Just how many people hate Windows 8?

[HawkMan]

I'd say the browser issue is more about jealousy and entitlement.

[Order_66]

I'd say the browser issue is more about jealousy and entitlement.

Jealousy and entitlement by whom?

[Denis W. Veteran]

This is a forum where members have various ideas on things like Windows. If you can't understand that an OS is not a trivial choice then maybe Neowin needs to close or change their format to something that does not involve technology.

You seem to miss the point of what a forum is for. To discuss issues, likes and dislikes. If the management here thought this was going on for 2000 pages they would have locked it by now .

You're making the error of assuming my own opinion of this matter represents forum policy.

[Alan Lau]

my 2 cents:

Windows 8 is actually not as bad as one might think but it boils down to the user themselves ... many had the mentality "If the thing aint broken, why fix it" ... sad to say this is one very reason that hinders technology advancement but that's another story ...

the Metro UI, its very suitable for light entertainment especially on touch screen equipment such as tablets and phones. my elderly at home was complaining that it looks weird but in the end they love it b cos the "buttons" or tiles to be exact serve their purpose well ...

the desktop, is suitable for heavy users who rely on the many functions that the desktop can provide.

if you are a heavy desktop user, you will definitely hate the Metro UI ... it looks stupid and it is definitely of no help in work.

if you are an elderly will a poor eye vision, you will love the Metro UI ... and you will definitely wish that the smart phones has button this big too ...

[Growled Member]

my 2 cents:

Windows 8 is actually not as bad as one might think but it boils down to the user themselves ...

if you are a heavy desktop user, you will definitely hate the Metro UI ... it looks stupid and it is definitely of no help in work.

I agree, I don't care for Windows 8 myself but I have largely moved away from Windows in my personal computing. I use Android (phone and tablet) and Chrome OS for most of my computing. Windows 8 can be made to do what you want it to do very simply. The reaction to Windows 8 seems mostly an over reaction.

[MorganX]

Jealousy and entitlement by whom?

the browser issue is a fairly simple one. Microsoft has desktop dominance (looking in the past, achieved by some arguably unfair if not illegal practices). They can now use that dominance to distribute their browser, for free. The browser is seen as a separate and competitive market.

Using their desktop monopoly to distribute their free browser is seen as anticompetitive in this market. Same thing goes for media player I believe in the EU which is why you have the Enterprise K & N versions of Windows that do not include these features.

Clearly, even if inferior, the majority of people will use a "free" browser that comes on their PC already. Given the benefits and influence of dominating the browser market, this is seen as uncompetitive without giving equal opportunity for said distribution to competitors. Without leveraging it's desktop monopoly, I'm not sure anyone believes Internet Explorer would have become the dominant browser.

Ahhhh, memories of Netscape and ClubIE.

[Growled Member]

Without leveraging it's desktop monopoly, I'm not sure anyone believes Internet Explorer would have become the dominant browser.

Probably not but it wasn't like today, with a zillion choices.

[MorganX]

[/size]

Probably not but it wasn't like today, with a zillion choices.

True. I'm really not passing judgment, that's how things were done back then, though MS had the advantage of DOS licensing money to rule the roost. It's clearly many in IT today have no clue how the current hierarchy was built. Few probably know SQL started as Sybase and the code was licensed to Microsoft and eventually became SQL Server. Or that MS co-developed OS/2 with IBM until around Windows 3.0. While OS/2 was superior in several ways, Windows became a huge success at that time primarily because it was bundled with new PCs. lol. It did have superior driver support as well. Windows NT actually was to be the most current release of OS/2 when IBM Microsoft parted ways. There was some issue over how IBMs funds were being used to develop Windows instead of OS/2 I believe, lol. Shrewd I tell ya.

Microsoft should be a case study in technology 101, and Shrewd Ruthless Business 101-303. :D TBH, IBM money built Microsoft, DOS, and Windows.

Edit: And Windows Server

[Nashy]

I bought it and gave it a go. MS gave me a refund. Hate it. I think it's horrible to use, I think it looks horrible, I just can't stand it. I think MS have turned into a bunch of *******s too.

[HawkMan]

if you are a heavy desktop user, you will definitely hate the Metro UI ... it looks stupid and it is definitely of no help in work.

if you are an elderly will a poor eye vision, you will love the Metro UI ... and you will definitely wish that the smart phones has button this big too ...

But that isn't true. The desktop and the start screen work together. As a heavy desktop user, the start screen and modern UI is a more effective launcher for my apps,as for looks that's highly subjective, but I like the minimalist clean look that instantly make me find the apps I need amidst my pinned most used apps.

[Noir Angel]

I'd say the browser issue is more about jealousy and entitlement.

Microsoft have purposely limited access to the 2D and 3D browser rendering APIs to make competing products run poorly within the "modern" environment. It's a move straight out of the Apple book and I hope they do get canned for it.

[HawkMan]

The the modern enviorment is a high security environment. Apps don't have free roam in there.

Want free roam, stick to the desktop. And for windows RT be glad you're allowed in at all.

[Noir Angel]

Limiting access to rendering APIs is nothing to do with security, in fact I've never even seen in recent times a security vulnerability carried out through exploiting those APIs, it's about hindering performance.

[ahhell]

Microsoft have purposely limited access to the 2D and 3D browser rendering APIs to make competing products run poorly within the "modern" environment. It's a move straight out of the Apple book and I hope they do get canned for it.

This belongs in "It's a conspiracy!". :rolleyes:

[Damien]

I don't hate it, in fact after regular use, I love it. Sure when I thought about no Start Menu (before I actually began to use it) I was like, this could be difficult, but now I know my way around the interface it's pretty slick. IMO, Microsoft could have made a Start Menu version for non-touch screen pcs/laptops and the regular version for touch enabled pcs/laptops but nonetheless, Windows 8 is not bad at all.

[HawkMan]

Limiting access to rendering APIs is nothing to do with security, in fact I've never even seen in recent times a security vulnerability carried out through exploiting those APIs, it's about hindering performance.

So it's not up to the developer of the OS what API's their release access to any more ? RT is not open software/hardware, it's limited to prevent vectors for both attacks and unsupported modifications. don't want to deal with it. well release yoru software on android and chrome OS... oh wait. Chrome OS doesn't support third party browsers either....

[Noir Angel]

If there's a legitimate reason for it, sure. The argument about security is complete crap, limiting 2D API access does not increase security. I can understand some decisions but I'm not going to praise a decision that's so obviously been made for anti competitive reasons.

Also, I'm pretty sure it's possible to install another variant of Linux on a Chromebook if you have the mind to do it.

[BajiRav]

Also, I'm pretty sure it's possible to install another variant of Linux on a Chromebook if you have the mind to do it.

Same with any Windows 8 or RT device.

[Noir Angel]

Doesn't matter, my point was that the browser lockout in the RT API is being done for anti competitive reasons, and has nothing to do with improving security.

[BajiRav]

Doesn't matter, my point was that the browser lockout in the RT API is being done for anti competitive reasons, and has nothing to do with improving security.

Security and performance, the later of which is apparently out of Google/Mozilla's grasp when it comes to hw acceleration, memory/cpu usage and battery life.

[JonnyLH]

Doesn't matter, my point was that the browser lockout in the RT API is being done for anti competitive reasons, and has nothing to do with improving security.

So your saying, the IE codebase should have an API and other browsers should be able to use it within metro?

Is that what you're seriously saying?

People should stop throwing around words like they know what they mean. IE does not have any form of rendering API, its IE. If other browsers used the "rendering API" then it'd essentially be IE with a different skin. Like all the other apps which include web frames....

So that anti-competitive claim is totally bogus.

Just a note also, the security features inside Windows 8 Modern UI apps is the sandbox style of them. They have limited access to the Win32 API's, big difference.

[TheFightSayeth]

Every time I see a forum like this, I always search around for specific things that people feel like they can't do in Windows 8 that there were able to do in 2000, XP, Vista or 7 and never find anything worth while. I've seen people essentially gripe about the placement of menus but nothing on a completely functional level that you can't pick up. I don't mean some random what-if scenario in Metro from people who have professed to hating Metro already either. I'm talking about absolutely no work around and no way to complete the action or task.

The ironic thing here is that, I was in this same position before with family members that I convinced to try (and then keep) OS X. The biggest hang up being that the X in the upper right hand corner doesn't universally close apps throughout the OS. It's a functional difference to close via keyboard short cut or on-screen menu, sure, but they learned. I just think it's way too easy to complain about something MS-related then to take that energy and find out how to do things they way that you like. Especially from people on sites like these where we are more technologically inclined. We've downloaded plug-ins for browswers and installed different launchers for our phones but won't do anything of the sort here.

[Noir Angel]

Security and performance, the later of which is apparently out of Google/Mozilla's grasp when it comes to hw acceleration, memory/cpu usage and battery life.

Strange because hardware acceleration has always been fine for me in Chrome

So your saying, the IE codebase should have an API and other browsers should be able to use it within metro?

Is that what you're seriously saying?

People should stop throwing around words like they know what they mean. IE does not have any form of rendering API, its IE. If other browsers used the "rendering API" then it'd essentially be IE with a different skin. Like all the other apps which include web frames....

So that anti-competitive claim is totally bogus.

Just a note also, the security features inside Windows 8 Modern UI apps is the sandbox style of them. They have limited access to the Win32 API's, big difference.

No, what I'm saying is that other browsers are being denied access to the 2D/3D rendering framework that modern web browsers need to provide proper hardware acceleration. I'm talking about the 2D and 3D rendering APIs in Direct X that are used to accelerate most browser rendering, perhaps you ought to improve your reading comprehension before attacking me?

[MorganX]

Limiting access to rendering APIs is nothing to do with security, in fact I've never even seen in recent times a security vulnerability carried out through exploiting those APIs, it's about hindering performance.

Of course it's an anti-competitive move. You think Microsoft wants a browser war on it's tablet platform? One it may not win? But, and this is all that matters, Microsoft does not dominate the tablet market, nor does it have a monopoly, so it is not anti-competitive. That's just how it is.

On another note, what do you think about Surface RT being landscape oriented from a consumer point of view? It does not rotate well or universally. I mean, it does but not as elegantly as iOS or Android. Just curious what your thoughts on that are if you have used one.

[PGHammer]

First, the web browser, was the example used, the conversation was about monopolies and monopolistic practices in general as well as corporate structure as it relates to Jobs.

Monopolies and their negative effects on society, even capitalist society is forever memorialized in real life history which is why these laws evolved, regardless off your personal feelings or politics.

MorganX, do you remember the expression "The winners write the histories after the battles are over."? A monopoly is defined (legally) as a company that has such an advantage in marketshare that it is not merely difficult, but approaching nigh impossible to compete with it; name a SINGLE market that Microsoft has ever had such a position in, at any time in their existence. If you are referring to the EU decisions, Microsoft was at a disadvantage in EU courts from the get-go, being based outside the EU; further it was at least one company based within the EU (Opera Software) doing the complaining. As far as the United States went, the prevailing winds within the LEGAL community at the time were that large (by definition) equals bad and Microsoft (at the time) was not exactly small. Further, you had Apple (which was actually far more dominant in their lines of business than Microsoft) successfully playing to the Court of Public Opinion that it was a little and helpless company (the "David" card - look small and cute). Was there any way that Microsoft could win the argument?

In short, MorganX, I'm saying that the deck was stacked.

The other issue I take with your theory is why is it ONLY held to apply to corporate misconduct, as opposed to other, far more damaging, PERSONAL misconduct, such as murder or even voluntary manslaughter? What ever happened to the idea of "one rule for all"? (That is supposed to be the idea behind civil-rights law - my issue is that, all too often, it is NOT the case, not even in the United States, let alone anywhere else; instead, it becomes a system to grant more rights to "favored classes" as opposed to fairness in law OR in fact.)