win8 Windows 8 Start button isn't coming back, but there will be a tutorial

[Dot Matrix]

At some point people are going to have to accept the fact that Microsoft is moving on and changing the way we use desktop computing. These 3rd party apps are just delaying the inevitable.

This.

[HawkMan]

Imagine if the metro haters actually tried the start screen, as just that, with an open mind. Just a desktop with a new superior and fully customizable app launcher.

You I know, I stead of just deciding they hate it because it's different, in most cases not even trying it at Allan's then calling anyone who doesn't hate it ultra pro metro fanboys....

[BajiRav]

Must every thread end with ultra-pro Metro people resorting to personal attacks and pointlessness just cuz?

Must every thread end with ultra-anti Metro people resorting to trolling just cuz?

[BajiRav]

A fair portion of Microsoft's customers probably won't either.

quit trolling. seriously, you were neowin's white knight - what's happened to you!

[.Neo]

You guys really need to get over this crap. Seriously, this nonsense is getting old. Things change. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but they change. The 9x launcher is gone. Fine, whatever. In it's place we have a better Start Screen. the quicker we can all accept that and move on, the better. Those who have worked with computers a while should know this. You guys are ****ing and moaning over 17 year old computing paradigm, that has been a little outdated for some time now. The mouse doesn't reign supreme anymore.

You need to get over the fact that not everyone likes this particular change. There's also no reason whatsoever why the start button can't be optional. OS X allows its users to add, remove and rearrange the Launchpad Dock icon as they please. You can also assign it to one or multiple hot corners and a multi-touch gesture. Yet on Windows 8 you're forced to live with a hot corner only? What a joke.

The mouse doesn't reign supreme anymore.

Except cursor input still largely does though within the PC market and will continue to do so if you don't own a tablet.

[.Neo]

quit trolling. seriously, you were neowin's white knight - what's happened to you!

Microsoft lost key markets (phones, portable media players, tablets, browser) because they completely lost touch with large parts of the consumer market. As a result they were blown away by the competition. There's no way you can deny this. I see the same happening with Windows 8: The company thought of a radically new concept (which I find incredibly brave, don't get me wrong), go to great lengths to make the beta program available to everyone for free, only to hardly listen to feedback? Okay then...

You shouldn't underestimate how many customers Microsoft lost in various markets. A lot of them won't be coming back anytime soon if they continue down this path.

If you see this as trolling, so be it. *shrugs*

At some point people are going to have to accept the fact that Microsoft is moving on and changing the way we use desktop computing.

Or just move on to the competition. Which is what happened to Windows Mobile, Internet Explorer, Zune, Windows 7 on a tablet never became a success etc. You're delusional if you think consumers just have to put up with everything a company, any company for that matter, throws at them.

[Dot Matrix]

There's also no reason whatsoever why the start button can't be optional.

Because it's redundant! The Start Screen does everything the Start Menu did and then some! There's no need for the old menu.

[.Neo]

Because it's redundant! The Start Screen does everything the Start Menu did and then some! There's no need for the old menu.

Redundancy isn't necessarily a bad thing. Also why do you keep going on and on about the Start MENU? The thread title talks about the Start BUTTON only and so does the the linked article. There's no mentioning of the Start MENU anywhere. Purely about the Start BUTTON being replaced completely by a OS X-like hot corner or Charm. I'm talking about that you should be able to pin a Start BUTTON to the task bar to bring up the Start SCREEN, similar to how I can add Launchpad to the OS X Dock.

[HawkMan]

There's also no reason whatsoever why the start button can't be optional.

I guess I have to quote myself, I've written this a few times before, even though it should be obvious to most technically literate people on Neowin.

So, you expect Microsoft to:

- code twice as much to maintain to different shell and start menus

- maintain two different launch paradigms, and provide developers with two different ways to manage their apps on windows, when one does it Bette

- make everhing slower with twice as much code

- four times as much debug as twice as much code results in four times the debug.

- at least four times as much QnA for the same reason as debug.

For what, to have an old start menu for absolutely no reason except making stuff slower and wasting both ms and other devs resources?

[HawkMan]

Redundancy isn't necessarily a bad thing. Also why do you keep going on and on about the Start MENU? The thread title talks about the Start BUTTON and so does the the first post. I'm talking about that you should be able to add an opinion start button to the task bar to bring up the Start screen.

You mean like, move mouse to lower left corner and click ?

[.Neo]

I guess I have to quote myself, I've written this a few times before, even though it should be obvious to most technically literate people on Neowin.

Read the above. Your post has absolutely NOTHING to do with what I'm saying. And if you really think everyone follows every single post you write you're sorely mistaken.

You mean like, move mouse to lower left corner and click ?

Move it to wherever you want as it would behave like any other pinned item. Why so many crucial interface elements have to be invisible on Windows 8 is beyond me. It's not like most desktops and laptops don't have screens big enough to accommodate them.

[Xilo]

You're just being silly now. You can continue to run all your applications as you always have on the desktop - the immersive apps aren't compulsory and don't replace the functionality of the desktop. Stop spreading FUD.

Click start or try to change any system settings. You're automatically forced into the crap.

[HawkMan]

It had everything to do with what you where saying. Double and redundant code and functions is bad, not just for MS but for other devs who then would have to take two launcher paradigms into consideration. But mostly for MS, in regards to bug and QnA.

[Elliott]

It had everything to do with what you where saying. Double and redundant code and functions is bad, not just for MS but for other devs who then would have to take two launcher paradigms into consideration. But mostly for MS, in regards to bug and QnA.

Did you even read his posts? He's not talking about having two launcher paradigms. He's talking about having the option to have a Start Button that takes you to the Start Screen (like in the Windows 8 Dev Preview).

[Brandon H Supervisor]

Click start or try to change any system settings. You're automatically forced into the crap.

right click on the start area in the bottom left and use the power menu

[.Neo]

It had everything to do with what you where saying. Double and redundant code and functions is bad, not just for MS but for other devs who then would have to take two launcher paradigms into consideration. But mostly for MS, in regards to bug and QnA.

Are you dense or something? I'm PURELY and ONLY talking about being able to pin a Start BUTTON to the task bar that will take you to the Windows 8 Start SCREEN. It has NOTHING to do with the inclusion of a traditional Start MENU alongside the Start screen. NOWHERE do I talk about a Start MENU.

And are you kidding me? Windows 8 already is one big pile of double and redundant functions: Desktop and Metro running within one and the same OS? Two versions of Internet Explorer?

[BajiRav]

Microsoft lost key markets (phones, portable media players, tablets, browser) because they completely lost touch with large parts of the consumer market. As a result they were blown away by the competition. There's no way you can deny this. I see the same happening with Windows 8: The company thought of a radically new concept (which I find incredibly brave, don't get me wrong), go to great lengths to make the beta program available to everyone for free, only to hardly listen to feedback? Okay then...

You shouldn't underestimate how many customers Microsoft lost in various markets. A lot of them won't be coming back anytime soon if they continue down this path.

If you see this as trolling, so be it. *shrugs*

It's incredibly naive to think that Microsoft doesn't know what they are doing..:p well at least when it comes to Windows. It is almost incredibly stupid to think that no one will buy Windows 8 because there is no start button (which is what your post implied). If neowin's history has taught me anything about pre-release Windows is this - there is always one vocal group of people who bitch, moan and swear to death to stick with n-1 version because they don't like what Microsoft has done in version n. When the time comes, they will get in line and use it.

I am sure they are paying attention to feedback and if I may guess - they probably guessed pretty much all of it beforehand but are taking hard stance on it. The same thing happened with Office 2007 and Ribbon. A group people resisted change but ultimately ribbon turned out to be a better paradigm for Office apps.

History repeats.

[.Neo]

It's incredibly naive to think that Microsoft doesn't know what they are doing.. :p well at least when it comes to Windows.

Windows Mobile, Zune, Internet Explorer, Windows Longhorn, Windows 7 on tablets all come to mind. They're all examples of visions Microsoft had that weren't shared by most of the public, or do you pretend Microsoft deliberately wanted those products to fail?

It is almost incredibly stupid to think that no one will buy Windows 8 because there is no start button (which is what your post implied).

That's not what I implied at all, pretty weird you try to make it come across as such. The start button is only one of many examples in Windows 8 where Microsoft has made a decision that is being received poorly by the public.

If neowin's history has taught me anything about pre-release Windows is this - there is always one vocal group of people who bitch, moan and swear to death to stick with n-1 version because they don't like what Microsoft has done in version n. When the time comes, they will get in line and use it.

Or they'll simply walk away and use something else. We've seen this happen within other markets as well. Granted there aren't many other options to go to right now, but that could change.

I am sure they are paying attention to feedback and if I may guess - they probably guessed pretty much all of it beforehand but are taking hard stance on it. The same thing happened with Office 2007 and Ribbon. A group people resisted change but ultimately ribbon turned out to be a better paradigm for Office apps.

The Ribbon within Office is definitely something that turned out to be a good idea, however that doesn't mean other ideas haven't or will blown up in their face either.

[HawkMan]

Windows mobile, only truly smart prone OS of its time, and reigned spreme in that market untill iPhone. When people wanted simplicity over power and customizability... Hmm seems fair, maybe they learnt something from this

Zune, took a small but still very significant percentage of the us PMP market, especially in numbers.

Internet explorer, still most used Webb browser, and 9 and 10 is growing.

Longhorn was redone into vista which was the best seling windows OS before 7. And still a very good OS.

Windows 7 on tablets was a very successfull product for IT'S niche market, which is not the pad market, but professional business use that needs the security of the OS and artists who needs a tablet and to a finger paint pad.

Not being shared by the public doesn't mean failure, especially since for many it wasn't the intention, and for Zune, ie and longhorn/vista just not true, heck the"public" didn't even know about longhorn.

[Salutary7]

The people who really want the start button back will type their question into Google and get relevant search results. Perhaps Win8 will just be an OS with more 3rd party mods than usual.

[BajiRav]

That's not what I implied at all, pretty weird you try to make it come across as such. The start button is only one of many examples in Windows 8 where Microsoft has made a decision that is being received poorly by the public.

Sorry but that's exactly what you said...start button isn't coming back and significant portion of customers won't either.

A fair portion of Microsoft's customers probably won't either.

Windows Mobile, Zune, Internet Explorer, Windows Longhorn, Windows 7 on tablets all come to mind. They're all examples of visions Microsoft had that weren't shared by most of the public, or do you pretend Microsoft deliberately wanted those products to fail?

That's not what I implied at all, pretty weird you try to make it come across as such. The start button is only one of many examples in Windows 8 where Microsoft has made a decision that is being received poorly by the public.

Or they'll simply walk away and use something else. We've seen this happen within other markets as well. Granted there aren't many other options to go to right now, but that could change.

The Ribbon within Office is definitely something that turned out to be a good idea, however that doesn't mean other ideas haven't or will blown up in their face either.

In which world Internet Explorer is a failed product? Windows Longhorn was never resulted in a consumer product so not sure why you list it there. Did you mean Vista? it wasn't a failure either.

Windows Mobile was actually a significant OS that declined due to MS' negligence but it wasn't a failure from the start.

So in that list I would say only Zune and Windows on tablets (XP, V & 7) are the two failures. To quote you these are Microsoft's visions not shared by "most some of the public" but you know other such products that public talked down before release? Does Xbox ring a bell? How about Windows Server? SQL Server? (not really a consumer product).

Public perception/opinion matters to a certain extent but most of "public perception" in neowin boils down to these two types,

1. Metro is bad because metro is bad

2. Metro is bad because I don't like change.

I haven't seen any other type of response yet.

Ultimately I might be wrong and Microsoft will change course in Windows 9 but you know what? Windows 8 will still sale like hotcakes no matter how much people moan about an insignificant change such as removal of start button.

To offer some constructive input on this thread: I think one of the reasons start button was removed is accidental inputs on a tablet but that's just my guess. I still don't understand why this is a major issue for people.

[techguy77]

Sorry but that's exactly what you said...start button isn't coming back and significant portion of customers won't either.

In which world Internet Explorer is a failed product? Windows Longhorn was never resulted in a consumer product so not sure why you list it there. Did you mean Vista? it wasn't a failure either.

Windows Mobile was actually a significant OS that declined due to MS' negligence but it wasn't a failure from the start.

So in that list I would say only Zune and Windows on tablets (XP, V & 7) are the two failures. To quote you these are Microsoft's visions not shared by "most some of the public" but you know other such products that public talked down before release? Does Xbox ring a bell? How about Windows Server? SQL Server? (not really a consumer product).

Public perception/opinion matters to a certain extent but most of "public perception" in neowin boils down to these two types,

1. Metro is bad because metro is bad

2. Metro is bad because I don't like change.

I haven't seen any other type of response yet.

Ultimately I might be wrong and Microsoft will change course in Windows 9 but you know what? Windows 8 will still sale like hotcakes no matter how much people moan about an insignificant change such as removal of start button.

To offer some constructive input on this thread: I think one of the reasons start button was removed is accidental inputs on a tablet but that's just my guess. I still don't understand why this is a major issue for people.

Metro is not bad but Desktop implementation of Metro is wrong. Simply put, Metro is not for PC. In mobile world works and it is fine interface. Can you use Desktop interface on your little Windows Phone? Nope you cannot because it is unusable, same applies for Metro on my big 27" LCD connected to PC. MS mixed apples and oranges and it is really not hard to understand.

[MorganX]

The people who really want the start button back will type their question into Google and get relevant search results. Perhaps Win8 will just be an OS with more 3rd party mods than usual.

Definitely, cuz it needs fixin'. There's already a Start Page wallpaper changer. Kinda going backwards in a lot of areas. It's all about apps, which at the moment there are none for obvious reasons.

[MorganX]

right click on the start area in the bottom left and use the power menu

On this one I actually like the Charm bar...

[MorganX]

Must every thread end with ultra-anti Metro people resorting to trolling just cuz?

I actually don't follow the regular troll/anti-troll crowd. Sounds like personal issues to me. Usually it's just someone who has nothing intelligent left to offer and can't make a counterpoint and doesn't have the good sense to just say nothing and move to another thread. You never know how old the person on the other end is I suppose. Part of Internet life.