win8 Windows 8 Start button isn't coming back, but there will be a tutorial

[migo]

It already exists, it's called "Windows 7"

Right, so they clearly do know what they're doing. In fact, they knew what they were doing with Vista. In some areas they were a bit too idealistic, but when it came to making the GPU more importand for the desktop, and building in a solid security model, they had it right. Install Vista on a new system today and you won't have the same complaints you had with it when it launched - there's a reason on the server end the Windows 7 equivalent is called Server 2008 R2.

Windows 8 might be a hugely hated OS like Vista (although not nearly to the same degree as its system requirements are lower than 7, whereas Vista was waaaay higher than XP), with everyone saying MS finally got it right with Windows 9, but when you look back and compare, you'll see that 8 and 9 are inherrently the same OS, and they got it right from the start.

[migo]

There are problems with Metro workflow. Say in an email when you read a PDF, close PDF, back to metro. And the way context menus are being handled is unacceptable and steps waaaay backwards. But, these are early early apps. I can't imagine real Metro applications killing in place context sensitive menus.

No, in the Metro workflow, you're in an email, open a PDF, the PDF opens, then to get back to the email you just mouse over to the top left corner and click, and you're instantly back to the email app you were in. No need to close anything - Windows 8 will do it for you if it needs the RAM. That's better than what you had before with Windows 7 - if you need to get back to the email program without closing the PDF (it might need to stay open if you're checking multiple things in it), you have to mouse over to wherever on the taskbar the email program is and click on it. That's slower than Windows 8. Even if you try to speed it up in Windows 7 by closing the PDF program, the close button isn't exactly in the corner of the screen, so it's still slower to get to than the absolute corner to just flip back to your previous program in Windows 8. The reason you have a problem with the Windows 8 Metro workflow is because you're using it wrong.

[Dot Matrix]

It already exists, it's called "Windows 7"

Then fine. Use that. Let the desktop evolve in piece. We'll be up ahead when you decide you want to catch up (If you can catch up).

[chrisdoland]

Start Button is coming back! Microsoft has decided that the Metro interface will default for touch devices and they are working on code for the Metro desktop. Apparently user feedback has left Microsoft unsure of sales. They like $$. Did you really think they would say "take it or leave it, we don't care about $" ? Microsoft is driven by sales and the majority of testers have all said they would not use on a desktop. Microsoft cutting out all desktop PC sales & upgrades to home users & corporate enterprises? Fool yourselves!

[MorganX]

No, in the Metro workflow, you're in an email, open a PDF, the PDF opens, then to get back to the email you just mouse over to the top left corner and click, and you're instantly back to the email app you were in. No need to close anything - Windows 8 will do it for you if it needs the RAM. That's better than what you had before with Windows 7 - if you need to get back to the email program without closing the PDF (it might need to stay open if you're checking multiple things in it), you have to mouse over to wherever on the taskbar the email program is and click on it. That's slower than Windows 8. Even if you try to speed it up in Windows 7 by closing the PDF program, the close button isn't exactly in the corner of the screen, so it's still slower to get to than the absolute corner to just flip back to your previous program in Windows 8. The reason you have a problem with the Windows 8 Metro workflow is because you're using it wrong.

Yeah I understand that, I have 32GB. I closed hoping to be back in email. I consider having to task switch to be a workflow problem. Not nearly as efficient as clicking an X real quick or a minimize button. The controlled Prev App bar will keep a lot of Metro hate alive. No wonder MS made closing such a drag, "almost" makes constantly going over to prev app bar seem efficient.

I'll definitely be sticking with outlook with the Explorer UI. Too much mail for all that nonsense.

[MFH]

you have to mouse over to wherever on the taskbar the email program is and click on it.

Wrong, ALT+TAB

Even if you try to speed it up in Windows 7 by closing the PDF program, the close button isn't exactly in the corner of the screen, so it's still slower to get to than the absolute corner to just flip back to your previous program in Windows 8.

Wrong, ALT+F4

The reason you have a problem with the Windows 8 Metro workflow is because you're using it wrong.

Seems that applies to you on the desktop?

[MorganX]

Start Button is coming back! Microsoft has decided that the Metro interface will default for touch devices and they are working on code for the Metro desktop. Apparently user feedback has left Microsoft unsure of sales. They like $$. Did you really think they would say "take it or leave it, we don't care about $" ? Microsoft is driven by sales and the majority of testers have all said they would not use on a desktop. Microsoft cutting out all desktop PC sales & upgrades to home users & corporate enterprises? Fool yourselves!

The Start Button would be nice I hate the lego tile thing, hate it; but the Start Menu doesn't really need to come back. Metro just needs real apps (and someone should start showing some) and perhaps some UI tweaking based on the complaints if they actually listen to what they are.

The fact that the UI causes more work/time as opposed to shortcut keys, whereas the Explorer UI was so optimized and built for productivity that it, for a while, allowed us to forget about shortcut keys, is telling. What that says is Metro needs tweaking. Of course, as I said, stay in desktop and you're fine, but I really would like to go full on Metro when apps arrive. I do believe it can be optimized for productivity. But at the moment, other than attempting to do hardcore email and calendaring, there's no need. There's only play apps and games there.

[HawkMan]

Dual screen screens are revolutionizing tablets ? Where ? When?

Ae you talking bout he horrible Sony tablet with horrible battery time, terrible usability and who no reviewer have yet to understand why they did dual screens since its not adding anything to the device, just making it worse.

[JaredFrost]

Do even you know what you're saying, or trying to ?

And have you ever coded a single line in your life, or have any clue about how programming on a large scale project that needs to be as stable as an OS used by hundreds of millions. Because you sure don't sound like it.

Small hint, EVERY little change has to be tested, and not just the chane, every function and module and code that uses the changed, code, uses something that uses is, or uses another function in the same library as the code is in, in case the code has unfortunate serial effects. Basically a small change, causes a cascade effect of stuff that needs to go through QnA. Even if it's just a typo fix in the code.

This isn't some hobby project to code your own little FOSS media player. It's a major operating system.

Here you go again with that, yes it will cost money, will it be a lot? to people like us, yes, to Microsoft no, adding it will increase the usability of their product and in turn sales of that product

I guess you don't think creating jobs and helping the economy is a good thing.

[HawkMan]

No it won't add to usability, it will add a REDUNDANT and replicated system, adding the same functionality that's there, only improved based on millions of user statistics and how they use windows. And adding it in for the small minority that uses it differently is not worth the cost I future QnA and especially not the cost in delayed security patches.

[HawkMan]

Also helping the economy's not a charity. MSis there to make money, not give it away. And you can't just throw more people at a problem and expect it to be solved faster. For some QnA yes, it works that way, for others, not at al, it could in fact slow it down. As to much gets thrown back the the coders to fast to fix, so everything gets stuck there while QnA have nothing to do, then everything is bounced back, but because everything is done to fast and all at once there's more bugs again because of inner module changes and you end up with a longer QnA cycle and long periods of the bigger QnA pool not having anything to do.

[JaredFrost]

No it won't add to usability, it will add a REDUNDANT and replicated system, adding the same functionality that's there, only improved based on millions of user statistics and how they use windows. And adding it in for the small minority that uses it differently is not worth the cost I future QnA and especially not the cost in delayed security patches.

Those user statistics are unreliable at best, data sharing with Microsoft can be turned off, and usually is., people see that and think Microsoft wants to watch what they do, so they turn it off.

If it were the same functionality then there wouldn't be a problem would there?, because it would be the same and there would have been no change in the first place.

Also helping the economy's not a charity. MSis there to make money, not give it away. And you can't just throw more people at a problem and expect it to be solved faster. For some QnA yes, it works that way, for others, not at al, it could in fact slow it down. As to much gets thrown back the the coders to fast to fix, so everything gets stuck there while QnA have nothing to do, then everything is bounced back, but because everything is done to fast and all at once there's more bugs again because of inner module changes and you end up with a longer QnA cycle and long periods of the bigger QnA pool not having anything to do.

Of course they aren't, but it's in their best interest sales wise to include both for now, in the future the cost vs benefit might not be worth it, but right now, it very much is in their best interest to include both

Not doing it could mean complete failure for Metro on the desktop. Which I am perfectly fine with.

[migo]

Wrong, ALT+TAB

Wrong, ALT+F4

Seems that applies to you on the desktop?

Wrong, that requires taking my hand off the mouse and moving it to the keyboard, which takes longer. If you're using only keyboard shortcuts, there's no slow down going to Metro.

[migo]

Those user statistics are unreliable at best, data sharing with Microsoft can be turned off, and usually is., people see that and think Microsoft wants to watch what they do, so they turn it off.

If it were the same functionality then there wouldn't be a problem would there?, because it would be the same and there would have been no change in the first place.

Oh well, no need to cater to them. Cater to the people who submit the anonymous usage statistics so the OS gets improved according to their needs.

[JaredFrost]

Oh well, no need to cater to them. Cater to the people who submit the anonymous usage statistics so the OS gets improved according to their needs.

And if the people who don't submit the data is a larger group than the people who do? then what?

[MFH]

Wrong, that requires taking my hand off the mouse and moving it to the keyboard, which takes longer. If you're using only keyboard shortcuts, there's no slow down going to Metro.

So you press ALT+TAB with your right hand? Or are you left handed? ('cause then you're the minority and therefor not important for changes in the next release of Windows!)

[Ulpian]

I run business - helpdesk for common people and small companies. I sense A LOT of new work hehehe, "Explaining crappy interface", "Installing third-party menu start" etc.

[JaredFrost]

I run business - helpdesk for common people and small companies. I sense A LOT of new work hehehe, "Explaining crappy interface", "Installing third-party menu start" etc.

Support nightmare, but lots of money to be made.

[HawkMan]

Those user statistics are unreliable at best, data sharing with Microsoft can be turned off, and usually is., people see that and think Microsoft wants to watch what they do, so they turn it off.

If it were the same functionality then there wouldn't be a problem would there?, because it would be the same and there would have been no change in the first place.

Of course they aren't, but it's in their best interest sales wise to include both for now, in the future the cost vs benefit might not be worth it, but right now, it very much is in their best interest to include both

Not doing it could mean complete failure for Metro on the desktop. Which I am perfectly fine with.

Unreliable at best ? usually turned off ?

err, no, they're not usually turned off, the average user just clicks yes through everythign, as for unreliable. MS is quite aware of how many report, they get the reports, and they are many many many millions of computers reporting anonymous usage statistics. far more than needed for correct statistical usage data.

The only users who turn it off are paranoid users who are or think they are power users. they are a minority to start with, and if their usage isn't coutned because they choose not to share. well thats' their own damn fault isn't it. MS can't build an OS tailored to people who refuse to tell them how they use the OS.

And no it's not in their best interest to include both options. it costs tens of millions both now and down the line, it costs delays of important patches. it confuses users when they need to be guided down a single line of usage. and there's no point. except for a very few scenarios of which there's only ONE person even on this forum who uses, there's no benefits to the old start menu.

and metro won't fail, not as long as people are still buying laaptops, desktops and slates/pads(they're not tablets, tablets have an actual tablet/digitizer in them, hence why they're called tablets, and is a different niche market)

[Rickkins]

Fine. YOU design an OS that's used by millions. Let's see how better you do.

It already exists, it's called "Windows 7"

Game, set, match...

[HawkMan]

And if the people who don't submit the data is a larger group than the people who do? then what?

They're not, there's 100 or even 1000 regular click yes on everything users, for every wannabe power users. and most power users are smart enough to see that reporting usage stats is good. How else is MS supposed to tailor the OS to their needs.

[Dot Matrix]

It already exists, it's called "Windows 7"

Fine. Now evolve that OS to play nice with both desktops and tablets (no, building two separate OSs doesn't count), AND include a compatibility layer that will allow me to run Windows Phone apps. Go!

[+Warwagon MVC]

Fine. Now evolve that OS to play nice with both desktops and tablets (no, building two separate OSs doesn't count), AND include a compatibility layer that will allow me to run Windows Phone apps. Go!

Wouldn't have to build 2 separate OS's they already exist

Windows 7 for the desktop

Windows Phone 7 for Touch screen devices.

[Som]

Fine. Now evolve that OS to play nice with both desktops and tablets (no, building two separate OSs doesn't count), AND include a compatibility layer that will allow me to run Windows Phone apps. Go!

windows 8 = windows 7 tablet edition

[Dot Matrix]

Wouldn't have to build 2 separate OS's they already exist

Windows 7 for the desktop

Windows Phone 7 for Touch screen devices.

That doesn't answer my question. How would YOU take a desktop OS used my billions and evolve it to meet tomorrow's technologies? Keeping around a 1990's paradigm isn't going to do that. Just look at how archaic Mac OSX is in most spots.