official F1 World Championship 2011 Thread

[simonlang]

You see that big strip of tarmac that is 20 feet wide, thats called a 'road', Cars drive on roads.

yes i see the tarmac. cars drive on roads, formula specification cars drive on roads and cut the track by using kerbs.

The other drivers managed fine, if he didnt cut the corner so much he wouldnt trash his suspension thats twice hes done it in as many days, you shouldnt be able to cut a corner so much without a penalty and the penalty is damaged suspension.

bold statement after the last weeks and in mind what happend to simoncelli and wheldon. do you remember south korea? i guess it was there when some of the kerbs just BROKE while cars cut it. its a clear security problem. look at monza/montreal and some other tracks. there they got it solved. add some "bumps" arround the kerbs, so riding and cutting the kerbs wont be an option. it was the same in monaco 2009, when massa and others rightfully cut the kerb and next year it was solved by track constructors.

this is what i fully expect to happen in india too.

you make it look like it was a driving mistake from massa, while i argue that others were just lucky not to get caught in the same situation. its not like others avoided kerb and massa fully cut it. if so he would have lapped full 2 seconds or so faster (given the lenght of the track) than all other cars.

answered in red :)

[surrealvortex]

All the others were lucky and Massa got unlucky twice? That is too much of a coincidence. If it isn't driver error, then it should have been a problem with the car. However, Alonso managed just fine, so I am not inclined to blame the car.

[what]

answered in red :)

They aren't supposed to cut the corners, they're given some leniancy but technically they shouldn't creep over the white lines at the side of the track because it isn't part of the track. The corner Massa hit wasn't a tight chicane or anything, he cut the corner too much, which ordinarily would shorten the track and improve lap time. They've rightfully opted to lay down something to prevent drivers from doing that, and all but one driver avoided hitting it too many times today.

The track is the track and if you can't stick to it you deserve to be thrown out of the race. Otherwise, where do you draw the line?

[neo1911]

I clearly heard the commentators say that the kerbs are in place so that drivers don't abuse the track.

Mr. Bean's reaction was classic. Can even become a meme.

[simonlang]

They aren't supposed to cut the corners, they're given some leniancy but technically they shouldn't creep over the white lines at the side of the track because it isn't part of the track. The corner Massa hit wasn't a tight chicane or anything, he cut the corner too much, which ordinarily would shorten the track and improve lap time. They've rightfully opted to lay down something to prevent drivers from doing that, and all but one driver avoided hitting it too many times today.

The track is the track and if you can't stick to it you deserve to be thrown out of the race. Otherwise, where do you draw the line?

so then you just would throw out montreal, monza and monaco out of the calendar then because there, all drivers cut the track. several times a lap?

i have a very clear opinion on this: either you make the kerbs the way that no driver can cut them like seen here:

or you make the kerbs the way, that by cutting them you still are inside the track, no rule is broken, and a normal f1 cars suspension survives the additional load like seen here:

when they manage to get this done in montreal, monaco, monza and other tracks, then surely they should be able to do it in india as well. as it was the first year, i give them the benefit of doubt, but again, i bet with everyone here that by next year this is fixed.

[neo1911]

^^ Read or listen to what commentators said that time.

[what]

I repeat, the corner Massa cut was not a difficult corner to avoid cutting. He just didn't bother to go around it. Monaco, Montreal and Monza are pretty different tracks, have you got similar examples from more comparable tracks like Istanbul and Silverstone?

[TheLegendOfMart]

answered in red :)

Im not trying to trivialise their deaths but all bikers have to protect them is a helmet and leathers, if you are leaning and a bike comes flying up 150-200mph and smacks you in the head there is nothing they can do to prevent that safety wise.

As for Wheldon im pretty sure i read that there were some safety concerns about the cars racing on that track in tight groups it was unfortunate he hit the car in front with launched him into the barriers.

Massa on the other hand was cutting the corner far too much, its not like it was an isolated incident he did it again and again and again and eventually his suspension snapped safely in the manner that it was designed to snap, you arent supposed to cut corners that much which is why that orange curb is there. No one else on the track that day had any issues with that curb because they raced properly.

[mps69]

I'm pretty sure the rules around jumping and cutting corners states that at least two wheels, front and rear, must remain on the track at all times, or within the confines of the track, the correct side of the white lines.

The exception to this, as the picture clearly shows on McLaren2 post, which looks like the exit of the last corner in Montreal, all the wheels are off the track. This because this line is technically making the track longer, and the driver gains no advantage to taking this line

Drivers trying to cut the chicane prior to this corner are penalize, as they do clearly gain some advantage.

[JoeC]

Just on the Massa/Hamilton issue, I think it's quite interesting that everyone is blaming Hamilton.

A couple of races ago, Hamilton was defending from Massa, who sent one up the inside, only for Hamilton to intentionally turn in on him. Massa got a puncture and had to pit for repairs.

Result: Drive-thru for Hamilton for turning into Massa.

India: Massa was defending from Hamilton, who sent one up the inside, only for Massa to intentionally turn in on him. Hamilton got his front wing badly damaged and had to pit for repairs.

Result: Drive-thru for Massa for turning into Hamilton.

I thought the stewards did an excellent job today of showing that they're applying the rules equally and fairly. How is this suddenly ferocious pro-Hamilton support by the stewards? Bloody stupid.

[Shibby]

I thought the track was boring. As for the Massa incident, well he could have avoided it, after all he did defend his postion so he knew Lewis was with him and he would have known he shouldn't have even defended as it pushed him a bit to far out, so he gave more then enough space.

As for cutting corners, well F1 drivers don't want to cut corners that want want to make the most out of the track. And for when cars go wide over the lines it depends if it adds any length to the circuit. So if you cut a corner yeah you're reducing the length, but if you go wide you're extending it so nothing happens to you.

[simonlang]

Pat Fry: “There are many elements worthy of note that have come out of this weekend in India. Again today, we had a suspension failure, this time the front left on Felipe’s car: first analysis indicates the break was generated by a series of factors, starting with the collision with Hamilton. After that came the punctured tyre and it ended with the impact with the kerb.

now thats interesting. after the collision with hami felipe suffered a (slow?) puncture and that could indeed have caused the suspension to collapse if he went over the kerb. a normal working tire would just have taken the hit normally i say.

[TheLegendOfMart]

No, he had gone into the pits for a fresh set of Prime tyres then he binned it into the curb. Pat Fry is just trying to stirr up controversy, Massa went nowhere near Hamilton in Qualifying, whats the excuse there?

[JoeC]

Getting pretty desperate, mc2. You'd be far better off just admitting that Felipe Baby had a bad race, and that he can't blame anybody else for hitting the kerb twice, and breaking his suspension twice.

[Eddo89]

No, he had gone into the pits for a fresh set of Prime tyres then he binned it into the curb. Pat Fry is just trying to stirr up controversy, Massa went nowhere near Hamilton in Qualifying, whats the excuse there?

Don't really know the context of the qualifying statement, but Schumacher went nowhere near Rosberg. And Vettel should win most races by 3/4 of a lap with his qualifying pace. So how and where Hamilton is relative to Massa in qualifying trim don't mean much. As it is, Hamilton hardly seem to had much pace anyway, so it was always going to be a scrap.

I like Massa, but what I see is: He hit the kerb hard, he broke suspension, he crashed. Maybe Hamilton caused the damage, maybe Ferrari just have a weak suspension. Either way, both of his crashes involved going over the orange kerb, which is supposedly a no-no, so he can't blame anyone.

As for the penalty, I say racing incident. But because Hamilton needed a nose change and Felipe didn't, I think Massa was rightly penalised but it was a hardly clean bit of racing. Lewis was an idiot and naive to stick his nose there, it was always going to be a risk. Is not an overtake area, Massa was always going to have to cut back in. The verdict is that Massa needlessly took his racing line, he can have avoided by running wide, he didn't have the inside, he had room. If Lewis hit him despite giving him space, then sure, Lewis was in the wrong. But with the way Massa turned in, Lewis would had never had a chance to avoid it after he committed. Noentheless, I can see why Massa would feel aggrieved but while we can say drivers are reckless, drivers who stubbornly hold their ground despite imminent crash is also in their own way, reckless.

Frankly, two bit of a stubborn racing for 2 racers who looked ordinary for the season pretty much.

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

As to who could replace Massa at Ferrari: Nico Rosberg has yet to be confirmed for 2012 by Mercedes GP. Just a thought.

[TheLegendOfMart]

Don't really know the context of the qualifying statement, but Schumacher went nowhere near Rosberg. And Vettel should win most races by 3/4 of a lap with his qualifying pace. So how and where Hamilton is relative to Massa in qualifying trim don't mean much. As it is, Hamilton hardly seem to had much pace anyway, so it was always going to be a scrap.

I meant in the context of him hammering the suspension off the the orange curb, mclaren2/pat fry are insinuating that the collision between Hamilton and Massa was the reason his suspension failed. I was saying Hamilton wasnt driving anywhere near Massa and Massa still smashed his suspension so what is the excuse for Qualifying.

I went back and watched some footage from Quali and Race, Massa lap after lap consistently went nearly all 4 wheels off the track smashing that orange curb, its not a track/safety issue, its not crashing with another car issue, its his driving style destroying his car nothing else.

[ybrett23]

As to who could replace Massa at Ferrari: Nico Rosberg has yet to be confirmed for 2012 by Mercedes GP. Just a thought.

kimi could also replace him, if he decides to come back, at least he would be in a better car than the williams

[mps69]

As to who could replace Massa at Ferrari: Nico Rosberg has yet to be confirmed for 2012 by Mercedes GP. Just a thought.

Difficult one, he would have to accept to playing second fiddle to Alonso until he can prove he's better.

[Biohead]

kimi could also replace him, if he decides to come back, at least he would be in a better car than the williams

I've also thought about that. Dump Massa for Raikkonen - it'd be an interesting pairing. Would Alonso like being paired with a very capable world champion? I would like to see him make a return no matter what team he drives for.

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

Oh come on. Räkkönen at Ferrari, playing #1b for Alonso? It's not going to happen.

[simonlang]

raikkonen who got beaten by massa at ferrari should now replace him? that just made my day :laugh:

[MightyJordan]

raikkonen who got beaten by massa at ferrari should now replace him? that just made my day :laugh:

You've really got selective memory, haven't you. Yes, Massa beat Kimi in one of the three seasons that they were teammates (2008), but Kimi beat Massa in the other two seasons (2007, 2009), and even won the world drivers championship in '07, something that Massa hasn't done.

Just to compare the two...

2007 Season:

Massa - 4th (94 points)

Kimi - 1st (110 points)

2008 Season:

Massa - 2nd (97 points)

Kimi - 3rd (75 points)

2009 Season:

Massa - 11th (22 points)

Kimi - 6th (48 points)

Now, there is the benefit of the doubt in this season, as Massa only took part in the first ten races, due to his accident, so these were the standings after the first ten races:

Massa - 22 points

Kimi - 18 points

But the main point still stands; Kimi is the better driver overall. He's won a WDC, Felipe Baby hasn't.

BTW, I don't understand why you're such a Ferrari fanboy with a username like "mclaren2". You oughta change it to something else...

[simonlang]

ok this nails it for me. talking about selective memory and then NOT taking into account the fact that massa could only drive half of the season in 2009. till hungary 2009 massa was leading raikkonen by double amount of points. just saying....

[MightyJordan]

ok this nails it for me. talking about selective memory and then NOT taking into account the fact that massa could only drive half of the season in 2009. till hungary 2009 massa was leading raikkonen by double amount of points. just saying....

Double??? Read it again...

Massa - 22 points

Kimi - 18 points

A difference of 4 points; that is not double. Kimi would have had to have 11 points for Felipe to have double the points.