Wolfbane Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 The First Amendment does not apply to the OP and if it does apply in The US so why was prayer taken out of Public School? Because it's a waste of time.There's no reason why students can't pray in their own time (at break), but it's a waste of time (and a breach of the first amendment) to dedicate school time to prayer. Lets turn the table here would any muslim country public school allow non muslim people practice their religion? As if any non-Muslim would dare to practice another religion at a public school in a Muslim country.As for the article (having only read the OP and not bothered reading most of the ~120 replies), it looks like the problem was that the Muslim students were (perhaps deliberately) obstructing other students while making a public presentation of their prayer. If they really felt that they have to pray, they should have asked for a place to pray in private rather than ignoring everyone else, obstructing the corridor and ****ing everyone off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakey Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 For some reason the public school district I attended all my life attempts to do so... Philadelphia School District Religious Involvement Council Like I said, there was no attempt to stop students from practicing their religion when they were in school as long as they didn't attempt to force it onto others. The Philadelphia School District isn't small either, it is the 8th largest in the United States. That seems to be students , setting up groups, outside of school teaching hours. Nothing wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarok Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I'm sorry but if someone saying a silent prayer in some way offends you or you think that they shouldn't be able to say a silent prayer wherever they want, you have severe issues. I understand not wanting to be preached at, I hate being preached at, but the people who get offended by people praying or wearing a religious symbol really need some serious mental asap because that hurts nobody. If people are obstructing traffic or praying in a manner that is disruptive then by all means make a rule about that, but to imply that it's wrong or offensive for someone to say a silent prayer anywhere they want is ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrack Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 The First Amendment does not apply to the OP and if it does apply in The US so why was prayer taken out of Public School? Lets get one thing straight: institutionalized prayer was taken out of public school in the US. I.e, a teacher going in front of the class every morning and leading it in prayer, or forcing another student to go in front of the class to lead the class in a prayer. If you don't see why this is in gross violation of the first amendment, then I don't see a reason to continue this discussion with you :p. But students and teachers are allowed to pray at school. There are even prayer clubs that meet during lunch-time and breaks at many public school and don't forget about the national day of prayer where students and faculty are invited to pray on school campus just before school. The whole "prayer taken out of Public School" is like lying-by-omission. It makes it seem like you will get expelled if you are caught folding your hands and saying a private prayer before eating in the school cafeteria and is dishonest. I'd equate it to spreading propaganda. Wolfbane and +LogicalApex 2 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakey Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I'm sorry but if someone saying a silent prayer in some way offends you or you think that they shouldn't be able to say a silent prayer wherever they want, you have severe issues. I understand not wanting to be preached at, I hate being preached at, but the people who get offended by people praying or wearing a religious symbol really need some serious mental asap because that hurts nobody. You fail to see the whole point. Good job at ranting about something we aren't discussing. ahhell 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarok Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 You fail to see the whole point. Good job at ranting about something we aren't discussing. Nope, all the "pray at home or in churches and not at school or wherever." posts totally weren't talking about that. Not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMH Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 This topic is going on and on. I'm getting bored from following this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaredFrost Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Nope, all the "pray at home or in churches and not at school or wherever." posts totally weren't talking about that. Not at all. I don't know about other people, but my point was not in the hallway or any special room, if you want to go outside or pray at a desk/table, go for it, as long as you aren't in the way or disruptive Being in a hallway or given special treatment by assigning a room is the unacceptable part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakey Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Nope, all the "pray at home or in churches and not at school or wherever." posts totally weren't talking about that. Not at all. They weren't. We are talking about society. Everyone. Not just 1 person. 1 person does not get benefits over another. 1 religion doesn't. 1 group doesn't. We are all equal, and should be treated as such. ahhell 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaredFrost Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Being treated equally doesn't mean everyone always gets everything, it sometimes means denying everyone. Wolfbane, Stoffel and ahhell 3 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarok Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I don't know about other people, but my point was not in the hallway or any special room, if you want to go outside or pray at a desk/table, go for it, as long as you aren't in the way or disruptive Being in a hallway or given special treatment by assigning a room is the unacceptable part. Pretty much how I feel about it yeah. We are talking about society I'm not even sure why you thought I was talking about you? I was talking about the people who DID make those statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gary7 Subscriber² Posted November 30, 2011 Subscriber² Share Posted November 30, 2011 Lets get one thing straight: institutionalized prayer was taken out of public school in the US. I.e, a teacher going in front of the class every morning and leading it in prayer, or forcing another student to go in front of the class to lead the class in a prayer. If you don't see why this is in gross violation of the first amendment, then I don't see a reason to continue this discussion with you :p. But students and teachers are allowed to pray at school. There are even prayer clubs that meet during lunch-time and breaks at many public school and don't forget about the national day of prayer where students and faculty are invited to pray on school campus just before school. The whole "prayer taken out of Public School" is like lying-by-omission. It makes it seem like you will get expelled if you are caught folding your hands and saying a private prayer before eating in the school cafeteria and is dishonest. I'd equate it to spreading propaganda. If you try reading all of this thread you will find that this question was sort of Satirical. You will see that I agree that prayer does not belong in school. Instead of just jumping into a thread and acting like you know it all, try reading it first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basques Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I have the feeling that most people here do not understand how the muslims are praying or doing their daily practices, especially Seizure1990 considering he keeps repeating that it's a silent prayer. It's not. You need a clean surface (that's why they put a carpet), they remove their shoes, and the whole pray consist of kneeling then getting up, moving your hands/arms and repeating this process multiple times. It might take 3-4 minutes or 10 minutes depending on the time of the day and if you are doing it partially or fully (some parts are absolutely required some parts are optional). I definitely wouldn't want to be forced to watch this while on the school grounds and definitely wouldn't want to smell their socks. When I say this I know what I'm talking about, I have been to mosques and prayers many many times as I'm coming from a religious background and was forced to take part in those prayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrack Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 If you try reading all of this thread you will find that this question was sort of Satirical. You will see that I agree that prayer does not belong in school. Instead of just jumping into a thread and acting like you know it all, try reading it first. Oh pleaaaassseeeeee... I'm sure you read every post in this thread and picked up on every sarcastic cue (<---- see that right there, that was sarcasm). Make it more obvious next time, or just accept the fact that your communication was an utter failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArialBlue Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 I'm sorry but if someone saying a silent prayer in some way offends you or you think that they shouldn't be able to say a silent prayer wherever they want, you have severe issues. I understand not wanting to be preached at, I hate being preached at, but the people who get offended by people praying or wearing a religious symbol really need some serious mental asap because that hurts nobody. If people are obstructing traffic or praying in a manner that is disruptive then by all means make a rule about that, but to imply that it's wrong or offensive for someone to say a silent prayer anywhere they want is ludicrous. The point is cultural destruction. Why support it? Why accommodate the people who want sharia law in your nation? Why accommodate people that do not want to adapt to the cultural values of the nation? I mean, sure masochism and masochistic political correctness but thats just nor right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seizure1990 Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Surely if it were the afterlife that was at stake, a solution can be found... Their religion requires them to pray. Not spend money on a private school. What are you trying to prove? I definitely wouldn't want to be forced to watch this while on the school grounds and definitely wouldn't want to smell their socks. Well if you don't want to watch them, that's your problem. Look away, or grow up. And in a highschool full of sweaty, active kids, you're complaining about the smell it makes? You're honestly hilarious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SOOPRcow MVC Posted December 1, 2011 MVC Share Posted December 1, 2011 From my understanding of US law, such things are barred in PUBLIC schools, due to that whole legally required seperation of church and state. Some schools allow it, but are under no legal requirement to do so. Private schools are a different matter and they can do whatever they want. The same legal requirements apply to Germany as well, as far as I know. It's purely discretionary, and can be banned if its disruptive. Of course, they'd have to ban ALL religions from doing the same thing. Your understanding is wrong. School sponsored religions events/activities are banned in public schools as. I had many friends in my public high school who would at least once a week go to a prayer group at lunch on school grounds and in a class room no less. It was all voluntary, which is the key point here. As long as the school isn't sponsoring it, and the students aren't being purposely disruptive, then they are free to do what they wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Unless you can cite a court case or statute agreeing with you I'm going to say you're just wrong on this... The first amendment protects the right of religious persons to practice their religion and, as such, the person would be allowed to pray. The public school wouldn't be allowed to advocate prayer by the students (in any religion), but they wouldn't be allowed to bar a student from prayer either. Many Christian students in my public school life would pray and many would carry Bibles to school with them and read them occasionally. There is no rule saying they were banned from bringing a Bible or praying. The only thing they were not allowed to do was to evangelize and attempt to convert others (but that happens at times anyway). Like Seizure1990 has said, the First Amendment is very clear on this. A quick google search produces... http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org/prayer-in-the-public-schools-faq.htm http://www.religioustolerance.org/ps_prag.htm So, state sponsored prayer is absolutely banned in public schools, no exception. The school IS allowed to permit private prayer organised by private individuals, but they're under no legal requirement to do so and are quite free to say no. +Gary7 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarok Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 The point is cultural destruction. Why support it? Why accommodate the people who want sharia law in your nation? Why accommodate people that do not want to adapt to the cultural values of the nation? I mean, sure masochism and masochistic political correctness but thats just nor right! So you think that somehow a student praying is cultural destruction? Damn. I had no idea that the large Muslim community near where I live, that's been there for ages and been praying for ages and completely not bothering me or anyone else, is destroying our culture somehow. I'll be sure to watch out for that! :shifty: Muhammad Farrukh 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+LogicalApex MVC Posted December 1, 2011 MVC Share Posted December 1, 2011 A quick google search produces... http://www.allaboutp...schools-faq.htm http://www.religious...org/ps_prag.htm So, state sponsored prayer is absolutely banned in public schools, no exception. The school IS allowed to permit private prayer organised by private individuals, but they're under no legal requirement to do so and are quite free to say no. Yes, obviously the school can't promote a religion here in the US. I never said my school, or any public school, would be allowed to push prayer on students. The topic is about students deciding to pray on their own initiative while at school without any provocation whatsoever by school officials. Muhammad Farrukh 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gary7 Subscriber² Posted December 1, 2011 Subscriber² Share Posted December 1, 2011 Oh pleaaaassseeeeee... I'm sure you read every post in this thread and picked up on every sarcastic cue (<---- see that right there, that was sarcasm). Make it more obvious next time, or just accept the fact that your communication was an utter failure. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't but at least it was on topic. And yes I do read through a thread before I post .All of this talk about Cultural destruction and sharia law is way off base. This is about children praying in school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Neo Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 And earlier we were talking about how liberal, secular and civilized the West is. (Y) This has everything to do with Germany being secular. Unlike your country where faith has to be dragged into everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo158 Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 This is no different to me being told I can't meditate in the hallway at uni. You go to school/college/university to learn, not to pray. I used to work at PC World with muslim colleagues and they used to take regular "breaks" to pray. It didn't bother me, but the rest of the staff got annoyed when the store was busy. Not quite the same but I thought i'd post it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArialBlue Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 So you think that somehow a student praying is cultural destruction? Damn. I had no idea that the large Muslim community near where I live, that's been there for ages and been praying for ages and completely not bothering me or anyone else, is destroying our culture somehow. I'll be sure to watch out for that! :shifty: It is also kinda creepy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S00N3R FR3AK Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 From my understanding of US law, such things are barred in PUBLIC schools, due to that whole legally required seperation of church and state. Some schools allow it, but are under no legal requirement to do so. Private schools are a different matter and they can do whatever they want. The same legal requirements apply to Germany as well, as far as I know. It's purely discretionary, and can be banned if its disruptive. Of course, they'd have to ban ALL religions from doing the same thing. No in the US official prayers led by the school are illegal, but students can pray on their own as long as it is not interrupting class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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