[Feedback needed] Atlas, the next version of Neowin


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Simon

Considering you haven't actually used the site, I don't think it would be fair for you to say the data savings are minimal. When we have all the code finalized, we'll be able to prove it to you.

And we did put effort into it. We wouldn't be doing this if the design we chose looked hideous in Opera and IE. Considering the circumstances, it could be a lot worse. The design was always intended to look good both ways, as we knew it would be seen both ways. Again, it's not fair for you to criticize until you've really seen it and used it in person, and you do need to realize the amount of effort and thought that went into the design.

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Calum
To be honest, we had it square on our dev sites for a very long time, and it looked fine. Once you see it and use it live, you'll see it really doesn't look worse.

I agree. As you know, Dave, I used Internet Explorer for a fair bit when I first started using Atlas (as I was using IE anyway) and I'd been using it for over a week before I changed to Firefox and noticed it was all rounded. When using Internet Explorer, not knowing the site was rounded in other browsers, I still thought it looked very nice and had no problem with it.

To those complaining to the Neowin developers... why not blame your browser manufacturer? If Mozilla and Apple have been able to include support for the 'border-radius' then so have Opera and Microsoft; they just haven't bothered/have focussed on other features. That isn't Neowin's fault. Why should they be disadvantaged by having to include rounded images just because some browser manufacturers are behind with the times?

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MikeChipshop

I have to disagree with Mike's above post.

Eradicating all the extras DIV's and images etc needed to create rounded corners will cut down page load times enormously.

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Mike
And we did put effort into it. We wouldn't be doing this if the design we chose looked hideous in Opera and IE. Considering the circumstances, it could be a lot worse. The design was always intended to look good both ways, as we knew it would be seen both ways. Again, it's not fair for you to criticize until you've really seen it and used it in person, and you do need to realize the amount of effort and thought that went into the design.

It could also look a *lot* better :p It does not look good in squared "mode". If I haven't really seen it, what was the point of showing the image of it?

I have to disagree with Mike's above post.

Eradicating all the extras DIV's and images etc needed to create rounded corners will cut down page load times enormously.

I'd disagree, if a browser takes an "enormous" time to handle a few extra divs it is seriously broken.

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+Mystic

Wow I can't believe I didn't see this thread until now. I definitely like the look of the new theme. The only way I can describe it as is...smooth. The subtle changing to a more subdued blue is less striking but a bit easier on the eyes and compliments the overall look.

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jonhapimp
Wow I can't believe I didn't see this thread until now. I definitely like the look of the new theme. The only way I can describe it as is...smooth. The subtle changing to a more subdued blue is less striking but a bit easier on the eyes and compliments the overall look.

they just opened it up to us normies

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MikeChipshop
I'd disagree, if a browser takes an "enormous" time to handle a few extra divs it is seriously broken.

"A few extra divs" in web design terms is a big deal.

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Calum
I completely disagree that different browsers get a different version of the site.

Every browser should get the same experience.

Well why are you blaming Neowin? They've used the same code to get rounded elements and yet only Chrome, Safari and Firefox display those rounded elements. Surely if every browser should get the same experience then every browser should display the same output using the same code? I'm going by your logic there. Do you see what I'm saying? As a web designer myself, I'm really passionate about this - It's Microsoft and Opera's fault why the 'border-radius' doesn't display rounded elements in their browsers so I find it appalling that people can blame the developer. If a developer can make their website more efficient but still look nice in a browser that is behind with the times, often they will do so. You want rounded corners? Then why not use a browser that can render them utilising the CSS code which was designed to do such a thing?

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Mike
"A few extra divs" in web design terms is a big deal.

It really isn't...

Well why are you blaming Neowin? They've used the same code to get rounded elements and yet only Chrome, Safari and Firefox display those rounded elements. Surely if every browser should get the same experience then every browser should display the same output using the same code? I'm going by your logic there. Do you see what I'm saying? As a web designer myself, I'm really passionate about this - It's Microsoft and Opera's fault why the 'border-radius' doesn't display rounded elements in their browsers so I find it appalling that people can blame the developer. If a developer can make their website more efficient but still look nice in a browser that is behind with the times, often they will do so. You want rounded corners? Then why not use a browser that can render them utilising the CSS code which was designed to do such a thing?

You blame the developer because they're developing for the browsers out there in use today. The developer is responsible in getting the site to display properly in all browsers, just like a software developer is responsible to ensure their software works with new versions of Windows for example.

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Calum
You blame the developer because they're developing for the browsers out there in use today. The developer is responsible in getting the site to display properly in all browsers, just like a software developer is responsible to ensure their software works with new versions of Windows for example.

And what have the Neowin developers done? They have got the site to display properly in all browsers. So I ask again, how can you blame the developer in this case? Displaying rounded corners does not constitute "displaying properly". I suppose that could be a matter of opinion but I deem "displaying properly" as displaying in a usable manner.

I'm not even defending Neowin here, I'm defending my own opinion on CSS 'border-radius' and browser support for it.

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MikeChipshop
It really isn't...

I think we are going to have to agree to dis-agree here.

I've worked in web development for over a decade and i can tell you that any web developer worth their salt will cut out any extra fluff that's un-needed especially on a busy high bandwidth site such as Neowin.

I commend the developers here for their decision to go with CSS instead of images/nested divs.

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Simon

I wanted to avoid getting really technical here, but here we go...

The HTML for the latest activity box on Finity: http://min.ie/1QG

As you can see, there are a *lot* of nested divs to create the rounded corner effect.

On Atlas: http://min.ie/1QH

Download time cut down significantly, not to mention rendering time.

If you want to keep this going, pick it up in a PM with me. I don't want to post raw numbers here because our code is likely to change significantly before we release.

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+Mystic
they just opened it up to us normies

Ah that makes sense then. Thanks for the heads up!

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ncc50446

I would just like to say, very nice! I think it looks wonderful! You have worked hard on this site, and your hard work shows.

As for the rounded/box corners, while I am one of the ones who uses Opera, and will end up with boxed corners, I think it still looks great.

I like that a tech site is using the latest in programming and design.

Now if only Opera would hurry up and get with the latest...

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petrossa
Going to address this now, than later.

Safari, Chrome, Firefox (3+) will get nice rounded corners and drop shadows.

IE, Opera (crap) will get a squared looking site (which still looks nice, but a bit more "lite" like).

Opera basher?:laugh:: Opera is the bestest of the bester of them all. I love squares.

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qdave

It looks quite well actually.

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Timan
Opera basher?:laugh:: Opera is the bestest of the bester of them all. I love squares.

Hehe, I had to:pp... you have no idea how much of a pain it was to get some things to look right. And there is almost no documentation on css fixes for the opera 9~ versions.

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petrossa
Hehe, I had to :p ... you have no idea how much of a pain it was to get some things to look right. And there is almost no documentation on css fixes for the opera 9~ versions.

No matter. It's a very good design and pleases me very much, round or square.

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Wannes

I like it but that's all that I'm going to say until I can use, test and evaluate the skin as a member on a site. ;)

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CrazyDiablo

It is very nice. I hope you will make it soon. :D

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Subject Delta

Surely on a site as big as this it makes more sense to wait until features are finalised, and have more wide support to use them. 2 browsers which between them make up about 70% of the world's browser usage don't even support the features being used, that should be a strong enough indication in itself :/

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+Anarkii

I really don't understand why people are making such a big fuss over rounded or square corners... The site looks amazing no matter what browser it would be viewed in. It is as simple as that.

Great work Devs!

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mail
Surely on a site as big as this it makes more sense to wait until features are finalised, and have more wide support to use them. 2 browsers which between them make up about 70% of the world's browser usage don't even support the features being used, that should be a strong enough indication in itself :/

Opera doesn't really contribute a lot towards that percentage.

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Subject Delta
Opera doesn't really contribute a lot towards that percentage.

So what? The issue is the same for Opera and IE so that is irrelevant, a large portion of Neowin's browser users are having different pages fed to them.

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Timan
So what? The issue is the same for Opera and IE so that is irrelevant, a large portion of Neowin's browser users are having different pages fed to them.

No, they are not, everyone gets the same exact code. Its just IE/Opera do not render the rounded corners the css specifies.

We'd have to make images for every single corner of ever box (different colors, different styles etc), also means alot more markup.

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