win8 Windows 8 Start button isn't coming back, but there will be a tutorial

[Jose_49]

Why include both when the Start Screen does the same as and more than what the old Start Menu did?

At the moment it does not.

[migo]

This actually makes no sense to me. It is neglible and not the issue. They didn't take it away to avoid "redundant" code. They took it way to move people and developers to Metro, period. It's their product and they can do that for wahtever purpose and on whatever timeline they want. Their customers don't have to like it, but will eventually have to buy it unless it pulls a WindowsMe or Vista, which is unlikely.

Moving everyone to Metro is a good thing. Windows program installation is a total mess, with only Linux being worse. Mac OS and OSX have always been better in this department, most programs install by just dragging them to the applications folder, and unstialling is as simple as dragging them to the trash. With Windows 8 and Metro program installation will finally be similarly straight forward and hassle free.

[MorganX]

Moving everyone to Metro is a good thing. Windows program installation is a total mess, with only Linux being worse. Mac OS and OSX have always been better in this department, most programs install by just dragging them to the applications folder, and unstialling is as simple as dragging them to the trash. With Windows 8 and Metro program installation will finally be similarly straight forward and hassle free.

It remains to be seen, but the potential is there. It will be all about the applications. Not the tablet applets, but on the desktop, the applications. I'm not mad at what MS is doing, I'm mad that at this point they provided no option.

The only negatives for me are the Prev app bar, which isn't even present on tablets (or at least not my Slate 500) and the preview apps don't handle context menus well. The context bar at the bottom of the screen is not good, but that's just preview apps.

I'm going to go clean install on my desktop this weekend after taking full image. In-place didn't work out well.

But the notion that the Start menu is gone because of resources should just go away. lol. no more, please.

[HawkMan]

Yeah, I'm sure MS relishes the thought of millions of extra QnA for every future patch, and over a weeks extra delay on every security patch to test against an old deprecated system.

[migo]

Stripping out as much as possible is a good thing. If the Linux community could agree on a few good things instead of spreading out their work on thousands of options they might have been able to make something to compete with Windows or even OSX by now.

[George P Global Moderator]

I can't wait to see what people will say when MS starts to change the desktop next and having a start menu wouldn't fit anywhere in the UI.

[migo]

If they get rid of the taskbar that's exactly what will happen. And I really wouldn't mind seeing the taskbar go as long as legacy apps show up in the app switcher list at the left.

[techguy77]

If they get rid of the taskbar that's exactly what will happen. And I really wouldn't mind seeing the taskbar go as long as legacy apps show up in the app switcher list at the left.

Bottom line MS has no idea what they are doing....

[+Warwagon MVC]

They took the start button away for consistency.

You mean the same consistency, of having 1 OS with 2 very different user experiences, Metro and Aero! Smashed together? That consistency?

[migo]

Bottom line MS has no idea what they are doing....

No, they know exactly what they're doing.

[migo]

You mean the same consistency, of having 1 OS with 2 very different user experiences, Metro and Aero! Smashed together? That consistency?

You're not seeing the long time picture here. To keep backwards compatibility they have to do something, but the consistency they're going for is Xbox 360, Windows Phone and Windows all have a similar UI that works the same way. Apple is going the same way - Apple TV, iOS and OSX looking the same way. iOS wasn't as drastic a change from OSX as Windows Phone was from any prior UI, so the OSX changes are more subtle. It's part of building an ecosystem.

[MorganX]

Yeah, I'm sure MS relishes the thought of millions of extra QnA for every future patch, and over a weeks extra delay on every security patch to test against an old deprecated system.

Just wow. You really sound like you believe this anectdotal reality is in fact a major concern. Every Tuesday in fact. The old depreciated system which is the dominant system right now, and for the next 5-10 years. ::sigh::

[MorganX]

No, they know exactly what they're doing.

Depends on what and who you're talkign about. MS is such a big bureacracy they trip over their own feet. Clearly they often times don't know what they're doing. The Server division does. However, getting their arse handed to them by Apple and Android despite having significant headstarts in smartphones AND tablets would suggest in these areas they don't know what they're doing and are figuring it out as they go.

Even though they finally have the phone right, despite billions of dollars of investment, they release Windows Phone without complete bluetooth profiles so developers, who are longing to do so, cannot provide their bluetooth lifestyle peripherals, primarily heart rate monitors, for Windows Phone. Even though otherwise technically superior, they will never overtake iOS or even Andorid, both of which have this area covered. These lifestyle apps and devices are crucial, that's the buying market. The same one that wants simplified tablets and striped down desktop interfaces.

Clearly, despite plenty of cash and technical talent, management at Microsoft is sorely lacking. Say what you want about Bill Gates, he had a vision that since his departure is absent from MS. All the money in the world can't make up for boneheaded management and lack of vision.

[HawkMan]

Just wow. You really sound like you believe this anectdotal reality is in fact a major concern. Every Tuesday in fact. The old depreciated system which is the dominant system right now, and for the next 5-10 years. ::sigh::

Do even you know what you're saying, or trying to ?

And have you ever coded a single line in your life, or have any clue about how programming on a large scale project that needs to be as stable as an OS used by hundreds of millions. Because you sure don't sound like it.

Small hint, EVERY little change has to be tested, and not just the chane, every function and module and code that uses the changed, code, uses something that uses is, or uses another function in the same library as the code is in, in case the code has unfortunate serial effects. Basically a small change, causes a cascade effect of stuff that needs to go through QnA. Even if it's just a typo fix in the code.

This isn't some hobby project to code your own little FOSS media player. It's a major operating system.

[JRosenfeld]

Speak for yourself. Live tiles are getting praise on Windows Phone.

It's called convergence of technology. Why have two operating systems, when you can converge your resources into one?

Because users have different needs. Convergence may be convenient for rthe supplier, not for the customer. Should we all dress exactly alike? After all, why have so many different styles of shirts or shoes when you could 'converge resources' into a single model of each...

[migo]

Depends on what and who you're talkign about. MS is such a big bureacracy they trip over their own feet. Clearly they often times don't know what they're doing. The Server division does. However, getting their arse handed to them by Apple and Android despite having significant headstarts in smartphones AND tablets would suggest in these areas they don't know what they're doing and are figuring it out as they go.

They got their ass handed to them in tablets because they did what you are suggesting for Windows 8 - make a slow transition with options that you can enable or disable, rather than an all in change that just gets everyone up to speed. Windows XP Tablet Edition was just some extra layers on top of XP, Vista made no changes and just integrated them in. 7 actually made some active UI changes for a touch/tablet focus, but it still wasn't enough. They can't just half ass it, they need to go all in. With Windows Mobile they realised they just needed to cut their losses and re-enter with an entirely new platform.

You're right that they didn't know what they were doing in the past, but the lunacy of it is that you're suggesting that by continuing to do exactly that they'd be doing the right thing.

Even though they finally have the phone right, despite billions of dollars of investment, they release Windows Phone without complete bluetooth profiles so developers, who are longing to do so, cannot provide their bluetooth lifestyle peripherals, primarily heart rate monitors, for Windows Phone. Even though otherwise technically superior, they will never overtake iOS or even Andorid, both of which have this area covered. These lifestyle apps and devices are crucial, that's the buying market. The same one that wants simplified tablets and striped down desktop interfaces.

Here's where bug testing comes in, something you evidently just don't understand. It's better for Windows Phone to currently be feature limited, and for buyers to just know that the feature is missing and they'll need to go elsewhere for the time being than for a feature to be implemented in a half-assed way and create stability problems and make for a horrible reputation for Windows Phone. webOS never recovered from the poor rep the build quality of the Pre bought. MS is better off making a simple phone that's stable and makes calls without running out of juice, with any other features being a bonus, and slowly adding features. They won't get the huge marketshare yet, but at this point everyone who has a Windows Phone is very happy with it, and that kind of word of mouth is incredibly valuable in the long term.

Clearly, despite plenty of cash and technical talent, management at Microsoft is sorely lacking. Say what you want about Bill Gates, he had a vision that since his departure is absent from MS. All the money in the world can't make up for boneheaded management and lack of vision.

Bill Gates is apparently the guy who killed Courier, on account of it apparently cannibalising office, so it's not as if he was the brilliant guy and Ballmer is the buffoon. Sometimes management makes the wrong decision, sometimes it makes the right one. Lately MS has been making all the right decisions.

[Rickkins]

Bottom line MS has no idea what they are doing....

Seems about right to me.

[antsy]

Why don't they just make it optional. Reminds me of when I was complaining about Apples only have one button mice and how frustrating it was to constantly be having to click and hold rather than being able to right click, and then these Apple hipsters would all be going on about how it makes the "interface simpler" or some bull**** like that, I tell you what would be a really easy simple interface, a one button keyboard, really simple but ****ing frustrating and ****ing useless.

However if the second button was there but it offended them so much, then don't ****ing use it.

[MFH]

I tell you what would be a really easy simple interface, a one button keyboard, really simple but ****ing frustrating and ****ing useless.

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEQQRtgAjgA :)

[MorganX]

>>They got their ass handed to them in tablets because they did what you are suggesting for Windows 8 - make a slow transition with options that you can enable or disable, rather than an all in change that just gets everyone up to speed. <<

That's just ridiculous. They simply had no touch UI on touch devices and had no style nor a connection to non-technical consumers. Bob wasn't even close.

>>Here's where bug testing comes in, something you evidently just don't understand. It's better for Windows Phone to currently be feature limited, and for buyers to just know that the feature is missing and they'll need to go elsewhere for the time being than for a feature to be implemented in a half-assed way and create stability problems and make for a horrible reputation for Windows Phone.<<

Again, just ridiculous. They simply did not, could not or would not produce a complete Bluetooth stack whereas Apple and Google have. This isn't something you drop for a "bug test." And yes, people will go elsewhere until they get it right. With a billion dollars there's no excuse.

>>Bill Gates is apparently the guy who killed Courier, on account of it apparently cannibalizing office, so it's not as if he was the brilliant guy

Courier as in dual screen tablets, the same dual screen tablets that are currently revolutionizing tablet computing? At a time when you have no popular tablet OS for a single screen? No, not brilliant to shelve that at all. If you're referring to something else, I'm unaware of what you're talking about.

You sound as though you're just reaching for any remote excuse for the sake of making and excuse. I won't respond to anymore pure nonsense.

Edit: That's you migo, didn't even notice. You know you get into defend at all cost mode sometimes. Come on. Especially on the Bluetooth stack, you're being ridiculous.

[MorganX]

Why don't they just make it optional. Reminds me of when I was complaining about Apples only have one button mice and how frustrating it was to constantly be having to click and hold rather than being able to right click, and then these Apple hipsters would all be going on about how it makes the "interface simpler" or some bull**** like that, I tell you what would be a really easy simple interface, a one button keyboard, really simple but ****ing frustrating and ****ing useless.

However if the second button was there but it offended them so much, then don't ****ing use it.

The one-button market was the one Apple wanted. Affluent, and not necessarily wanting to "learn" context menus. Just enough to get whatever few tasks they were doing done without too much thought about the computer.

The cost was developers never consistently implemented context sensitive menus on the platform pervasively. Now Metro, is actually headed in that direction.

[MorganX]

Native install went much better than upgrade. Kudo to MS for all the driver support including Texas Instruments USB 3.0 Chipset. They did not have my Belkin N300 Wireless adapter but once I plugged in and older adapter with a driver in the distro, the driver was available. The only thing I have to go get is the infamous SM Bus Controller.

Performance is great except the Store and most Metro apps have poor scroll performance. Transitions are nice though. Bluetooth was a breeze, most of the metro control screens are so fast they're not so bad on 24".

I have to say, if they could actually beef up the Mail/Calendar Metro apps a little, it would be nice to drop Outlook, but the Metro apps have a looong way to go.

I have to say, I do love the custom lock screen, such a little thing. No app reinstall time ? :/

[Dot Matrix]

Bottom line MS has no idea what they are doing....

Fine. YOU design an OS that's used by millions. Let's see how better you do.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Fine. YOU design an OS that's used by millions. Let's see how better you do.

It already exists, it's called "Windows 7"

[MorganX]

You actually don't bring up the start menu that often. And if you have a good PC, lol, you don't reboot/restart/logoff that often. So once you go to the desktop, you don't have to see Metro that much and the metro control elements are pretty quick and actually not that bad.

Once there's a hack to show the desktop behind metro, all will be good.

There are problems with Metro workflow. Say in an email when you read a PDF, close PDF, back to metro. And the way context menus are being handled is unacceptable and steps waaaay backwards. But, these are early early apps. I can't imagine real Metro applications killing in place context sensitive menus.

The driver support is awesome and if they don't provide that level of support in Windows 7 SP2, bite the bullet.