Mac's - are they overpriced?

[techbeck]

This whole thread has descended into a semi-flamewar that is based on generalities and vague assumptions.

I bought a Mac because I simply couldn't stand working in a Windows environment anymore. And OS X at the time seemed to be a great fit for me. It's in line with my philosophy about how computing should take place, and what it should mean to a person. It's in keeping with what I find most important in hardware and an OS. It has nothing to do with money, or even style. It's about tastes and beliefs. For me, if function isn't wrapped in effective form/design, then I won't be interested in using those functions. It's about the WHOLE package. I want a family of hardware/devices that work seamlessly together, and that require very little work on my part to maintain.

Has nothing to do with me being "stylish" or "rich." I just took longer to save up for an Apple product. If you want something and it costs more, you'll need to be a little more patient and put aside a little more money. It may not take long, or it may take quite a while. It's all relative.

All my PCs work seamlessly together with no HW or SW issues. Its all about what hardware you install on your PC. If you you cheap no name brand hardware, then you will have issues. Macs are nice as they use all name brand hardware and everything is setup and configured to work specifically with a Mac.

I have a Lenovo T61 laptop that I got for free brand new. (attended a sales meeting hosted by Lenovo). Granted the Lenovo isnt all shiny, but I like the dull look to it and its a really good/sturdy notebook. I am also running Windows Vista Business on the laptop and it doesnt have a "Vista Compatible" sticker on it either. Vista is running great and no issues. My lenovo has a Vista rating of 3.7 while my brand new work laptop (Dell e6400) has a rating of 3.4. But i am getting off topic...:)

[Brad.]

Well, it does tend to attract that particular demographic, I'll give you that.

I find that whenever I walk into my local Apple Store (it's usually pretty busy), I see a lot of women - younger professional types, and good looking, too. That's interesting.

Maybe that backs up what I said earlier on, stylish hardware for stylish, rich and or professional customers (Y)

[duritz]

Vs

How can it be compared. Lenovo = Ugly. Apple MacBook = Style.

I didnt buy it for the looks. I am an architect student. The entire system was designed for business 3d rendering. A mac would not be powerful enough to run Revit, and I would have to run it in bootcamp at that. I really dont need stylish honestly. But to make you happy I was going to buy a mac in the first place, but the specs didnt meet my needs. I was just merely pointing out how you could get way better specs for the same cost of the lower specs apple puts in their computers.

"Computing" is not a hard thing or important thing to me, unlike LTD. I have owned macs and windows computers so I am not biased towards either one. It is only a computer.

[Mercellus]

This whole thread has descended into a semi-flamewar that is based on generalities and vague assumptions.

I bought a Mac because I simply couldn't stand working in a Windows environment anymore. And OS X at the time seemed to be a great fit for me. It's in line with my philosophy about how computing should take place, and what it should mean to a person. It's in keeping with what I find most important in hardware and an OS. It has nothing to do with money, or even style. It's about tastes and beliefs. For me, if function isn't wrapped in effective form/design, then I won't be interested in using those functions. It's about the WHOLE package. I want a family of hardware/devices that work seamlessly together, and that require very little work on my part to maintain.

Has nothing to do with me being "stylish" or "rich." I just took longer to save up for an Apple product. If you want something and it costs more, you'll need to be a little more patient and put aside a little more money. It may not take long, or it may take quite a while. It's all relative.

I agree with you LTD, one of the reasons why I decided to purchase a Mac was because it was designed and engineered both from the hardware and the software to work together seamlessly. I used to be a PC enthusiast but I found that over time I stopped caring about exactly how things worked because it was becoming frustrating troubleshooting issues and whatnot, I wanted something that I could come home to and not want to sit there and have a screaming match with it for 10 minutes because of <insert random issue here>.

[ienhz]

I'd hardly call it seamless. I've been holding out on buying an Aluminum Macbook just because of all the issues people are reporting on macrumors, notebookreview, and appleinsider forums with GPU overheating, black screens of death, external displays not working, slanted keys, high temperatures, etc (not even considering the boot camp trackpad problems which Apple doesn't even care about). I've never seen a line of laptops released with so many quality control issues. I was also an owner of the original white Macbook which quickly showed cracking plastics and browning palmrests, which I then immediately sold for a Sony Vaio that has had NO problems at all. I suppose the old adage applies here, fool me once...

[Mercellus]

I'd hardly call it seamless. I've been holding out on buying an Aluminum Macbook just because of all the issues people are reporting on macrumors, notebookreview, and appleinsider forums with GPU overheating, black screens of death, external displays not working, slanted keys, high temperatures, etc. I've never seen a line of laptops released with so many quality control issues. I was also an owner of the original white Macbook which quickly showed cracking plastics and browning palmrests, which I then immediately sold for a Sony Vaio that has had NO problems at all. I suppose the old adage applies here, fool me once...

You can't go by what you see on an internet forum, it's due to be biased towards customers with issues, you rarely hear from those with no issues.

For the record, my MacBook Pro has not had any issues with the graphics processing unit (GPU) overheating, no black screens of death, no slanted keys, and I have an external display connected from the Mini-DisplayPort to DVI connector working just fine. The only issue I have ever had with it was a kernel panic, which upon further investigation was my own fault as I was changing some settings related to power management through the Terminal, so that cannot be blamed on Apple.

[LTD]

All these UFO Mac problems.

You hear about them, but you never see them.

[1759]

The closed approach means that Apple chooses what components go in every Mac, and they are of high quality, where as with a lot of PCs it's basically mix and match.

So is that why the new alu MB's have issues using 4 GB of RAM, or some have the same faulty Nvidia GPUs as other PC OEMs? Apple uses custom motherboards, but the major components (CPU, GPU, RAM, HD, wifi/BT radios) are the same you can buy and use in any other PC for less.

But you're paying more for the Apple name, the form factor, and the ability to run OSX legally. The HW is really nothing worth writing home about even the Mac Pro, as most people just don't need server-class components in a workstation. For everything else, Apple can only produce a laptop in a different case. I'm quite amazed you have to remove the screen on the alu iMacs, just to replace the HD.

Really, it kills me sometimes, when I go on Appleinsider, and people are like "I had to replace the mobo on my MB like 3 times, and hopefully they fix it now, but meanwhile I have to make this post from my old Windoze machine. I can't wait until I get OSX back!" The irony is that the old Windows machine still works, but Apple can still do no wrong, ever.

I don't like Apple that much, as I really don't find them any better than MS, but OSX is so nice; they really have users over the barrel, and they know that the majority of the Apple faithful will put up with what ever they do. No FW on the new MB? SJ says you don't need it anymore, and eventually most start to agree.

Using Apple is all about OSX, but if it could be done cheaper, use faster HW, most people would leave Apple and MS in the dust.

[Chocolate Afghan]

Lets put it this way; if I could run Mac OS X on a Lenovo Thinkpad T500 and fully supported - I would go with it instead of purchase a MacBook.

The only reason I buy a Mac is to run Mac OS X - the looks are secondary.

[sanctified Veteran]

Apple uses custom motherboards, but the major components (CPU, GPU, RAM, HD, wifi/BT radios) are the same you can buy and use in any other PC for less.

Really, how hard is for you guys to understand what the Closed Hardware approach is? :s

[1759]

Really, how hard is for you guys to understand what the Closed Hardware approach is? :s

Custom motherboards don't equate to a closed platform, other OEMs use custom boards as well. A closed platform is supposed to increase stability and improve the overall experience, by only picking a few particular parts, but at the same time, it makes Apple very slow to change, as they only update their HW once or twice a year.

[HideAndGoatse]

Apple puts style before usability, it has to be "sleek and elegant but not necessarily functional" it isn't the most efficient way to have to go through all that just to find your hardware tucked nicely in a far away place. How many times have you all bought a piece of hardware and then a couple months its out dated and half priced? We need customizability. I'm not bashing anything, because even though the macbooks are tough to upgrade, look at the Mac Pro, its so easy to swap parts out and upgrade it, but look at the price increase.

I'm going to have to go with the conservatives on this topic, because this debate is the same as in the fashion world. "Why pay $10,000 for this name when you could get the same fabric for $1,000?" It's just a mindset people have. I do love the user friendliness of OS X, but to pay that much more for something to be nice to me, I'd rather not.

[sanctified Veteran]

Custom motherboards don't equate to a closed platform, other OEMs use custom boards as well. A closed platform is supposed to increase stability and improve the overall experience, by only picking a few particular parts, but at the same time, it makes Apple very slow to change, as they only update their HW once or twice a year.

In the Apple method it doesnt mean propietary hardware, but about how they make their OS and entire developing framework optimized for few specific configurations. Leopard has been made with around 20 different computer configurations in mind while Vista must support thounsands with help of hardware manufacturers. That allows Apple to handle the Hardware longer, just take a look at the G3 example I said before in this thread.

[sanctified Veteran]

Apple puts style before usability, it has to be "sleek and elegant but not necessarily functional" it isn't the most efficient way to have to go through all that just to find your hardware tucked nicely in a far away place. How many times have you all bought a piece of hardware and then a couple months its out dated and half priced? We need customizability. I'm not bashing anything, because even though the macbooks are tough to upgrade, look at the Mac Pro, its so easy to swap parts out and upgrade it, but look at the price increase.

I'm going to have to go with the conservatives on this topic, because this debate is the same as in the fashion world. "Why pay $10,000 for this name when you could get the same fabric for $1,000?" It's just a mindset people have. I do love the user friendliness of OS X, but to pay that much more for something to be nice to me, I'd rather not.

Using that mindset: I rather pay for a laptop that costs $2,000 and I know it will last me at least 5 years than a hardware equivalent that will cost me $1,500 but will last maybe 3 years if lucky. The cost per year is lower, the assembly quality is higher (Can you seriously say that an Aluminium, tank-like built laptop is not functional over a plastic one?), the screen is more suitable for my needs (graphic design for printing) and when its time to get rid of it I can sell it for a decent price because doesnt lose value as much as others brands.

[Richard Hammond]

In the Apple method it doesnt mean propietary hardware, but about how they make their OS and entire developing framework optimized for few specific configurations. Leopard has been made with around 20 different computer configurations in mind while Vista must support thounsands with help of hardware manufacturers. That allows Apple to handle the Hardware longer, just take a look at the G3 example I said before in this thread.

No offense but im getting fed up of people spouting this nonsense, Apple has a set spec, Microsoft doesnt they have to code for many MANY number of configurations, if Microsoft had the luxury of being able to code their OS for 1 set of hardware im sure it would be comparable to Leopard.

Just look at OSX86, take OSX out of its comfort zone of a very limited number of configurations and it falls apart.

[sanctified Veteran]

No offense but im getting fed up of people spouting this nonsense, Apple has a set spec, Microsoft doesnt they have to code for many MANY number of configurations, if Microsoft had the luxury of being able to code their OS for 1 set of hardware im sure it would be comparable to Leopard.

Just look at OSX86, take OSX out of its comfort zone of a very limited number of configurations and it falls apart.

1.- Do you realize you are just confirming what Im saying?

2.- Do you realize that most OSX86 distributions are hacked at the system level?

[Chocolate Afghan]

No offense but im getting fed up of people spouting this nonsense, Apple has a set spec, Microsoft doesnt they have to code for many MANY number of configurations, if Microsoft had the luxury of being able to code their OS for 1 set of hardware im sure it would be comparable to Leopard.

Just look at OSX86, take OSX out of its comfort zone of a very limited number of configurations and it falls apart.

Please. The Laptop market is already standardised around the Centrino platform, all Apple would have to do is state "must be centrino platform". As for the desktop - again, apart from a few small white box vendors out there, most of the hardware is pretty much alike these days.

All Apple would have to do is state a standard, "must have an UEFI firmware, Centrino compliant hardware" and one would have no problems. Allowing Mac OS X to be installed on non-Mac hardware doesn't mean that Apple have to make their operating system compatible with hardware that fall outside the 'supported specifications' that they set.

[sanctified Veteran]

Please. The Laptop market is already standardised around the Centrino platform, all Apple would have to do is state "must be centrino platform". As for the desktop - again, apart from a few small white box vendors out there, most of the hardware is pretty much alike these days.

All Apple would have to do is state a standard, "must have an UEFI firmware, Centrino compliant hardware" and one would have no problems. Allowing Mac OS X to be installed on non-Mac hardware doesn't mean that Apple have to make their operating system compatible with hardware that fall outside the 'supported specifications' that they set.

All speculation that keeps falling outside the company priorities. At times it seems the entire PC community is fed up at apple for not "sharing" what they create. Some others even are naive enough to call that a monopoly. They create the OS, they provide the hardware, is no different of what many plataforms have done before, from vintage systems to modern consoles, get over it, they want to have control of that they make.

[Richard Hammond]

1.- Do you realize you are just confirming what Im saying?

2.- Do you realize that most OSX86 distributions are hacked at the system level?

Yes i know what im confirming but im fed up of people bashing Vista because it doesnt run as well on old hardware because its got far too much overhead having to support a crapload of specs and praising Leopard because its so shiny and stable despite only supporting a handful of specs natively.

[sanctified Veteran]

Yes i know what im confirming but im fed up of people bashing Vista because it doesnt run as well on old hardware because its got far too much overhead having to support a crapload of specs and praising Leopard because its so shiny and stable despite only supporting a handful of specs natively.

Did I bash Vista? Did I even say its inferior or something? Wow, stop beign so defensive man, Im not attacking Vista, Im just saying both companies have different priorities. Do a search on this forum and you will find I have never, ever bashed Vista. In fact I have big expectations of W7

[Richard Hammond]

Yeah sorry i wasnt singling you out personally you were the last person to post so i quoted you :p

[LTD]

1.- Do you realize you are just confirming what Im saying?

2.- Do you realize that most OSX86 distributions are hacked at the system level?

And with respect to #2, good luck when trying to install updates, especially ones at the kernel level.

[Chocolate Afghan]

All speculation that keeps falling outside the company priorities. At times it seems the entire PC community is fed up at apple for not "sharing" what they create. Some others even are naive enough to call that a monopoly. They create the OS, they provide the hardware, is no different of what many plataforms have done before, from vintage systems to modern consoles, get over it, they want to have control of that they make.

For me, I don't want to build my own desktop or laptop; I just want a better laptop than what I'm being offered. The new MacBooks are great - but how long before they fall behind the 8th ball again? The white MacBook is a joke given what one can get in quality generic pc land for the same price.

Desktops though, I'm happy with the current iMac line up anyway.

[sanctified Veteran]

For me, I don't want to build my own desktop or laptop; I just want a better laptop than what I'm being offered. The new MacBooks are great - but how long before they fall behind the 8th ball again? The white MacBook is a joke given what one can get in quality generic pc land for the same price.

Desktops though, I'm happy with the current iMac line up anyway.

In the end its all about how do you use your hardware. I have known and read many printshops and editorials still using G3s and G4s. Capitalism has taught us to spend more and more while we cycle our tools more and more, we have been said that the newest is the best and everything else is crap (that is the one thing I really hate about Apple marketing). But reality says that if you take care of your equipment it can work and last a lot more than the industry says. This is true for both Macs and PCs and this is what I plan to do. Of course we can agree that a well built and solid machine can last a lot with proper care, than one also with proper care but made of weaker parts.

[afusion]

For people who build their own machines they'd like to take that money you would spend to get mac hardware and buy other stuff to go with that build.

That's perhaps why PC guys think they're over priced.