win8 Windows 8 Start button isn't coming back, but there will be a tutorial

[Order_66]

Metro just needs time to mature.

Yep, 10 more years of 'maturing' should do it.

[Order_66]

Actually I'm pretty sure it's doomed to sell millions on new laptops, desktops, and slate/pad devices. As well as millions on upgrades for the more tetchy people who do that, and a few business who are in an upgrade cycle during the period after win8 goes for sale and before win9 is out in another couple of years.

The sad part about your obvious fanboyism is that millions of laptops and desktops will be sold with windows 8 already installed on them, a consumer will not have a choice and MS and their fanboys will tout 8 as being a huge success based solely on the numbers of machines that had 8 pre installed, not on the number of actual copies sold.

MS and their fanboys did this with vista despite the fact that it was a huge failure and I am sure they will do it with 8.

[Order_66]

Windows 8 is doomed for failure.

I wonder how long it will be before an "upgrade to 7" will be available like they did with vista and the "upgrade to XP".

[Dot Matrix]

The sad part about your obvious fanboyism is that millions of laptops and desktops will be sold with windows 8 already installed on them, a consumer will not have a choice and MS and their fanboys will tout 8 as being a huge success based solely on the numbers of machines that had 8 pre installed, not on the number of actual copies sold.

MS and their fanboys did this with vista despite the fact that it was a huge failure and I am sure they will do it with 8.

But the consumer DOES have a choice. If they don't want Windows, don't buy it. But otherwise, this argument is decades old and very tiresome. Microsoft changes things. Boo hoo. Nothing new here.

So the start screen can be reduced to take up less than a quarter of the screen and have installed programs in list format?

Just because something changed doesn't mean it's better and certainly doesn't mean we should just accept it and move on

If that's how it worked nothing would actually change, because we'd all just accept things how they are.

The "All Apps" menu does. If you really wanna torture yourself and dig through that. Otherwise, just use the frakking search feature.

[Order_66]

But the consumer DOES have a choice. If they don't want Windows, don't buy it. But otherwise, this argument is decades old and very tiresome. Microsoft changes things. Boo hoo. Nothing new here.

Yeah tell grampa that he has a choice when, at age 80, finds himself forced to purchase a new laptop because his old one died, but when he goes to best buy all they have are windows 8 machines, he doesn't have the first clue about what he's looking at and has to go thru a bunch of time-wasting crap just to be able to install and use his family tree maker software, file his medicare claims, VA claims or worse yet, was using his old laptop to run a small business and now he's losing money because he has to put himself thru some tutorial just to use an operating system that shouldn't have even been on a non-touch screen machine in the first place.

Yeah, good job Microsoft.

Change is good, but it's got to be for the better, not for the worse.

[Dot Matrix]

Yeah tell grampa that he has a choice when, at age 80, finds himself forced to purchase a new laptop because his old one died, but when he goes to best buy all they have are windows 8 machines, he doesn't have the first clue about what he's looking at and has to go thru a bunch of time-wasting crap just to be able to install and use his family tree maker software, file his medicare claims, VA claims or worse yet, was using his old laptop to run a small business and now he's losing money because he has to put himself thru some tutorial just to use an operating system that shouldn't have even been on a non-touch screen machine in the first place.

Yeah, good job Microsoft.

Change is good, but it's got to be for the better, not for the worse.

Yup. You're right. **** Windows 8. Microsoft should just support Windows 7 forever and close up shop. **** them for trying to innovate. :rolleyes:

[Arceles]

I'm pretty sure I will be asked to downgrade a lot of "Windows 8" machines, and, unlike vista, this time I will say "wise decision, be sure to keep it updated though"

[BajiRav]

So the start screen can be reduced to take up less than a quarter of the screen and have installed programs in list format?

Just because something changed doesn't mean it's better and certainly doesn't mean we should just accept it and move on

If that's how it worked nothing would actually change, because we'd all just accept things how they are.

How do you know it's not better? "better" is a subjective argument.

Yeah tell grampa that he has a choice when, at age 80, finds himself forced to purchase a new laptop because his old one died, but when he goes to best buy all they have are windows 8 machines, he doesn't have the first clue about what he's looking at and has to go thru a bunch of time-wasting crap just to be able to install and use his family tree maker software, file his medicare claims, VA claims or worse yet, was using his old laptop to run a small business and now he's losing money because he has to put himself thru some tutorial just to use an operating system that shouldn't have even been on a non-touch screen machine in the first place.

Yeah, good job Microsoft.

Change is good, but it's got to be for the better, not for the worse.

Grandpa can always turn around a buy a mac instead, they are always on an adjacent table at best buy.

[Dot Matrix]

Yeah tell grampa that he has a choice when, at age 80, finds himself forced to purchase a new laptop because his old one died, but when he goes to best buy all they have are windows 8 machines, he doesn't have the first clue about what he's looking at and has to go thru a bunch of time-wasting crap just to be able to install and use his family tree maker software, file his medicare claims, VA claims or worse yet, was using his old laptop to run a small business and now he's losing money because he has to put himself thru some tutorial just to use an operating system that shouldn't have even been on a non-touch screen machine in the first place.

Yeah, good job Microsoft.

Change is good, but it's got to be for the better, not for the worse.

Yup. You're right. **** Windows 8. Microsoft should just support Windows 7 forever and close up shop. **** them for trying to innovate. :rolleyes:

Afterall, that is what you are asking them to do. They're trying to move on from the Windows 95 paradigm, and you're wanting them to stay back while the greater market as a whole, innovates and moves on. Eventually, if Microsoft were to do what you are suggesting, they would either have to make even more drastic changes to keep up with the market or follow your commands and quietly find themselves closing up shop after the market moves too far ahead. Thankfully, they're not listening to every dumb*** "power user" out there who somehow feels entitled to have options for every little OS control, and are trying to innovate a OS that can run on multiple pieces of hardware without breaking compatibility or requiring the need to maintain multiple operating systems. For users and developers alike, this is a win-win.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Dot Matrix

[JaredFrost]

How do you know it's not better? "better" is a subjective argument.

Obvioiusly because I've used it.

To me, taking up the whole screen with animated icons, invisible menus and using gestures, it's the opposite of better, I believe the technical term is worse.

And I am in no way and never have said Metro should be removed, I've been saying the whole time there should be the choice, it's the only blind-fan-Metro

side that keeps saying "Metro only, don't like it? kbye."

EDIT:

Much like you said about Order_66's grandpa.

[Andrew Lyle Global Moderator]

Woooohoooo! Can't wait for vista 2.0. Microsoft needs to get off its high horse from windows 7 and listen to feedback.

They sure did after vista, and that worked out fine.

Good job Microsoft, proving the trend right, good, bad, good, bad, good, windows 8???

[JaredFrost]

But the consumer DOES have a choice. If they don't want Windows, don't buy it. But otherwise, this argument is decades old and very tiresome. Microsoft changes things. Boo hoo. Nothing new here.

The "All Apps" menu does. If you really wanna torture yourself and dig through that. Otherwise, just use the frakking search feature.

Yes Microsoft changes things, but previously they've given the choice to disable the new feature, this is the first major change where they've removed choice. choice was a major feature in itself

And it's going to hurt them for removing it.

Vista wasn't bad in comparison to this so there will either be a downgrade to Windows 7 option, or Microsoft is going to pay OEMs a hell of a lot of money to not provide that option.

and really? the All Apps menu doesn't take up the whole screen? seeing as it's in Metro I find that hard to believe

And there you guys go again saying, don't like it don't buy it. While this is an option for some people like me, most others this wont be a viable option.

[Brandon H Supervisor]

And there you guys go again saying, don't like it don't buy it. While this is an option for some people like me, most others this wont be a viable option.

the "If you don't like it, don't buy it" is more pointing towards power users like us on Neowin

most causal users won't really care one way or the other about the change as long as they can still get on the internet to get on facebook and look at their email

[migo]

Or just move on to the competition. Which is what happened to Windows Mobile, Internet Explorer, Zune, Windows 7 on a tablet never became a success etc. You're delusional if you think consumers just have to put up with everything a company, any company for that matter, throws at them.

Windows Mobile was never dominant. People moved from IE because MS stopped developing it, it might as well have been deprecated. Zune again was never dominant. Anyone who thinks they're going to escape Metro and have a real desktop experience on OSX is dreaming. It's back to yearly release schedules and Apple's going all in with the touch based interface as well, and Linux will never be viable (and even they're going with a touch focus, Gnome 3 makes sense for a touch screen, but much less sense with a regular desktop or laptop).

[Calum Veteran]

I wonder how long it will be before an "upgrade to 7" will be available like they did with vista and the "upgrade to XP".

There's a big difference between that and this. The Desktop mode of Windows 8 actually works better than in Windows 7 (it includes the same features and more). The only difference is that the Start Menu has been removed. But the Start Screen does everything the Start Menu did (just in a different way), so you still have all of the functionality there; Windows 8 is just faster. The general consensus among those who don't like Windows 8 appears to be that if the Start Menu was in Windows 8, the Desktop mode of Windows 8 would be much better than Windows 7. So I believe your suggestion is silly.

[migo]

Here's a simple reason why people will want to stick with Windows 8 - the refresh your PC without affecting files option. No matter what system you're running, eventually you start experiencing problems. That's something almost any user can default to without having to get tech support.

[George P Global Moderator]

It's almost amazing how this thread is still going with the same arguments being tossed about for 13 pages. I'm almost impressed.

People who think MS will lose customers because of the start screen as being a big change to the UI seem to be missing a few things. What will they do exactly? Stick with Windows 7? If that's the case MS hasn't lost anything, a windows OS sale is a windows OS sale. What else? Go to the Mac? If the problem is the UI being changed then going to the Mac is an even BIGGER UI change. So how does that actually make sense?

It seems to me the power users on neowin still think the majority out there views tech like they do, hardly the case. People can easily adapt to new UI's otherwise the iPhone and iPad wouldn't have worked since they're so different. And people wouldn't be buying all these smartphones with different UIs left and right. Besides, whatever dip in PC desktop sales MS might see with Windows 8 they'll make up in new tablet and portable netbook/ultrabook sales the way I see it. And when touch is the main interaction method on those devices then the new UI does very well.

Of course this cycle of bitching every time MS makes a visible change to the OS isn't new but it's getting tiresome, even comical, at this point.

[c3ntury]

If you need a tutorial then something has gone wrong.

Not really, for people who are computer competent, this change isn't going to be strange.

But for the masses? The lack of a start button all of a sudden for *zero* explanation will be confusing (although not through the fault of Microsoft, who are merely trying to progress their OS towards a new UI). A tutorial would solve that.

[Active.]

It seems to me the power users on neowin still think the majority out there views tech like they do, hardly the case. People can easily adapt to new UI's otherwise the iPhone and iPad wouldn't have worked since they're so different.

You can't seriously claim that the fact that people have adapted to the iOS UI must mean they can easily do so or are willing to do so with any new UI that comes along. Windows 8 as a whole is far far harder to use and more complex than iOS. If techies find Windows 8 confusing and schizophrenic at times (with the whole switching between Metro and the desktop "experience" ), it'll be worse for regular people, not better. The only way around that would be if someone could stay basically 100% of the time in the Metro environment, and we'll have to see whether that's possible. But even if that becomes possible, the question is why someone then wouldn't just get an iPad (or Windows ARM tablet).

[Active.]

That's because it's a "Hot Corner", you move the cursor away from the corner, and yes, it'll disappear.

Which is all I was saying as a response to you calling it a "start button". It's not a button but a preview of where you'll go when you click in the corner. As I see it, the actual "button" is in the corner. And to make it a little easier, you're not required to click the exact corner, but can also move the mouse slightly away from it again. But you're right in that it is easily confused with a button, which is why you see people in videos trying to click the preview instead of the corner. We'll see whether MS will make further improvements to this.

Interestingly enough, it does actually become what looks and behaves like a regular button if you move the cursor upwards along the left edge of the screen (at which point the multitasking bar on the left is activated) and then move the cursor back inside of the area of the "start preview". :/

[Dot Matrix]

You can't seriously claim that the fact that people have adapted to the iOS UI must mean they can easily do so or are willing to do so with any new UI that comes along. Windows 8 as a whole is far far harder to use and more complex than iOS.

No, no. Metro is by all means *simple* to use. And users can certainly use the desktop no biggie. The learning curve for Windows 8 is smaller than you think.

I mastered it in less than a day of using the CP (I never used the DP for very long), and if I can do it, so can others.

[Active.]

I mastered it in less than a day of using the CP (I never used the DP for very long), and if I can do it, so can others.

I think you're selling yourself short. ;)

[George P Global Moderator]

Windows 8's UI isn't going to be harder to learn compared to say, a whole new OS which is basically what people are using more and more be it on one of the tablets or a smartphone. I don't quite see the distinction here, so what if they're on mobile platforms and not your desktop, we're talking about UI and peoples ability to pick up new things.

Maybe it's just me and how I've used different UI's from time to time but I see it done often with common people and other "devices" and they manage to figure it out just as well. There's no reason that Windows 8 should be different. I also don't think it's harder to use than iOS, why would it be? Once people know you can do things with the corners of the screen the rest is simple to work out. And by and large the start screen is there to start apps. When you break it down to it's base function it's just a full screen start menu, hardly that complicated.

[Rickkins]

I think most of us are suggesting that the Desktop should die once Metro has matured enough.

Wrong, the only thing that should die is metro, it stinks, at least when used on desktop. Furthermore, any ms employee who supported forcing this turd onto desktop users ought to be fired. Perhaps when win8 flops.....

[Stoffel]

Wrong, the only thing that should die is metro, it stinks, at least when used on desktop. Furthermore, any ms employee who supported forcing this turd onto desktop users ought to be fired. Perhaps when win8 flops.....

Thanks for your constructive contribution!