway, get arrested, and initiate a court challenge, or to gather in numbers and demonstrate their dissatisfaction with their government's decision.

[Vykranth]

To add a little fun to the thread, can anyone give a rough estimate of the date of the photo? Also, who might be these 4 guys with the hair-cuts not at all aerodynamic?

[spy beef]

Every generation has a youth movement. The late 70?s brought the hippie movement. Now, the 21st century brings the emo movement. These movements cause a separation from standard structure of society. Those that are used to this norm will never be able to except this separation, and will want social unity again. These people are not in any way fascists. They see these radical youth movements to be a threat to their society, and future. There is fear that the world will not be left in better hands as the generation grows up, and previous die off. Due to many of the mistakes their generation have made, many feel responsible to make the world a better place before they pass. They feel that youths who different from the social norm will cause more chaos and destruction. Thus the older generation deem the emo movement as a threat to the future of the world, and are trying to get extinguish it before it causes more damage.

[smurfiness]

To add a little fun to the thread, can anyone give a rough estimate of the date of the photo? Also, who might be these 4 guys with the hair-cuts not at all aerodynamic?

Judging by the haircuts, I'd say early 80s. 1982 or 83. I want to say it's A-Ha, but IIRC, none of them were blonde.

[Vykranth]

Judging by the haircuts, I'd say early 80s. 1982 or 83. I want to say it's A-Ha, but IIRC, none of them were blonde.

Good answer for the date, that was Depeche Mode Circa 1981-1982.

You see: Emo kids and Goth did not invent much compared to their predecessors.

[+Gary7 Subscriber²]

Good answer for the date, that was Depeche Mode Circa 1981-1982.

You see: Emo kids and Goth did not invent much compared to their predecessors.

Posers. :rolleyes:

[aubaine]

Apologies. Question got lost in the shuffle. The one thing you don't seem to be realizing is that stuff like this happens all the time, even in North America. The government regulates what you can wear and how you can look... absolutely it does. If it didn't, you would be allowed to run around in public naked. That may seem like a ridiculous comparison, but it's really no different. Nudity is a form of self expression, after all. But it's banned in public (has been for quite some time). It's an arbitrary limit, as is the emo thing. Does this make Western governments that ban people wandering around naked fascist? Hardly.

In the city where I live, a certain performer was banned from performing... to the point that the city council actually passed a law preventing the performance (this was about ten years ago). I wasn't up in arms then; I wouldn't be now either. We're not talking about fundamental rights being trampled here; this is an arbitrary limit imposed because of the values of the society. The Russian situation is similar (despite all the talk about preventing suicide and such, it seems fairly clear that no one here actually believes that).

So, would it irritate me greatly? Yes, certainly.

Would I advocate that my government was fascist if everything in my wardrobe was declared illegal? I may call them fascist as a way to draw attention to it, but would I really mean it? No, because I still have recourse.

I could still challenge the decision in a court; I could vote for the other guy next time; I could protest.

Those are the three freedoms that make a country a democracy. Not wearing tight-legged jeans and listening to music to show how depressed you are. Taking those away is a matter of taste. The emo kids are still free to vote for someone else (if they're old enough), to blast their music anyway, get arrested, and initiate a court challenge, or to gather in numbers and demonstrate their dissatisfaction with their government's decision.

Every generation has a youth movement. The late 70’s brought the hippie movement. Now, the 21st century brings the emo movement. These movements cause a separation from standard structure of society. Those that are used to this norm will never be able to except this separation, and will want social unity again. These people are not in any way fascists. They see these radical youth movements to be a threat to their society, and future. There is fear that the world will not be left in better hands as the generation grows up, and previous die off. Due to many of the mistakes their generation have made, many feel responsible to make the world a better place before they pass. They feel that youths who different from the social norm will cause more chaos and destruction. Thus the older generation deem the emo movement as a threat to the future of the world, and are trying to get extinguish it before it causes more damage.

Thanks to both of you for posting such well thought-out and explanatory posts. I still disagree with both of you, but now I get a much better sense of where you're coming from. Unfortunately, I don't have time to respond at length to either of you, but I'll come back to this in a few hours.