Windows 8, enough after about 2 hours

[bigmehdi]

I wish , we could hide the content of a group in start screen, and open it just like a folder.

I find a bit disturbing to juggle between two logics, the applications pinned at taskbar, and the applications pinned at start menu.

Maybe they'll unify better things on windows 9 ?

I'm tempted to call this, "windows wonky edition".

[Southern Patriot]

Now, I have not attempted to print anything, but I don't think we can honestly expect the average user to use shortcuts... You and I may, but I would argue most don't. If there is no way within the UI to print, as far as the average user is concerned, it cannot print...

Exactly. My wife is quite a bit more knowledgeable than the average PC user (she's learned a lot from me over the nearly 13 years we've been together), but I just discovered a month or so ago that she didn't know about the ctrl-p shortcut. If SHE didn't know about it, I'm pretty certain that neither my mother or mother-in-law know about it, and I'm positive that there are hundreds of millions of average users out there that don't either. Hell, I've dealt with hundreds of users myself that didn't even know how to copy and paste from the keyboard.

[Calum Veteran]

Lasted 2 hours. Too frustrating. Back to Windows 7. I want the start menu back!

2 hours isn't long enough for you to have tested it thoroughly with an open mind, attempting your day-to-day tasks using it for a couple of months.

The way you "tested" Windows 8 is exactly how many of those who are complaining about it "tested" it.

[Dot Matrix]

So after playing around with the Windows 8 "Chicago" beta bits, I have to say, I hate the Start Menu. It's unintuitive, ugly to look at, and it takes extra clicks just to find any of my programs! I'm forever digging around in menus! What is Microsoft thinking!? How do they expect us to use something like this!?

Hopefully, Microsoft will give us the option to switch off the Start Menu and go back to the Program Manager. Microsoft, I want my Program Manager back!

[trek]

So after playing around with the Windows 8 "Chicago" beta bits, I have to say, I hate the Start Menu. It's unintuitive, ugly to look at, and it takes extra clicks just to find any of my programs! I'm forever digging around in menus! What is Microsoft thinking!? How do they expect us to use something like this!?

Hopefully, Microsoft will give us the option to switch off the Start Menu and go back to the Program Manager. Microsoft, I want my Program Manager back!

Program Manager was in Windows 95 smartone. Start Menu in windows 8 is not.

[King Lizzle]

One way I've found to bring back some Start Menu functionality is to create a toolbar in the taskbar which goes to this folder:

C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs

As long as you install programs for "All Users" instead of "Just Me" you'll have a menu which basically acts like the All Programs section of the traditional Start Menu.

*oops meant to post this in a different topic but had wrong tab up and can't delete it.

[guru]

Live tiles are more than just gadgets, they're also app icons that can be clicked so you would need to minimise all running apps to access them on the desktop. Just showing the desktop would be pointless.

Opening the start screen to start an app is no more annoying or difficult than opening the start menu to start an app.

who said live tiles were gadgets ? (and even then they could be programmed to start an app)

and why cant live tiles overlayed on desktop start an App,? if the app went full screen so be it. the clicked app gets the focus.

no. opening a full screen 'start screen' with the completely different UI , just to launch apps is annoying..with almost everything needing an extra click, The apps themselves music,movie,mail and calendar are so basic in functionality and such a dull interface... that makes Metro UI a big waste of time.

[tsupersonic]

Just tried it out on my netbook, and I am impressed. The OS as a whole is very touch centric, it just begs for a touchscreen or Kinect. I don't know how I feel about it as a desktop OS, but for any touchscreen, this is just unstoppable. I love how Microsoft is switching the entire design language to Metro (and Ribbon interface), there is now consistency amongst their products, from Xbox, to WP7 to Win 8. If MS offers this OS as a $30 upgrade (student price) like they did for Win 7, I'm all over it.

[bigmehdi]

One way I've found to bring back some Start Menu functionality is to create a toolbar in the taskbar which goes to this folder:

C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs

Nice , but this is far from the convenience of the original start menu (unless we are talking of xp ).

I think I 'd prefer to use the "search" function, on the "charm bar".

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

I wanted to throw my 2 cents in while I lurked....it's different. That said, many people will pick it to death with a fine-toothed comb. Sure, you can find a flaw in anyting (mostly everything, nothing or nobody's perfect)....many people (including myself) had a small problem adapting from DOS to WIN9x for example....but we all learned it, mastered it, and now we are all here, present time, griping about yet another GUI change. People WILL learn to adapt, and WILL learn to move on, that's just the way that innovation was meant to be....you either go with the flow, or you are stuck in the past. Can I write a Windows NT based OS from scratch? No, I don't think so....and neither could the average joe either. Sometimes, as people, we can get stuck in a rut, as I think this is the thinking at microsoft....it seems like to me that they are trying to re-invent the wheel, and while yet, it can only be done so many times, in the computer world, there could be an entire re-invention...slap last generation GUI on top, and there you go, good ol' win9x. Point I'm trying to make is, you can take a crap, make a turd, go back out daily, frost it (if you want with frosting), call it a cake...next day, you could bake into brownies.....no matter what you're not going to change it from what it really is....which is as good an OS as linux and Mac (depending on which one you need at the time)...but at the end of the day, it's about diversity....which is what this good old world is all about. Don't like sprite? Try 7-up.....don't like 7-up...try a generic, but I'll promise you this....it gets better, like wine, with age...and I am not talking about the Linux W.I.N.E. That's just my buck twenty-five. Your price may vary (or opinion)

[Brandon Live Veteran]

no. opening a full screen 'start screen' with the completely different UI , just to launch apps is annoying..with almost everything needing an extra click, The apps themselves music,movie,mail and calendar are so basic in functionality and such a dull interface... that makes Metro UI a big waste of time.

Where are you finding extra clicks? Starting apps should take fewer, not more. One to open Start (no matter where you are), and one to launch the app. On a desktop monitor you can fit many dozens of apps without scrolling (and can scroll very easily without clicking), whereas the old menu could only fit a few unless you added more clicks and scrolling in the All Programs list.

[King Lizzle]

Nice , but this is far from the convenience of the original start menu (unless we are talking of xp ).

I think I 'd prefer to use the "search" function, on the "charm bar".

Unfortunately I think desktop users are going to be left to find sub-optimal workarounds like this to claw back bits of lost functionality. I also made Shutdown and Restart shortcuts on my desktop and added a shortcut to the start up folder to make Windows boot to the desktop. All just made the experience smoother. As for search I could get used to it/tolerate it in the Start Screen IF it would search apps, settings and files at the same time like the Start Menu did. I don't want to have to remember keyboard shortcuts or make extra clicks for that.

[techguy77]

Where are you finding extra clicks? Starting apps should take fewer, not more. One to open Start (no matter where you are), and one to launch the app. On a desktop monitor you can fit many dozens of apps without scrolling (and can scroll very easily without clicking), whereas the old menu could only fit a few unless you added more clicks and scrolling in the All Programs list.

For example in order to shut down computer and numerous other things. Old Start Menu was nearly perfect. You guys had no reason to touch it. Ribbon interface is great idea and bringing it across Desktop was logical. I thought that you guys will only bring Ribbon Interface to Windows 8 and polish UI here and there (nothing major) and focus more on back end like new file system (ReFS), new Taskbar and things like that. People are really not complaining about anything but Metro. Who would guess that would be such a breaker? I also do not understand what is purpose of Charm Bar? Sounds like poor attempt to somehow integrate Desktop and Metro Start Menu together, some sort of connecting point. I understand that your guys approach is that we should look at Desktop just as another app you launch from Metro Start Menu. However that is wrong cause Desktop is main screen for Desktop and Laptops. That's where i want to be. I want to do messaging with friends from Desktop not Metro Style App which is always maximized because while i message with friends on desktop i also monitor load test process for web application i just wrote. I wish i can explain better what i mean all by this and not sound too bad and annoying. There is very simple solution for all this to make Microsoft and people happy. Just give us option to disable Metro and have Old Start Menu back and that's all, and everyone will be happy. Metro makes sense on Tablets and Mobile Phones. I have Windows Phone and i am happy with that interface there and that's the interface i want to be at all the time because it is logical and makes sense given the nature of device itself on which Windows Phone 7.5 is running on. Imagine you bring little Desktop in there which gets in away every time i want to do something. How would i feel? Same as i feel with Metro gettin in my way on Desktop. I just hope Brandon MS will listen to people this time and do what's right. I understand how development process goes i am .NET developer myself. At this point you guys don't need to pull a plug on Metro for Desktop but to give us option again ideally to decide whether we want to run Metro Enabled or Disabled OS during setup process. I guarantee you will have a winner!

[Jose_49]

The search feature is fantastic, much better improved to find what you need.

I don't think so. They removed a very important functionality:

"Display what found". If I press start start searching and then press enter in Windows Vista and 7 I would have already launched the settings/application/file I would need. No need to do extra combination or extra step to achieve it.

They need to recreate a more general search which will display what it is found without filtering it.

[Dot Matrix]

For example in order to shut down computer and numerous other things. Old Start Menu was nearly perfect. You guys had no reason to touch it. Ribbon interface is great idea and bringing it across Desktop was logical. I thought that you guys will only bring Ribbon Interface to Windows 8 and polish UI here and there (nothing major) and focus more on back end like new file system (ReFS), new Taskbar and things like that. People are really not complaining about anything but Metro. Who would guess that would be such a breaker? I also do not understand what is purpose of Charm Bar? Sounds like poor attempt to somehow integrate Desktop and Metro Start Menu together, some sort of connecting point. I understand that your guys approach is that we should look at Desktop just as another app you launch from Metro Start Menu. However that is wrong cause Desktop is main screen for Desktop and Laptops. That's where i want to be. I want to do messaging with friends from Desktop not Metro Style App which is always maximized because while i message with friends on desktop i also monitor load test process for web application i just wrote. I wish i can explain better what i mean all by this and not sound too bad and annoying. There is very simple solution for all this to make Microsoft and people happy. Just give us option to disable Metro and have Old Start Menu back and that's all, and everyone will be happy. Metro makes sense on Tablets and Mobile Phones. I have Windows Phone and i am happy with that interface there and that's the interface i want to be at all the time because it is logical and makes sense given the nature of device itself on which Windows Phone 7.5 is running on. Imagine you bring little Desktop in there which gets in away every time i want to do something. How would i feel? Same as i feel with Metro gettin in my way on Desktop. I just hope Brandon MS will listen to people this time and do what's right. I understand how development process goes i am .NET developer myself. At this point you guys don't need to pull a plug on Metro for Desktop but to give us option again ideally to decide whether we want to run Metro Enabled or Disabled OS during setup process. I guarantee you will have a winner!

Techguy, they had every reason TO touch it! Windows has been around a long time! When it first came out, computing was new. Now they're reshaping it for a new generation of computing technology. With that in mind, "Metro" just makes sense. It works well with the keyboard and mouse (I'm using it right now!), and it'll fit in great with upcoming touch and motion sense technology.

The old Start Menu doesn't do that, does it? Would you sit here and tell me, you rather have that old thing on a kinect based PC? A touch based all in one tablet? I wouldn't. Even though I have a Windows 7 touch-based netbook, and love it, I would rather much have Windows 8 on it.

[9UnknownMen]

who said live tiles were gadgets ? (and even then they could be programmed to start an app)

and why cant live tiles overlayed on desktop start an App,? if the app went full screen so be it. the clicked app gets the focus.

no. opening a full screen 'start screen' with the completely different UI , just to launch apps is annoying..with almost everything needing an extra click, The apps themselves music,movie,mail and calendar are so basic in functionality and such a dull interface... that makes Metro UI a big waste of time.

I agree. Almost having it embedded into the desktop without sacrificing the superbar.

[PGHammer]

Just as intuitive as Windows 95 was to Windows 3.1 users. Very. Sorry but your comparison fails, Metro is nothing like 3.1 to 95.

And what makes you think that 95 *was* intuitive to 3.x users?

[Brandon Live Veteran]

For example in order to shut down computer and numerous other things.

Shutdown/restart is the same number of clicks as Win7. Now it just has a more sensible home (ever since Win95 it's been a common joke to point out the oddity of pressing "Start" in order to shut down).

[jakem1]

who said live tiles were gadgets ? (and even then they could be programmed to start an app)

and why cant live tiles overlayed on desktop start an App,? if the app went full screen so be it. the clicked app gets the focus.

no. opening a full screen 'start screen' with the completely different UI , just to launch apps is annoying..with almost everything needing an extra click, The apps themselves music,movie,mail and calendar are so basic in functionality and such a dull interface... that makes Metro UI a big waste of time.

My comparison to gadgets was referring to the fact that, unlike icons, live tiles display information. That's the only aspect of a live tile that could possibly work if you placed them on the desktop and used show desktop to preview the desktop and see them. Live tiles on the desktop could start an app but to do that (as I said originally) you would force the user to minimise all running apps first and that's the point where your suggestion becomes disruptive and unworkable. If I have half a dozen applications open why would I want to minimise them all just to start another app? I would then have to maximise each of them one at a time to get back to work. How am I better off than if I just opened the start screen? I'm not.

Gadgets on the desktop has been a massive failure precisely because users don't want to use the desktop in the way you described. Your proposal would simply make a bad situation worse and makes no sense anyway since there's nothing wrong with the start screen to begin with.

[PGHammer]

2 hours isn't long enough for you to have tested it thoroughly with an open mind, attempting your day-to-day tasks using it for a couple of months.

The way you "tested" Windows 8 is exactly how many of those who are complaining about it "tested" it.

That is the point I've been trying to make, Callum - their minds weren't open in the least.

It goes back to something I said on a similar subject (computer gaming) - what the detractors of Windows 8 really want is a service pack for Windows 7 (specifically, Service Pack 2) which would be like SP2 for XP was - fixes, new features, but no change to the UI. In a way, that is what Windows 7 was compared to Vista - the UI changed far less from Vista to 7 than from XP to Vista.

Did I have doubts about the Windows 8 Developer Preview? I did - in fact, the new UI was my biggest worry (that and traditional application compatibility). However, I actually put those doubts aside, and used it how a traditional user would. Installed traditional applications. Games. What utilities I actually needed. Surprise - despite the different UI, the applications could care less - they worked as well as the did in Windows 7, if not better. That certainly wasn't the case with Windows 7 at the same point in development - in fact, I can't recall ANY version of Windows being this backward-compatible on traditional hardware (or with traditional hardware, for that matter). Therefore, my two biggest issues are actually non-issues.

Finding out that I could actually get used to *not* having that Windows 7 Start menu was actually the biggest shocker - and that is despite dual-booting the WDP and 7, and on a desktop. However, listening to the detractors, it just illustrates how different I am from them - as a user, as a support person, or even in terms of adjusting to change. (I go with KDE as my preferred desktop environment *because* - not despite - of the resemblance to the standard Windows 7 and earlier UI.)

After the bare-metal upgrade testing was done, I shut down the PC, disconnected my WDP->WCP drive, and started a WCP clean install. Yes; that means *exactly* what it sounds like - Windows 7 was effectlively being *fired*.

I've put back all the games I normally run in Windows 7, and added some new ones (such as Blacklight-Retribution). BR is interesting because it requires PunkBuster - which did have issues in the WDP. However, BR works just fine in the CP - as does PunkBuster.

As I've said before, Windows 8's biggest issue going forward is not the usual double-threat of hardware compatibility and application-compatibility. This time, it's user compatibility.

[Royalty]

For sure. I feel you man. I don't really like the Metro screen a whole lot. Windows 7 IMO is still better.

[migo]

One way I've found to bring back some Start Menu functionality is to create a toolbar in the taskbar which goes to this folder:

C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs

As long as you install programs for "All Users" instead of "Just Me" you'll have a menu which basically acts like the All Programs section of the traditional Start Menu.

*oops meant to post this in a different topic but had wrong tab up and can't delete it.

Clever!

Nice , but this is far from the convenience of the original start menu (unless we are talking of xp ).

I think I 'd prefer to use the "search" function, on the "charm bar".

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't notice, but it's quite handy. Would be nice if you could bring it up with Win+Spacebar so that it's essentially the same as Cmd+Spacebar on a Mac to bring up Spotlight.

[9UnknownMen]

Shutdown/restart is the same number of clicks as Win7. Now it just has a more sensible home (ever since Win95 it's been a common joke to point out the oddity of pressing "Start" in order to shut down).

So Microsoft is now invoking the old jokes of their detractors to tell their user-base to 'get over it'. Mouse over to the top right...invoke the "charms" and then go to power, wait for the menu and click shutdown. I guess I see it.

I guess It's just the same amount of 'time' to find out what the time of day is because there are no "clicks" involved like before? Mouse aerobatics and suddenly It's just more "sensible".

[migo]

I don't think so. They removed a very important functionality:

"Display what found". If I press start start searching and then press enter in Windows Vista and 7 I would have already launched the settings/application/file I would need. No need to do extra combination or extra step to achieve it.

They need to recreate a more general search which will display what it is found without filtering it.

I prefer a fast and targeted search over the couple second delay you get with Windows 7.

[guru]

Where are you finding extra clicks? Starting apps should take fewer, not more. One to open Start (no matter where you are), and one to launch the app. On a desktop monitor you can fit many dozens of apps without scrolling (and can scroll very easily without clicking), whereas the old menu could only fit a few unless you added more clicks and scrolling in the All Programs list.

Toggling between Desktop App and a Metro app takes an extra click.getting the start screen back up and sliding over till i find my music app.

In Win7 its a click on the taskbar button for Music app (Zune,Foobar)

About Starting Apps.. nobody starts all their apps from once the Win8 botts up and shows the start screen. If you are in the middle of word doc and want to start up music and calendar. you have to go back to start screen and then click the app icon.

In Win7,you could just start them from the taskbar (pinned)... Win8 There is an extra step of going to the start screen every time you want to launch an app

I agree. Almost having it embedded into the desktop without sacrificing the superbar.

yes.. atleast someone got what i was trying get at.

That way, the superbar one of the best productivity and user friendly feature of Win7 stays even in metro mode... and Desktop and Start Menu merge to form the 'Start Desktop'. instead of a jarring shift between Metro and Desktop... which in reality will happen all the time as 99% of users will have both Metro and Desktop apps that they would need.