E3 2009: Microsoft Promises Transformational Show

[Ricardo Gil]

So in MS' shoes what's the best thing to do to maximize sales? Cater for both.

You get more space from Blu Ray for your gaming, in fact more than HD-DVD, then people interested in movies can also play them.

Where is this perception of Blu Ray hardware costing a lot coming from?

The thing is that BluRay burners and Media are going to be cheap by then. On the other hand you won't find HD-DVD burners on every corner.

For consumers, having HD-DVD for games instead of BluRay is negligible. The size difference isn't going to matter IMO. But for publishers it'll be a delight selling games that "can't" be copied.

When the format war was going strong, one of the benefits of HD-DVD was not having to build new assembly lines, you could just use existing DVD ones. The same applies today, so I guess that wouldn't be an issue.

Of course, all this would have to coexist with BluRay, dual format support would have to be there, because like it or not BluRay is here and it is a format the next XBox just can't afford to miss.

These are just possibilities, thoughts that are not meant to be taken too seriously. Let's not turn this into another war.

[Sethos]

And yet we don't know the general opinion towards adopting the standard in a competitors console, none of us know what goes on behind the scene, what's being said or the general relations between the companies - Oh yes, the BD group may be overjoyed as to having MS as a partner, perhaps Microsoft aren't interested in it, which is also an essence in all of this, perhaps they see it as bending over and want to go a different route.

The DVD format 'war' isn't even close to being similar to the HD war between HD-DVD and Blu-ray, Microsoft wasn't even a backer of either format back then, so they really had no ties to it either, they were just brought in as part of a Technical group to work out the differences between DVD and SD discs, merge them in some way or both formats would be dismissed.

So there's a different atmosphere this time around, yet we don't know what will happen. As for licensing fees, yet another point you or me know very little about, fact of the matter is the issue at hand isn't covered by the material you provided and as Sony are a part of the BD group and a large reason for the success of it, they probably have more to say then what is immediately apparent. Another piece of guess-work. Also, what do you know about laws regarding fees? Nobody is saying they will be asking 'millions' but since Blu-ray as a gaming format seems not to be covered by the BD group, it would go up for discussion and thus a higher price point could be agreed which isn't illegal unless it's provided to another company wanting to use it for gaming, at a lower price. ( Taken from Danish law, just assuming law around the world is very similar, perhaps not. )

As I've said a million times, this was all just toying with an idea but you are really detirmed to grab that idea in a choke hold, kill it, stomp its head and spit on the corpse. We're now side-tracking just for the sake of doing so, I said what I wanted to say about this interesting idea and constantly repeating what I already have said isn't my idea of a proper discussion on the matter.

So feel free to go nuts, perhaps there's some juice in this puppy you can kill.

[Ricardo Gil]

Why are people even entertaining the thought of HD-DVD. That doesn't make any sense from any standpoint. The format is dead. I'd much rather Microsoft supported Bluray in their next console.

It's not about going with HD-DVD exclusively, just as a gaming format.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Dude lax with the comments at the end I was just discussing things with you guys and enjoying it, don't sour it by starting to mock me. No one side tracked, all discussions over the last few pages are relevant to behind the scenes required to implement a format in a console.

Anyway, no more points to make, my prediction is you won't see HD-DVD ever be in existence again but we'll see how it goes (Y)

[Sethos]

And to make another point clear, I would love to see Blu-ray on the next Xbox, no doubt about it. I just wouldn't want to pay 'extra' for it which is why I brought up HD-DVD in the first place, if they could revive that format solely as a gaming format and it could be done cheaper, I'm all for it.

Just so people aren't thinking I want to dismiss Blu-ray for the sake of being a Sony format or something.

And sorry AB, didn't mean to come across like that, the ever-expanding points to a simple idea was just getting on my nerves :p

[spenser.d]

It's not about going with HD-DVD exclusively, just as a gaming format.

That makes even less sense.

-Spenser

[Ricardo Gil]

That makes even less sense.

OK, care to explain?

[neoadorable]

using HD DVD isn't as nonsensical as you may think, there's piles of drives and parts lying around, probably enough for a year's worth of new consoles. the cost will be negligible, Toshiba will be glad to give this a shot for pittance, they're not doing too good these days.

All this talk of cost is baffling, anyone who believes that electronics can't be had cheaper these days hasn't gone factory hopping in Guangdong or Fujian yet. Labor no issue, components not a problem, only the hardcore proprietary stuff remains a hurdle, and that doesn't apply to HD DVD.

Besides, with the 360 and PS3 made in the same factories, and MS openly advertising Sony laptops on TV, i'd really take this great contest with a healthy pinch of salt.

[BajiRav]

To support Blu-ray, MS also has to support Java. That's a tough call for them. :p

[George P Global Moderator]

Everyone saying HD-DVD is dead, seems to be missing the big news about what the Chinese are doing. It's about time you all look up CBHD which is the Chinese version of bluray that uses much if not all of the HD-DVD tech. It's build using the same tech and liens that make DVD's now, and is way cheaper for them than making bluray drives and paying licensing fees to Sony, a Japanese company that, lets face it, the chinese hate the Japanese either way you look at it.

That said, where are the majority of not all the 360's built? China! Who's got a cheap and working "new" disc format that holds 30GB for you to put your games on? osnap!

And can it play bluray discs? Why I think it just might! Remember LG had a dual player that did both HD-DVD and BluRay without having a official HD-DVD license, nothing to stop MS from using this sorta new blue laser tech out of china as their games format. And at the same time you can also support bluray playback in software etc, WITHOUT the need to actually have a bluray license. No logo and all that, but so what?

So is HD-DVD dead, maybe for movies, but can MS use the same tech to store games? Yes, why can't it?

[spenser.d]

OK, care to explain?

Ok, maybe because if they're going to support one media over the other, the best choice would be Bluray. By the time they need to manufacture the consoles, it will be far cheaper to use Bluray than to restart the dead HDDVD manufacturing lines (for both the drives and physical media, no matter how similar they are to Bluray). On top of that, the smart thing to do would be to support the media that all of the movie studios are pressing their movies to, which happens to be Bluray again. I think you guys are underestimating the enormous cost it would take to restart the manufacturing process for a dead format. HDDVD is gone, get over it. I would much rather see MS support Bluray, if only so I don't have to buy a separate Bluray player to watch HD movies.

-Spenser

[George P Global Moderator]

Yet, as I said in my post HD-DVD isn't gone really. The blue laser tech is still there, and it's found new life in China. As for manufacturing discs, the costs aren't and never were high. Some minor changes to a few DVD production lines and you're set to go. What enormous costs are you thinking about?

Also, we are talking about China here, making this "new" alternative blue laser optical media there would be very very cheap.

[spenser.d]

HDDVD is dead. Gone. Done. Nobody supports it anymore. It wouldn't make sense to go into Bluray. And yet again, it wouldn't make sense to support a format that the movie studios don't support. A good part of the reason people buy consoles is so they can play movies and if, in late 2010 or 2011 or later when it comes out, they aren't supporting Bluray, the dominant HD format, they'll be losing money fast.

I'm also fairly certain that most Bluray parts are made in China, so there's no difference there, except for the whole fact that there's a demand for Bluray and not for HDDVD.

I don't understand why you guys are stuck on HDDVD. I was a huge supporter of it and I really wanted it to beat out Bluray, but you have got to get over it and move on at some point.

-Spenser

[George P Global Moderator]

Why do you keep going on and on about hddvd and movies? We're talking about what games will come on, and those don't have to be bluray if MS wants to save costs due to licensing. And why give money out to your key rival if you don't have it.

You're going an and on about how hddvd is dead, fine, but the blue laser and disc technology behind it is far from dead. Using the same disc method the Chinese have their own bluray alternative for movies in the works which will be very very cheap for them in comparison.

Nothing stopping MS from signing up to said CBHD for use in their GAMES, and at the same time having a blue laser drive that will also play bluray movies (same laser and so on, no real difference) unofficially like what LG did with their first hybrid bluray/hddvd drive and not have to pay a dime to Sony, panasonic and whoever the 3rd bluray partner is, I forget.

This is a hypothetical yet doable option to go down if MS so wants to, yet you keep looking at it from only the movie angle. That's not what we're talking about at all.

[spenser.d]

And you keep bringing up this Chinese alternative like it'll be something that will take at all, or be any good in the first place. I bring up movies because if they don't support Bluray playback for movies, their console won't take. You think they could just make a hybrid drive at no extra cost to them, which really isn't true. You're making the assumption that all of your ideas really will be cheaper when there's no real reason to think so. You're also making the assumption that MS cares about not paying a dime to Sony, but MS isn't competing with Sony over HD formats, so that's irrelevant. They already work with Sony on other things, so why not Bluray.

I don't know why you're against Bluray. By the time their next console comes out, there's going to be no real reason to think that solely supporting Bluray would drive the cost to the consumer up by any non-negligible amount compared to anything else.

-Spenser

[Ricardo Gil]

And you keep bringing up this Chinese alternative like it'll be something that will take at all, or be any good in the first place. I bring up movies because if they don't support Bluray playback for movies, their console won't take. You think they could just make a hybrid drive at no extra cost to them, which really isn't true. You're making the assumption that all of your ideas really will be cheaper when there's no real reason to think so. You're also making the assumption that MS cares about not paying a dime to Sony, but MS isn't competing with Sony over HD formats, so that's irrelevant. They already work with Sony on other things, so why not Bluray.

I don't know why you're against Bluray. By the time their next console comes out, there's going to be no real reason to think that solely supporting Bluray would drive the cost to the consumer up by any non-negligible amount compared to anything else.

-Spenser

We were just talking about the possibility of having a drive format (as expensive as BluRay) that could read not only Bluray for movies but also a separate format for games. Consumers would play BluRay movies just fine, publishers would have a format that could not be copied, in return that would bring in more investment from publishers. It would be a win-win situation. Again, this is only speculation. The big if is the cost of such drive. I think it may be feasible, but that's just a guess though.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

We were just talking about the possibility of having a drive format (as expensive as BluRay) that could read not only Bluray for movies but also a separate format for games. Consumers would play BluRay movies just fine, publishers would have a format that could not be copied, in return that would bring in more investment from publishers. It would be a win-win situation. Again, this is only speculation. The big if is the cost of such drive. I think it may be feasible, but that's just a guess though.

If it can read Blu Rays what on earth would be the point in putting games on another format? :blink:

Blu Ray discs can hold more than HD-DVD anyway. If you're packing a fair bit of HD CGI cutscenes in 1080p like say FF14/15 might and HD audio you could end up with it still having to be on 2 HD-DVDs seeing as they're 25GB. Blu Ray does 50GB right now.

Some of the current 360 RPGs come on 4 discs, 4 x DL DVD at what, 8GB roughly?, is 32GB.

Of course an HD-DVD disc could do 50GB, I think Toshiba listed specifications for such disc but whether or not they were ever made is another question, I don't know.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

The disks are 8.5GB's, but the games aren't.

Typically 6GB's.

[Sethos]

If you were to create a hybrid system of HD-DVD and Blu-ray it kinda renders the entire point moot, then you might as well go Blu-ray, save some money.

[Ricardo Gil]

Sometimes I wonder if you guys actually read... PIRACY. It's a big concern nowadays for publishers. As a gamer I don't care about what technology is being used, as long as it works. As I said, at the same price, it would be a win-win situation for everyone. I don't know how you can argue against that...

[Sethos]

But it won't be at the same price because you need to use two formats, both cost money to have running and paying money to, so I doubt it'll be at the same price and if Microsoft do decide to use HD-DVD, I have a gut feeling it'll be cracked very easily, the nonexisting piracy on the PS3 is not just because of Blu-ray because it's not impossible to get Blu-ray media and cheap Blu-ray burners, it's the technical and software side of the PS3 as well and how it handles reading of the discs. So unless Microsoft decide to be drastic it'll probably be cracked again.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Sometimes I wonder if you guys actually read... PIRACY. It's a big concern nowadays for publishers. As a gamer I don't care about what technology is being used, as long as it works. As I said, at the same price, it would be a win-win situation for everyone. I don't know how you can argue against that...

Uhhh preventing piracy in the future is going to be much more to do with the way the disc drive interacts with the console and ways in which discs/operations/code can be checked on the console/tied to the online side of things.

Look at the PS3, okay Blu Ray costs were high and it's a new format but it's still not cracked yet - And no one is giving me that "there's nothing to play on it pirates don't care" line we used a year or so back. People crack the devices for prestige, the coders who can do these things don't care if Blu Ray discs cost a lot, they just want to be the first to say "we done it" or sell their modchip.

The 360 is simpler than the PS3 in terms of hardware (no not in terms of power, I mean protection, word is the CELL has one whole SPU dedicated to checking things). MS still fight back by banning consoles though, you can bet next generation banning consoles will be back.

And once the PS3 gets broken down if it does Sony will be banning consoles also. Seeing as they don't rake in an income from subscriptions either they could easily just ban/wipe PSN accounts also - Now that would be a kick in a balls never being able to get on PSN again from that account. Of course I dunno how legalities would surround the fact you have digitally purchased content tied to the account, but if they can just have it in the T&C modding the console bans your PSN, people will most certainly be worried trying it if they could lose all their purchases.

And before any whines "I purchased all that content I deserve it!", you have no real reason to be crying if you modded the console to play copies. It's absolutely hilarious when people whine about their banned Xboxs as if they installed the firmware for something else than downloading games.

Unless you're a SP only player, modding current/next-gen consoles is going to be a game of cat and mouse you'll lose a lot in and have to shell out plenty of cash.

Edited May 1, 2009 by Audioboxer

[Sethos]

And before any whines "I purchased all that content I deserve it!", you have no real reason to be crying if you modded the console to play copies. It's absolutely hilarious when people whine about their banned Xboxs as if they installed the firmware for something else than downloading games.

Then there's this tiny matter of national laws, by Danish law I am allowed to have a backup of a game ( Any media ) I own for personal use, that also means the unit should be playing this backup. So that means I could also modify the hardware to some extend. Yet the Store is also bound by our laws, meaning there are some rules dictated by them but taking our legitimately purchased content away because I did something that is also legitimate, doubt they'll get away with that ...

The 360 get around that small thing by just banning the console from going online, which is breaking a rule in their service which is fair, then they prohibit access to their service, yet every content you bought is still yours.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Then there's this tiny matter of national laws, by Danish law I am allowed to have a backup of a game ( Any media ) I own for personal use, that also means the unit should be playing this backup. So that means I could also modify the hardware to some extend. Yet the Store is also bound by our laws, meaning there are some rules dictated by them but taking our legitimately purchased content away because I did something that is also legitimate, doubt they'll get away with that ...

Are you sure about that?

I'm quite sure the law might state you can backup a disc, but I'm sure it doesn't say the device has to play copies?

If it did wouldn't it be illegal for Sony/MS/Nintendo to sell a games device in your country that can't ready copied DVDs/Blu Rays? The PS3 will read copies DVD and Blu Ray movies I believe (so it does read copied discs), so maybe games form a different stance in the law?

No console has ever played copied games with no form of modification apart from the DC I think.

So in fact it does look like you are right about it having to read copies :laugh: It's just my point about games seems to be valid.

But you are right, most of the litigation comes from the T&C that can be put on the consoles such as you modify our hardware, we ban your console.

[Sethos]

That's the thing, the unit by law isn't required to play the backup, as long as it abides by electronics standards, then it's all well and dandy. But, I, as an individual should be allowed to modify / change it to play my legit backup, else there would be no point in having that backup, without the company have much to say, except that can ban you from a service they provide like PSN / Live but not the entire console or 'steal' content from you.

This is a bit of a grey area, I just heard something on TV a while ago from one of those lawyer / Anti-Piracy freaks who said something along those lines, just with a lot of Political Correctness and fancy words on top.