Apple responds to Microsoft ads: "a PC is no bargain"

[Chris-Gonzales]

I love my mac and i love my windows machine, but which is better........... theres only one way to find out.....FIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT </harryhill>

both are good. Saying ones better is rubbish.

Anyway. Just because there is more Windows PC's than Unix / Linux / Mac Computers doesn't mean that Windows is in any way better. It's just a 'no brainer' for most customers who couldn't care less what they run on their computer - as long as it works.

"as long as it works" Thats complete BS. that just shows you don't give a damn about anything. (like you'll buy any car, "as long as it works" and a mile down the road the engine explodes and your dead. opps, you should have cared.

More stereotyping , Why am i not surprised i guess all mac users are smug and arrogant douchebags it works both ways . Our decisions to use PC's are every bit as valid as yours . Stop trying to claim that everyone who uses a pc is somehow inferior its nonsense.

+1

[Southern Patriot]

I can name one thing my PC can do that a Mac can't: play all of my games.

Hmm, I'd say you were wrong there. Any game that can be installed on a PC can also be installed and played on a Mac if you also install Windows via Boot Camp.

[haefft]

Apple is such a negative Nancy! This is the same old broken record Apple uses over and over again. At least Microsoft was kind enough in their Ads to compliment Apple by saying Apple are too cool or something but I can't remember the exact phrase.

[Boz]

Anyway. Just because there is more Windows PC's than Unix / Linux / Mac Computers doesn't mean that Windows is in any way better.

I disagree. Of course it's better or at least more flexible and with more features appealing to a wider range of customers, if it wasn't the product would not have 90% of the market. Microsoft didn't put a gun to anyone's face to adopt windows when it was starting. It was just a better and more open platform. Something that keeps Apple in the "cult" sector these days. They can't expand the market share because they don't have the capacity or capability to cover all corporate and personal demands like Microsoft does. That's a big difference.

In essence Apple took a *Nix core and slapped make up on it. That's what OSX is really. Microsoft built the whole system from scratch themselves. So any flaws that OSX are identical to the flaws of the *Nix core which is hardly unbreakable or flawless.

We can already see that as soon as marketshare breaks 10% OSX is becoming infested by viruses and trojans just like Windows. But there is one huge difference. Windows has been fighting with this for over 2 decades and has it pretty much under control through various vendor and other support. OSX is yet to start falling apart as soon their market share rises and Apple simply won't have the resources to deal with it, especially since the whole stigma that OSX is untouchable and nobody uses an anti-virus. The disaster looming to happen.

Just wait and see.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Boz

[Boz]

Yet again, another clueless person that seems to forget that Macs can also run Windows and play any game that any other Windows PC can run.

The reason is because Apple switched to Intel platform just like PCs and I remember the days when they spit on PCs and Intel. Talk about hypocrisy. Now they run Windows but legally pursue anyone who tries to install OSX on their PCs. LOL.. That's pretty hilarious and two timing. Microsoft should just wipe them out and completely stop production of Office and take away the rights to install Windows through Bootcamp as it's the same type of hacking as PC users do for OSX.

Then you can use Pages or Apple mail with other half functional apps that are semi compatible with Office files that people send to each other. Anyone I know on a Mac that does any business requires Microsoft Office and Entourage on their Macs.

But I'm sure Apple would bitch about monopoly then just like they do now with the new ads. Completely childish and ridiculous company. They yell and scream and joke and lie and misinform with their ads for years and when truth comes out which there's no denying that PCs are cheaper, they start being crybabies. Hilarious if you ask me.

In addition, thanks to Windows, Apple has seen an increase in market share. If Mac was perfect and all this talk about hardware and Windows spitting, why do Mac and OSX lovers need Windows to begin with? You see what's wrong with that picture?

Since OSX lacks a bunch of stuff, Apple STILL has to rely on Windows to sell hardware, since you wouldn't see any growth in Macs if they didn't hack and allow Windows on them. Almost every colleague or friend who is on a Mac (me included) has to boot at least several times into Windows for their work stuff. That's pretty telling on OSX capabilities.

It can be pretty UI, but OSX is no better or worse from Windows with a bunch of flaws, software incompabilities that crash whole systems or hard drive failures. I have never booted Windows so many times as I didn with Leopard and it was confirmed that most of the stuff that was crashing were bugs or software incompatibilities.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Boz

[PL_ Veteran]

This is funny. Apple bashed MS left and right with their "I'm a Mac, and I'm a PC ads" and MS just stood back, didnt comment, and took it. Now MS is fighting back and Apple is crying like a bunch of babies.

If by "crying like a bunch of babies" you mean "sensibly defending their business", then I totally agree with you. How dare they!

[XIII]

I wish I could rate this thread negative.......

[Solid Knight]

Yet again, another clueless person that seems to forget that Macs can also run Windows and play any game that any other Windows PC can run.

The good old "I can do what you can do if I boot into your OS" argument. Dual booting and virtualization are hardly ideal solutions for this problem. Restarting all the time so you can go jump from one application to another sucks. Playing games in a virtualized OS sucks as well. But whatever, it's always nice that somebody points out that if you boot into Windows you can use Windows software. It's an admission of a shortcoming.

And really, if you're primary focus is gaming why the hell would you buy a Mac then install Windows so you can spend most of your time in Windows? For the price you paid for the hardware you could get something with superior specs.

[Southern Patriot]

You just don't get it do you? The majority of PC users are satisfied with their OVERALL EXPERIENCE!

Actually, most people that I encounter that use Windows are NOT satisfied with it, but use it because it is all they know. A large portion of the population really isn't aware that there ARE other operating systems, much less ones that might be easier to use or more reliable. If more retail stores carried Apple computers, you might actually start seeing a shift towards them. This isn't as far fetched as people around here might believe, as both Sears and Wal-Mart used to carry Macs years ago. I actually bought my first Mac at Sears just as they were closing out the last of their inventory back in 1997 or 1998.

[Vice]

Yet again, another clueless person that seems to forget that Macs can also run Windows and play any game that any other Windows PC can run.

If you're booting up Windows on a Mac to run Games then can it really still be considered a Mac? Just because it has an Apple logo on the case? - If you are running Windows you have a PC in a pretty Case. A Macintosh running a Mac OS operating system is a ****-poor excuse for a gaming system.

Not to mention that the Mac hardware that Apple sell has very poor graphics shipping as standard. I own a MacBook Pro 17" the Aluminium model and it comes with a 9600GT but it's not a very fast card, Apple even underclock it. I can play World of Warcraft on my notebook but not at any measure of good graphical detail.

I really do not agree with the remark that I'm just 'another clueless person' I'm very much 'clued up'. Suggesting someone partitions their hard disk, purchases a version of Windows, installs it and then reboots there computer everytime they want to play a game is just absurdity. And as I already mentioned the GPU's Apple ship are less then pathetic.

The Mac Pro for example only has two PCIe 6-pin power connectors which means you cannot even run the best graphics cards avalible because they need an 8 Pin and a 6 Pin which the Mac Pro cannot even provide. It also lacks drivers for all the best graphics cards and it takes sometimes over 2 years before Apple updates to the latest graphics. And if you want to run for example a HD4870 for Mac OS X usage, and another card for when you boot in to Windows to game (Like say a HD4870X2 or a GTX295) you cannot do that as it doesn't have the extra power connectors for it.

Not to mention that the Mac Pro does not support SLI or Crossfire which is something some gamers do want (Myself included) due to the fact I game on a 30" monitor at native resolution something the little GTX120 that the Mac Pro ships with would never be enough to handle.

If anyone is clueless it's you.

[Southern Patriot]

And really, if you're primary focus is gaming why the hell would you buy a Mac then install Windows so you can spend most of your time in Windows? For the price you paid for the hardware you could get something with superior specs.

Anyone whos primary focus is gaming should have a console, not a PC (or Mac). I happen to have all three.

If anyone is clueless it's you.

I never said you could run the games at the highest possible quality, but you can run them. And yes, a Mac running Windows is still a Mac. The ability to run both OS X and Windows is a native feature of Macs. You can't say the same for a PC. Every PC running OS X is using at least some type of hack (either bootloader, modified drivers and kernel, etc.), and is not within the EULA for OS X.

[Vice]

Anyone whos primary focus is gaming should have a console, not a PC (or Mac). I happen to have all three.

You have to be kidding me. The experience on a PC for gaming is so much better. First of all the games are often 1/3rd the price of the Console versions, you have a huge MMO market with millions of players, you can play at higher details (XHD resolutions of 1600P) much higher graphical quality and a game selection that is 50x larger then all of the current consoles put together. And all the best games for Consoles are avalible for PC. Call of Duty 4,5 - GTA4 for example. I own a PS3 but my PC knocks it to the curb in gaming. And that is just a fact.

I never said you could run the games at the highest possible quality, but you can run them. And yes, a Mac running Windows is still a Mac. The ability to run both OS X and Windows is a native feature of Macs. You can't say the same for a PC. Every PC running OS X is using at least some type of hack (either bootloader, modified drivers and kernel, etc.), and is not within the EULA for OS X.

I can run games on a Mobile phone from 1999 doesn't mean its any good. Your argument is completely and utterly flawed. A Mac is not a gaming machine.

[Snowl]

Hay guiez because mah computer can naw run OS X86 and haz a appl stiker its naw a mac rite????

Seriously. I can run OS X86 on my computer, your point being?

Yes, it's legal if I buy the licence and slap a apple sticker on my computer. Legal Document

Single Use. This License allows you to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time

I have a apple sticker on my computer, I guess I could run it if I want then ;)

Edited April 20, 2009 by Kirbeh

[Boz]

I never said you could run the games at the highest possible quality, but you can run them. And yes, a Mac running Windows is still a Mac. The ability to run both OS X and Windows is a native feature of Macs. You can't say the same for a PC. Every PC running OS X is using at least some type of hack (either bootloader, modified drivers and kernel, etc.), and is not within the EULA for OS X.

Nope, it's 2 things. Because Mac is a PC or uses x86 parts just like any other PC manufacturer, it can run Windows. Simple as that. And second, it's not native, just like Bootloaders and whatever you call it on PC side, Apple uses hack software called Bootcamp that most likely breaks the EULA license of Microsoft but as any serious company they are not all panties in a bunch over it like Apple is which is another childish way of dealing with things. We want to take yours but you can't take ours. As I said, I would really like for Microsoft to really get nasty and prevent them from using Bootcamp as it is breaking Windows EULA.

Plus, you can run OSX via hardware with little problems. $100 and it's called EFiX chip that you plug in via USB. You have to be picky with parts, which again is really Apple's fault, so you have to buy PC parts compatible or at least up to par with Mac machines which is really not a big deal if you MUST have OSX on your PC.

[Vice]

@ Roadwarrior

When you begin to use a companies draconian consumer contracts that restrict what they allow you to do with a product you've already paid for in defence of an argument everybody knows that you've already lost the argument. There is really no need to keep posting when you start talking EULA's as a FEATURE of why your companies product is superior to the other guys.

[Darrian]

Nope, it's 2 things. Because Mac is a PC or uses x86 parts just like any other PC manufacturer, it can run Windows. Simple as that. And second, it's not native, just like Bootloaders and whatever you call it on PC side, Apple uses hack software called Bootcamp that most likely breaks the EULA license of Microsoft but as any serious company they are not all panties in a bunch over it like Apple is which is another childish way of dealing with things. We want to take yours but you can't take ours. As I said, I would really like for Microsoft to really get nasty and prevent them from using Bootcamp as it is breaking Windows EULA.

I see where you're trying to come from, but... As you said, the Macintosh IS a ****ing PC. Even pre-Intel the Mac was a PC, but you couldn't install Windows because Windows didn't have driver support for the processors/chipset they were using. Installing Windows on one is not breaking Microsoft's EULA. In fact, I would be very surprised if there is any hardware limitation at all. Where you're going to break MS's EULA is if you use the same OEM disc that came with a crappy Gateway to install Windows on a Mac via Bootcamp, as the OEM license is only valid for the hardware it was sold with. I think. Maybe. Even if it's technically a violation I doubt MS even cares.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Darrian

[Solid Knight]

Anyone whos primary focus is gaming should have a console, not a PC (or Mac). I happen to have all three.

Linux zealots say the same thing. I guess if you want to ignore the millions of PCs games out there you could restrict yourself to consoles.

[Darrian]

I agree. I used to be a console-only gamer. Part of the reason for that is that before I was 22 (at which point I built my first PC) I didn't have the money for a computer, but consoles were fairly affordable. Then I sort-of got into PC gaming, but spent most of my gaming time on my PC emulating the SNES, Gameboy and PS One, until Jedi Knight 2, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Neverwinter Nights, Medal of Honor Allied Assault and various other (at the time) fantastic games came out and firmly rooted me into PC gaming. I do believe that a console is where most gamers' hearts lie, but today's consoles are not consoles at all, they're just really crappy PCs, especially the 360, and they cost way too much, especially considering their failure rates (my SNES, PS One, PS2 and Gamecube all still function flawlessly, there is no RROD). Since 95% of the games I'd actually play on the "next-gen" consoles are also available for the PC I'm not likely to spend extra money on one anytime soon. The lines have become blurred. There was a time when you could easily distinguish the difference between a PC game and a console game, but that time has passed.

The Mac is definitely not a gaming system in any way, however, unless it's running Windows. It has the hardware, but OSX is lacking, Apple is making little or no effort to promote Mac gaming, and developers simply aren't making games for it (except for maybe Blizzard). When I was in my early teens (pre-DOOM) most of my gaming was actually done on a Mac, but now everything pretty much requires DirectX support.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Darrian

[Southern Patriot]

And second, it's not native, just like Bootloaders and whatever you call it on PC side, Apple uses hack software called Bootcamp that most likely breaks the EULA license of Microsoft but as any serious company they are not all panties in a bunch over it like Apple is which is another childish way of dealing with things.

Good God you are F***ing ignorant. Bootcamp is not a hack, it is based on a feature of the EFI firmware (BIOS emulation) that is built into the Mac (and some PCs as well, including my Acer Asprie One). Microsoft has nothing in their EULA restricting what brand of hardware can be used to run Windows. Why? Because they WANT everyone and their brother to run Windows since that is where they make their money. Why does Apple NOT want people installing OS X on other computers? Because they make THEIR money by selling computers, not the OS.

[ccuk]

Yet again, another clueless person that seems to forget that Macs can also run Windows and play any game that any other Windows PC can run.

Out of the box, Macs cannot play the latest games. It requires the investment of a retail copy of Windows and its installation within boot camp to allow simultaneous use of Windows and OS X on a Macintosh computer and hence play the latest and greatest games. Even then, I would say roughly 75% of the Apple computers ship with graphics cards that will lead to an inadequate gaming experience; so much so as it really isn't worth the time and effort wasting HDD space and installing Windows in order to just play games at a poor resolution and with low detail.

Given that the displays on a lot of Apple's products are now at 1900x1200, a 9600GTM or equivalent doesn't really cut the mustard does it?

[Chris-Gonzales]

Apple is such a negative Nancy! This is the same old broken record Apple uses over and over again. At least Microsoft was kind enough in their Ads to compliment Apple by saying Apple are too cool or something but I can't remember the exact phrase.

+1

These ads are more annoying then they are stupid.

<snipped>

:rofl:

Edited April 21, 2009 by John S.

[Boz]

Good God you are F***ing ignorant. Bootcamp is not a hack, it is based on a feature of the EFI firmware (BIOS emulation) that is built into the Mac (and some PCs as well, including my Acer Asprie One). Microsoft has nothing in their EULA restricting what brand of hardware can be used to run Windows. Why? Because they WANT everyone and their brother to run Windows since that is where they make their money. Why does Apple NOT want people installing OS X on other computers? Because they make THEIR money by selling computers, not the OS.

First chill down.

Second, Bootcamp is a hack. The idea was initiated by the reward given a few years ago to hackers to make Windows boot on Mac machine via EFI hacks/bootloaders. The competition ended March 2006 with nerf2006 user as a winner. Then shortly after, more correctly April 5th, 2006, Apple came out with Bootcamp beta. What a coincidence. So yeah, it's a hack, not Windows hack but hack per se because it doesn't natively support it that's why Bootcamp has been in beta for so long. Windows XP did not support EFI, so it was a challenge to boot it on EFI equipped Macs even for Apple, which is why they most likely used Nerf2006 solution as a starting point just made it simple for users and integrated the software into the OS which they initially said would not be done.

When Apple announced that it would be switching to Intel chips after using IBM chips to run its G3 and G4 computer lines, people wondered at the possibility of running Windows on Apple machines. After months of speculation, a special contest was set up to reward the the first person to successfully boot Windows on to a "Mactel."

OSx86 Project is the most popular site regarding Apple's transition to Intel chips. Apple has long said that it would not hinder the efforts to install Windows onto Apple hardware, but that it would not support any such efforts. A contest was set up at On Mac that accepted donations from eager Mac fans to push the development for the dual booting of both Mac OS X and Windows XP.

The contests requirements were (as of March 15, 2006):

1. Instructions must boot Windows XP (at least), not Vista or any other version of Windows.

2. Windows must be able to coexist with Mac OS X and each system may not interfere with the operation of the other (basically a traditional dual boot system where one OS is running at a time).

3. Your method, upon starting the computer, must offer the user to boot either OS X or Windows XP (hint: GRUB / LILO).

4. The first person to post complete instructions, including pictures of the boot process to The Forum will be the winner. Instructions will be peer-reviewed once they are received and once the solution is guaranteed working, the prize money will be transferred via paypal.

5. You give this website the rights to post your solution exclusively.

6. If it is determined impossible to boot Windows on the Mac by March 23, 2006 March 30, 2006 (7 day delay), all donations will be donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation. If you donated prior to 2006/01/23 2:10pm CST, and you do not wish to donate to charity, the money will be returned minus the Paypal fee.

7. You cannot use virtualization software such as Xen or VMWare.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Boz

[iamwhoiam]

Hmm, I'd say you were wrong there. Any game that can be installed on a PC can also be installed and played on a Mac if you also install Windows via Boot Camp.

And that is defeating the purpose of having a Mac to begin with. When you can play all of the mainstream games natively with OSX, then your point is valid.

Edited April 20, 2009 by iamwhoiam

[Boz]

Even if it's technically a violation I doubt MS even cares.

Which quite obviously puts a perspective on things and how Apple's behavior is childish and hypocritical.

[Vice]

First chill down.

Second, Bootcamp is a hack. The idea was initiated by the reward given a few years ago to hackers to make Windows boot on Mac machine via EFI hacks/bootloaders. The competition ended March 2006 with nerf2006 user as a winner. Then shortly after, more correctly April 5th, 2006, Apple came out with Bootcamp beta. What a coincidence. So yeah, it's a hack, not Windows hack but hack per se because it doesn't natively support it that's why Bootcamp has been in beta for so long. Windows XP did not support EFI, so it was a challenge to boot it on EFI equipped Macs even for Apple, which is why they most likely used Nerf2006 solution as a starting point just made it simple for users and integrated the software into the OS.

I just want to point out that Bootcamp isn't actually a hack, it has nothing to do with EFI or BIOS. EFI is made by Intel who from the very beginning had a BIOS plugin for EFI. All Apple did was use it, they didn't need to hack anything it was always there they just never used it. The hack created by the guys you speak of however was a legitimate hack they wrote code that would sit between EFI and the OS.

Microsofts EULA allows its operating system to be booted on any computer that is running it natively. What I mean by that is, you are not allowed to use certain editions of Vista in virtual environments like VMWARE or VirtualPC (According to their EULA) they want people to purchase the more exspensive editions like Vista Ultimate for that use. However the EFI/BIOS thing is fine. In-fact later editions of Vista (past SP1) support EFI natively.

Also Bootcamp is not the 'hack' its just partition software. All it does is Partition the Hard Disk once that is done it does not do anything else. In-fact you do not even need to install Bootcamp you can put a Windows or Linux CD in your Mac and completely erase the Hard Disk and run Windows or Linux. Again Bootcamp is only Partition software.

I wouldn't post with these corrections as I'm overall agreeing with your assertions re PC's running OS X and Macs running Windows but I felt it prudent to point out these inconsistencies.