win8 Windows 8 Start button isn't coming back, but there will be a tutorial

[+Warwagon MVC]

*facepalm*

Are you really going to mix up things to try and prove a weak point here? Windows 8 on the desktop works because it still supports the keyboard and the mouse fully. We're talking tablets and touch and to that extent all the core OS features/options on Win8 can be accessed and used from the start screen with your figures on a tablet without issue either. That's the difference between a simple top layer skin UI and having the OS shell itself re-done. Also performance is key, unless you think loading a "skin" or top-layer UI over explorer as another process would be faster?

Sure the start menu has become more touch friendly, But on an X86 tablet you are in a Metro UI then dumped back to the desktop were you are still touching icons and small menus inside regular desktop applications. How exactly has that changed since the Tablet PC day's?

You even said yourself "Once you dig a bit lower you run into the same old problems yet again." a.k.a leaving metro and going back to the desktop.

[MorganX]

Doesn't change the fact we are still touching icons and folders and drop down menus.

Not quite. Drop down menus on the Metro Start Page would be kinda nice actually, roflmao. I'm out. No fun when only extremists are left, lol.

Meet in the middle.

[George P Global Moderator]

Can't see the forest for the trees. It's doesn't matter that the specific slide from almost 10 years ago specifically talked about Pens. Pen Tablets are also touch tablets and if MS had delievered those type of apps and UI, iPad absolutely would not be dominating IMO. The simple fact is all these promises and concepts are not new, and have not always been delievered on.

MS was way ahead in the tablet game and just dropped the ball, completely.

So take it all with a grain of salt and reality. Or, dream on.

The ball was dropped by a few yet my point stands. The slide talks about skinning an OS that, at the time, couldn't run well on tablets anyways from a performance and battery side let alone the UI. Honestly, even had they skinned XP more at the time it ran like a dog and nothing close to what the iPad brought to the game when it landed. In the end all you're really doing is putting lipstick on a big. They did the same thing with Windows Mobile 6.x and that went nowhere. You have to make core OS changes from the top down not just toss on a new layer with bigger objects and call it a day.

[+Warwagon MVC]

You have to make core OS changes from the top down not just toss on a new layer with bigger objects and call it a day.

How is the desktop on Windows 8 on a x86 not just like WM 6.5 with a touch UI on top.

You have this when you turn it on

But if you go back to the desktop you are dropped into this on a tablet.

[George P Global Moderator]

Sure the start menu has become more touch friendly, But on an X86 tablet you are in a Metro UI then dumped back to the desktop were you are still touching icons and small menus inside regular desktop applications. How exactly has that changed since the Tablet PC day's?

You even said yourself "Once you dig a bit lower you run into the same old problems yet again." a.k.a leaving metro and going back to the desktop.

Because the difference is that even on a x86 tablet you don't have to go to the desktop unless you want to run a desktop app. The fact is that the start screen isn't just a touch UI for the sake of having a touch UI, it's a part of the shell that runs touch apps, metro apps. What you and some others are talking about, just adding a new skin to the desktop, is just that, a skin and then you're back to the desktop and desktop apps. Win8 brings with it WinRT and metro apps that means even on a x86 tablet if all you use are those things you'll never have to see the desktop. Look at where ARM versions are, those have the desktop to but no access to desktop apps outside of Office 15. There is no reason on ARM to go to the desktop unless you want to use Windows Explorer for some advanced file management, that's about it. EVERYTHING else can be accessed and done by the new UI for tablet users.

The clear difference between the two options is there, had this only been a simple tablet skin and nothing else we'd be right back to the same problem we've had for 10 years with Windows on tablets, but it's not a skin so when it comes to tablets, even when access to the desktop for x86 is there, it's a non-issue for users only they go there by choice, something a skin wouldn't really give you. I point to Windows Mobile 6.x again as the perfect example of skinning not fixing the underlying problem at all.

[George P Global Moderator]

How is the desktop on Windows 8 on a x86 not just like WM 6.5 with a touch UI on top.

You have this when you turn it on

But if you go back to the desktop you are dropped into this on a tablet.

Because you're going to the desktop by choice? Why would I need to go to the desktop on a tablet, even an x86 tablet, if I don't need to use desktop apps? A simple skin like done in WM6.x doesn't bring with it things like WinRT and metro apps that DON'T NEED THE DESKTOP!

If all you use are metro apps you will never see or use the desktop. My point stands.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Because the difference is that even on a x86 tablet you don't have to go to the desktop unless you want to run a desktop app. The fact is that the start screen isn't just a touch UI for the sake of having a touch UI, it's a part of the shell that runs touch apps, metro apps. What you and some others are talking about, just adding a new skin to the desktop, is just that, a skin and then you're back to the desktop and desktop apps. Win8 brings with it WinRT and metro apps that means even on a x86 tablet if all you use are those things you'll never have to see the desktop. Look at where ARM versions are, those have the desktop to but no access to desktop apps outside of Office 15. There is no reason on ARM to go to the desktop unless you want to use Windows Explorer for some advanced file management, that's about it. EVERYTHING else can be accessed and done by the new UI for tablet users.

The clear difference between the two options is there, had this only been a simple tablet skin and nothing else we'd be right back to the same problem we've had for 10 years with Windows on tablets, but it's not a skin so when it comes to tablets, even when access to the desktop for x86 is there, it's a non-issue for users only they go there by choice, something a skin wouldn't really give you. I point to Windows Mobile 6.x again as the perfect example of skinning not fixing the underlying problem at all.

Good Job Mate! A post I'll finally agree with you on.

Although the Metro environment at the moment does feel pretty limited and useless. I have about as much fun in the Metro UI as I do on my computer when my internet is down. Though I hope that will change by the time it RTM's.

[George P Global Moderator]

Good Job Mate! A post I'll finally agree with you on.

Although the Metro environment at the moment does feel pretty limited and useless. I have about as much fun in the Metro UI as I do on my computer when my internet is down. Though I hope that will change by the time it RTM's.

The new UI will show it's stuff when more apps use it IMO. It's not different on the desktop, how much fun is the desktop UI without apps to run on it and do what you like? To that extent I also agree that the start screen needs a few more options/tweaks to let users customize and mange things better.

As far as the desktop goes, I honestly thing it's time is up, we won't see it in Win8 but I have no doubt that Win9 will bring desktop changes. MS can't move fast and do a big UI change like with Win95 because of it's market position really, things were different back then. When you see the systray go, because I think that's the next thing to change, then you know it's coming.

I think the systray will be dumped in favor of a better notification area in the new UI.

[Dot Matrix]

I think the systray will be dumped in favor of a better notification area in the new UI.

I think the Systray will be moving to a spot on the Start Screen, personally.

[MorganX]

The ball was dropped by a few yet my point stands. The slide talks about skinning an OS that, at the time, couldn't run well on tablets anyways from a performance and battery side let alone the UI. Honestly, even had they skinned XP more at the time it ran like a dog and nothing close to what the iPad brought to the game when it landed. In the end all you're really doing is putting lipstick on a big. They did the same thing with Windows Mobile 6.x and that went nowhere. You have to make core OS changes from the top down not just toss on a new layer with bigger objects and call it a day.

The point being Microsoft could not deliver on the vision and has made many glorious promises from WinFX to WinFS. Take it with a grain of salt. And Metro is an appless vision at the moment on the Desktop.

[George P Global Moderator]

I think the Systray will be moving to a spot on the Start Screen, personally.

Well, there's room for it, sure, but I dunno. You could have it in the bottom hidden till you mouse down, but then what if you want to use the scroll bar? The 4 corners are taken up so far so? Unless you have a row of smaller "tiles" as the systray under the bigger tiles?

I think the better option would be to just move all of that into a notification window that would slide in from the side like other things do. We'd have to see some concepts first and I'm no graphic artist. heh.

[Dot Matrix]

Well, there's room for it, sure, but I dunno. You could have it in the bottom hidden till you mouse down, but then what if you want to use the scroll bar? The 4 corners are taken up so far so? Unless you have a row of smaller "tiles" as the systray under the bigger tiles?

Not really. There's room for it just about anywhere. I would assume it could appear in a user tile like menu, or even on the "All Apps" bar Windows 8 has no, when you right click.

[migo]

So you press ALT+TAB with your right hand? Or are you left handed? ('cause then you're the minority and therefor not important for changes in the next release of Windows!)

I eat at my computer. Mouse with one hand, eat with the other.

[migo]

That doesn't answer my question. How would YOU take a desktop OS used my billions and evolve it to meet tomorrow's technologies? Keeping around a 1990's paradigm isn't going to do that. Just look at how archaic Mac OSX is in most spots.

And the changes OSX is making are pretty much the same ones Windows 8 is making. Launchpad in Mountain Lion includes search. They're getting the same functionality and trying to push people in the same direction, but by tacking it on as an app instead of making it a core feature.

[George P Global Moderator]

The point being Microsoft could not deliver on the vision and has made many glorious promises from WinFX to WinFS. Take it with a grain of salt. And Metro is an appless vision at the moment on the Desktop.

All those old Vista, actually, longhorn visions didn't come, true, but parts of them did in some form. While we never got WinFS parts of it made it's way into SQL. As for WinFX, uhh, it's alive and well, it's called .NET and there are lots of .NET coders and apps out there in use so that's more or less there. The thing that didn't happen is that it never replaced Win32, if that's what people expected. WinRT can though, at some point, but it'll take time. When the desktop changes come so will WinRT support for the desktop come as well. For now it's limited to the new UI, by choice I'd say seeing as it's a v1.0 product.

[migo]

Live tiles are overrated. I mean, who's gonna stare at the Start Page waiting for an update? It will be great on Tablets. If meaningful apps cross all three platforms, it will be worth the annoyance of Metro on the desktop.

Only if they're done poorly. I never have to stare at my screen on Windows Phone to see the live tile updates, they're always there right away. If the live tile makes me wait I just get rid of that app and find a better one.

[migo]

There's a difference between change for the sake of change and change for the sake of improving something.

Whilst I don't really care about Windows in the slightest, I still don't understand the adamant stone walling that they're doing and removing the ability to choose between the old interface and the new one, certainly it's not that hard to create - even Linux people have managed it for many, many years.

Forcing it on people will just make them resentful.

Look at how unsuccsessful Linux is, if anything Linux doing it is a great reason not to do it.

[George P Global Moderator]

Not really. There's room for it just about anywhere. I would assume it could appear in a user tile like menu, or even on the "All Apps" bar Windows 8 has no, when you right click.

I dunno how hiding it away in the all apps list would be good, that kinda kills the idea behind the systray though if we're talking metro apps they use their live tiles to replace that functionality. If we're talking about showing desktop app notifications on the new UI then it'd have to be done in a fashion that it'd get your attention without you having to go open an area and look manually. GNOME 3 uses the lower right corner as the notification area, but it's hidden and uses popups/tooltips when an app or something needs your attention.

I think dumping the systray icons fully and replacing it with a notification popup like that in GNOME works fine and then the icons themselves could be placed into a area in the UI like you say where you can go to manually to interact with them like you can now on the desktop.

[migo]

Why wouldn't we be talking about the iPad? That's talking about using a pen/stylus, unless you're writing or drawing something people in general would rather use a finger as a touch input object rather than a stylus/pen. In the end the iPad still would've won over users IMO.

Besides, OEMs could've, for years, skinned Windows on their tablets, yet how well did that work? And skinning is a half-assed approach to the problem because it's only the top layer. Once you dig a bit lower you run into the same old problems yet again.

It's not necessarily a matter of preference for finger over stylus, it's that eventually everyone loses the stylus.

[migo]

How is the desktop on Windows 8 on a x86 not just like WM 6.5 with a touch UI on top.

You have this when you turn it on

But if you go back to the desktop you are dropped into this on a tablet.

You don't seem to understand that once more Metro apps are released, this won't be happening.

[MorganX]

All those old Vista, actually, longhorn visions didn't come, true, but parts of them did in some form. While we never got WinFS parts of it made it's way into SQL. As for WinFX, uhh, it's alive and well, it's called .NET and there are lots of .NET coders and apps out there in use so that's more or less there. The thing that didn't happen is that it never replaced Win32, if that's what people expected. WinRT can though, at some point, but it'll take time. When the desktop changes come so will WinRT support for the desktop come as well. For now it's limited to the new UI, by choice I'd say seeing as it's a v1.0 product.

You made my point. Grand visions stripped down to realistic, scaled way down, implementations. It's the same cycle, we'll have to wait to see what actually sticks. Because MS promises and produces something, doesn't mean it will deliver. They're much better than Google in that regard, but in the consumer space, it's always a wait and see with MS based on track record.

[migo]

Good Job Mate! A post I'll finally agree with you on.

Although the Metro environment at the moment does feel pretty limited and useless. I have about as much fun in the Metro UI as I do on my computer when my internet is down. Though I hope that will change by the time it RTM's.

That's an app selection issue, not anything to do with Windows 8.

[George P Global Moderator]

You made my point. Grand visions stripped down to realistic, scaled way down, implementations. It's the same cycle, we'll have to wait to see what actually sticks. Because MS promises and produces something, doesn't mean it will deliver. They're much better than Google in that regard, but in the consumer space, it's always a wait and see with MS based on track record.

MS stopped making big promises since longhorn though. They never made any with Win7 and they're not with Win8 unless I'm missing something? I don't see the new UI in win8 as something like WinFS which we never really saw in use at all outside of concepts. Since Win7 they've just added things that were ready to use without talking them up.

[MorganX]

Only if they're done poorly. I never have to stare at my screen on Windows Phone to see the live tile updates, they're always there right away. If the live tile makes me wait I just get rid of that app and find a better one.

Actually on a phone or tablet, a live tile is what you want. Bits & Bytes of info you can get at a glance becuase you're doing other things.

On a desktop, you're sitting in front of it doing something. It makes no sense to sit at a desktop, staring at a Start Page catching glimpses of bits & bytes of info. If you're at the computer, you can get the info more efficiently by other means that are probably more accessible.

Live tile gadgets, that would be another story. Doesn't add much on a desktop that Status Tray Notifications, Gadgets, or icon badgets cant do.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them, just overrated on the desktop.

[HawkMan]

. Pen Tablets are also touch tablets

No, theyre not. A tablet is a tablet, tablets use a pen with a pressure sensitive magnet in it, that is detected by a system underneath. They're also called digitizers but not commonly anymore, especially since the old fashioned targeting reticle pucks went out of fashion with tablets.

Either way, a tablet and a talet pc, uses a pen, a touch screen is something completely different. Some talet pc's have both touch and tablet today. Old style touch screens, ie resistive, used a pen but they where also not what you're referring to as pen tablets, just pressure sensitive touch screens.

Pad and slate form computers should not be referred to as tablets, tablets are tablet pc that have an actual tablet and is a different niche market.