Just how many people hate Windows 8?

[Dot Matrix]

That's all we've been saying from the start. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And let me be crystal clear about this...... Windows 7 was NOT broke...

Also, if regards to your statement "If it's not broke...", I just want to say, don't confuse functionality with efficiency.

The static icons technically aren't "broke", but when compared to a dynamically updated live tile, aren't the most efficient.

The Start Menu technically might not be "broke" (debatable), but when compared to the Start Screen that makes better use out of monitor real estate, has greater customization options, and has greater readability, it isn't the most efficient.

The mouse pointer technically isn't "broke", but when compared to other methods of interaction, especially in advanced usage scenarios, isn't the most efficient.

-You can't really draw with it.

-Limiting, only has one "hotspot", compared to our hand's 10.

-Static, doesn't allow for a greater degree of interactivity. Can only be in one spot at any given time.

-Bigger monitors, higher resolutions, and multiple monitor setups mean more travel time, can get lost easily, etc.

The 'File' menu technically isn't broke either, but the Ribbon has shown that it was far from efficient, and has (thankfully) fallen by the wayside.

[Mr.mister]

i like windows 8 :) also my whole family uses windows 8 and they love it :) and we dont use touchscreens

[xWhiplash]

My feelings is that Apple will flatten iOS, but it will be more of the same. They're really starting to fall behind with their fear of change.

WHAT? Apple is who brought the tablet market booming. Steve Jobs was criticized for his discussions that we are now in a "Post-PC era". How are they afraid of change?

[Xilo]

I would like to know in what way it stopped you from being productive.

Lack of a start menu

Hot corners and charm bars that aren't intuitive and accidentally hit

[PGHammer]

BS. If that is the case, then why shouldn't MS just close down the Windows/Office/Desktop and focus on being more like IBM? Cause I can't think of a single consumer that can exist solely with a slate that will ever be woo'd by MS.

I mean, isn't that what the prattle really is? That the real 'change' is that simple users don't need MS\Desktop applications to get by anymore and hence the hardware/OS that came with it?

That is basically what the anti-8 prattle is - stay focused on the desktop, as you have no reason to enter the tablet/slate/pad space.

And has anyone even considered that (unlike IBM) Microsoft is not willing to surrender?

However, the anti-8 prattle has things bass-ackwards - they don't need portables and laptops (and their price tags, not to mention Windows full-blown), because tablets/slates/pads can do most of what they need to do on a daily basis - taking some of the load OFF that big desktop, incidentally (which is exactly what first laptops, and then notebooks, were created to do). The capabilities of tablets/slates/pads are increasing - and that is utterly OS-independent; the capability gap vs. netbooks has been erased in its entirety, and notebooks and desktop replacements are in their gunsights. Tablets, slates, and pads don't have to catch completely up to the big desktop - the gap between the capabilities of the big desktop and what it's actually used FOR is shockingly HIGH. (I've called myself - more than once - an outlier; that is because I use more of the capabilities of my Vista-era hardware - as low-end compared to today as it is - than most. Never mind that it is two operating systems from Microsoft - Windows 8 Pro and Windows Server 2012, in dual-boot, let me leverage the Intel CPU known as Kentsfield - Q6600 - to such an astounding degree. Yes - Nehalem, which is slightly newer than Kentsfield, and Sandy Bridge, let alone Ivy Bridge, bring even more to the table; I heartily agree. However, how many users that have CPUs in any of those three processor families use even the capabilities shared with Kentsfield? In other words, capability available vs. capability used - the capability USAGE gap - has grown for desktops, and portable hardware based on desktop hardware - massive UNDERutilization, in other words. And that is just since Kentsfield went EOL.)

And outside of niche users, with niche usages, what is pushing developers to use those increased capabilities? Exactly nothing. If anything, any interest shown by developers to use increased capabilities in more modern hardware is, in fact, reined in by users. Why? To preserve older hardware. The bar is, therefore, far lower for tablets, slates, and pads than is thought - not the full set of capabilities, just what the hardware is actually used for.

Therefore, Windows full-blown is under siege. Not because of necessarily any failure in Windows per se, but because we have let the capability used lag behind the capability available, leaving Windows vulnerable to lower-cost devices that don't, or even can't, run Windows. The ecosystem itself is under siege. Microsoft sees that - and has no desire to be rendered moot - unlike IBM, which could have cared less.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Today I was setting up a windows 8 machine for someone and i created some instructions on notepad how to create a system image on WIndows 8 once they got the machine all setup how they like it. On every version previous to windows 8 they would just read the instructions on one side of the screen and then do them on the other. On windows 8 she had to keep going back and forth because as soon as she hit the windows key the instructions got covered it. It was quite annoying.

[MorganX]

Today I was setting up a windows 8 machine for someone and i created some instructions on notepad how to create a system image on WIndows 8 once they got the machine all setup how they like it. On every version previous to windows 8 they would just read the instructions on one side of the screen and then do them on the other. On windows 8 she had to keep going back and forth because as soon as she hit the windows key the instructions got covered it. It was quite annoying.

No. No points. Anyone creating a system image should be able to regardless of Modern UI. Download Macrium free and schedule it for her and call it a day. If you have to go to these lengths (you don't have to) to show the Modern UI isn't exactly intuitive, your arguments against it will lose credibility.

/opinion

[Noir Angel]

The argument isn't and never was that they shouldn't move into the tablet market, it's that they shouldn't bastardise and slap a s**tty tablet UI on a desktop product.

[MorganX]

The argument isn't and never was that they shouldn't move into the tablet market, it's that they shouldn't bastardise and slap a s**tty tablet UI on a desktop product.

Right. Particularly without adding value for the inconvenience. You either provide apps to make it worth it, or you take user feedback and make the Modern UI more usable and less intrusive. They appear to be going for the later in the near term. Near being first 6-18 months after RTM.

[Dashel]

The ecosystem itself is under siege. Microsoft sees that - and has no desire to be rendered moot - unlike IBM, which could have cared less.

Yet for all of those words, that still doesn't address my question.

[Joswin]

I disagree with people comparing 8 to Vista. I liked Vista.... :shifty:

I'm using 8 for no reason other than I built a new system & the discount was on at the time. It basically cost me ?25 for Pro. Windows 7 would have cost me much more (yeah ironic). In general I find Metro an annoyance and generally ignore it as much as possible. I pinned my apps to the taskbar, made desktop icons even (feels very 1999) to avoid having to use the Start Screen. Urrrm. But yeah the removal of features from the desktop is annoying (aero peak, why did they mess with that?) but some additions are good (like the new task manager). Idk.... Windows 8 was the first version of Windows (and I have been through them all since 3.11) that I have ever used that made me want to puke at the changes. Instead of being excited for and seeing the positive in.... :/

[JayPhi]

Lack of a start menu

Hot corners and charm bars that aren't intuitive and accidentally hit

Have your most used programs pinned to the taskbar or to the desktop, right-click the left lower corner to access control panel, system, run, cmd, etc., hit windows key and start typing the programs you're looking for, generally use hotkeys to be even more productive.

Not intuitive, but once you know how to get your way around on Windows 8, there's really nothing much to hold you back anymore. Accidentally hitting hot corners or Charms Bar may happens the first two three times, but then after that you shouldnt be accidentally activating them again, if you're not really going for them. And even if you accidentally activates them, they're as quickly gone as you move away from them.

[Dashel]

JayPi, little advice based on the history of new helpers such as yourself. Don't insult their intelligence by pretending that once they 'know' everything becomes magical in fairy land.

[MorganX]

Yet for all of those words, that still doesn't address my question.

+1 MS needs to keep it this simple. Make customers happy. Give them options, and we'll all be happy during this transition.

[PGHammer]

The argument isn't and never was that they shouldn't move into the tablet market, it's that they shouldn't bastardise and slap a s**tty tablet UI on a desktop product.

And why is it a *tablet UI* (your words, not mine)? Because it supports touch at all?

ModernUI doesn't support mice any less than touch - in fact, it supports mice in addition to touch. It is also extensible to support other forms of interaction (the Dragon Voice extension from Nuance - included with Dragon Naturally Speaking - plugs into it - it previously plugged into the standard extension for desktop applications, which it STILL does). Touch didn't replace the keyboard any more than voice interaction did - it's an option, not a requirement.

If touch support were not obvious, would users even know it was there? Touch support - albeit more rudimentary - was included with Windows 7 (not 8) - how much use did it get?

Touch support *hardware* for desktops (not portables) exists - today. It's ALSO more prevalent in even portables. Optional - not a requirement. If it doesn't fit the user, the user need not use it.

I run Windows 8 Pro and Server 2012 in dual-boot - both OSes support touch today. (That's right - a touch-supporting OS for servers that can painlessly be used as a workstation OS.) Do I have touch-capable hardware? No. Do I use ModernUI applications? Surprisingly, yes - and touch support has nothing to do with it. The ModernUI applications I use perform better for me than their Win32 competition - and that is with a keyboard and mouse, not touch.

If touch support were not as obvious as it is now, chances are most users would, in fact ignore it. (Your own argument, in fact, makes that point.)

Your issue is that touch support is so attention-calling (for you) that you forget your hardware doesn't support it. That's an opinion - not a fact. How is that the fault of Microsoft?

[MorganX]

the discount was on at the time.

That's a pretty good reason right there. :)

Not intuitive, but once you know how to get your way around on Windows 8, there's really nothing much to hold you back anymore. Accidentally hitting hot corners or Charms Bar may happens the first two three times, but then after that you shouldnt be accidentally activating them again, if you're not really going for them. And even if you accentally activates them, they're as quickly gone as you move away from them.

Thank you for that. Very honest and sensible. The upper left App bar remains a nuisance with full screen Desktop Apps, but it's not the end of the world.

[PGHammer]

Yet for all of those words, that still doesn't address my question.

I most certainly did - IBM could, in fact, have cared less about the average customer.

IBM was (at the time of their partnership with Microsoft, over three product groups - OS/2 and NT, LAN Manager/LAN Server, and DOS) focused heavily on enterprise customers - a legacy of their mainframe business. Individual consumers? SMBs? They deliberately - in fact, quite gleefully - steered those to Microsoft (NT, LAN Manager and even DOS+Windows). They kept right on doing so AFTER the Big Breakup, in fact. IBM considered the *average consumer* beneath them. (IBM still had not sold the PC business to Lenovo, so this was despite the PC business. They were still selling OS/2 - so this was also despite OS/2.)

Part of the results was that Microsoft gained a lot of traction in the sub-enterprise space - not just with DOS+Windows, but with NT and LAN Manager, which became, eventually, Windows NT Server, and finally Windows Server. As those businesses grew, and BECAME enterprises, they largely stayed with Microsoft products, for a reason that any old-school IBMer would recognize - loyalty. In other words, the very markets that IBM foreswore became the fuel for Microsoft's growth.

Do you really think Microsoft is clueless and does not realize that?

[JayPhi]

JayPi, little advice based on the history of new helpers such as yourself. Don't insult their intelligence by pretending that once they 'know' everything becomes magical in fairy land.

I don't think everything becomes magical once you "know", just easier. And no, certainly I don't want to insult anyones intelligence here. My apologies if I came across that way. But I don't think what I just described were work-arounds, rather easier ways of doing things, at least for me. Okay, now I see, it's only my opinion. Yeah, I should have stated that first.

[BannanaNinja]

I disagree with people comparing 8 to Vista. I liked Vista.... :shifty:

I'm using 8 for no reason other than I built a new system & the discount was on at the time. It basically cost me ?25 for Pro. Windows 7 would have cost me much more (yeah ironic). In general I find Metro an annoyance and generally ignore it as much as possible. I pinned my apps to the taskbar, made desktop icons even (feels very 1999) to avoid having to use the Start Screen. Urrrm. But yeah the removal of features from the desktop is annoying (aero peak, why did they mess with that?) but some additions are good (like the new task manager). Idk.... Windows 8 was the first version of Windows (and I have been through them all since 3.11) that I have ever used that made me want to puke at the changes. Instead of being excited for and seeing the positive in.... :/

Nothing changed with Aero peek...did you accidently turn it off on your system?

Also, I don't believe any features were removed from the Desktop.

[spoetnik]

..sticking to the topic, i would have to say a LOT.

i do NOT think this is the case of a vocal minority if it was i would say so..

i also do not think it is the nerd set this is complaining (again stated in first post)

my mom bought a laptop recently that came with windows 8 and she did not like it.

I think the reason she didn't like it was that it felt like un-needed changes.

I have been across the net and back since windows 8 RTM'd and there is NO place on earth i do not see people hating windows 8 !

So i'm getting tired of people trying to pull this oh its just a vocal minority crap.

And i bloody dare any of you to challenge me on that, i can go to dozens of totaly random web sites

and show clearly people are mad and hate it at every kind of site you can imagine not just nerdy windows tech sites.

You know what bothers me even more than any specific feature about windows 8 ?

It's the retarded amount of people that are on a crusade to discredit windows 8 critics.

If you don't like something about you are frequently rendered human garbage and that is NOT right !

I can deal with windows 8 and in time we'll kinda have to but what gets under my skin is the outright lying

and pathetic excuses as to why Windows 8 is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

The only thing that matters is we are honest about the issue.. that's it.

[freak180]

..sticking to the topic, i would have to say a LOT.

i do NOT think this is the case of a vocal minority if it was i would say so..

i also do not think it is the nerd set this is complaining (again stated in first post)

my mom bought a laptop recently that came with windows 8 and she did not like it.

I think the reason she didn't like it was that it felt like un-needed changes.

I have been across the net and back since windows 8 RTM'd and there is NO place on earth i do not see people hating windows 8 !

So i'm getting tired of people trying to pull this oh its just a vocal minority crap.

And i bloody dare any of you to challenge me on that, i can go to dozens of totaly random web sites

and show clearly people are mad and hate it at every kind of site you can imagine not just nerdy windows tech sites.

You know what bothers me even more than any specific feature about windows 8 ?

It's the retarded amount of people that are on a crusade to discredit windows 8 critics.

If you don't like something about you are frequently rendered human garbage and that is NOT right !

I can deal with windows 8 and in time we'll kinda have to but what gets under my skin is the outright lying

and pathetic excuses as to why Windows 8 is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

The only thing that matters is we are honest about the issue.. that's it.

dont let Dot Matrix read this post! :rofl: hurry edit it lol

[MorganX]

Nothing changed with Aero peek...did you accidently turn it off on your system?

Also, I don't believe any features were removed from the Desktop.

I'm pretty sure Peek defaults to disabled. And with good reason, it's ridiculous to use as you WILL activate the Charms bar lower-right hot corner. And it is as annoying as *#$*&$

Flip 3D was removed. This was very useful when assigned to a mouse button and using scroll wheel. Obviously, Start Menu and all you can do with it from the desktop.

Minor stuff, unless you used these things heavily.

[Growled Member]

It's the retarded amount of people that are on a crusade to discredit windows 8 critics.

If you don't like something about you are frequently rendered human garbage and that is NOT right !

You see this a lot now-a-days. If you can't beat them with facts, discredit them.

[BannanaNinja]

I'm pretty sure Peek defaults to disabled. And with good reason, it's ridiculous to use as you WILL activate the Charms bar lower-right hot corner. And it is as annoying as *#$*&$

Flip 3D was removed. This was very useful when assigned to a mouse button and using scroll wheel. Obviously, Start Menu and all you can do with it from the desktop.

Minor stuff, unless you used these things heavily.

I see. I was more thinking of the taskbar preview side of Aero Peek. The goto desktop feature still happens when you click but it doesn't preview by simply hovering. I can see how the charm activation would be annoying but as soon as you move your mouse away it disappears (it also doesn't fully activate unless you move your mouse up an inch or two anyway).

And I stand corrected, Flip3D is indeed a removed feature (it now cycles through Modern apps instead). I forgot about that since I normally alt-tab. And I'm considering the start menu as a separate feature than the desktop.

[MorganX]

>>I see. I was more thinking of the taskbar preview side of Aero Peek. The goto desktop feature still happens when you click but it doesn't preview by simply hovering.<<

That's actually what I use, and the hover preview does/should be working. That's what I use. Of course, it only shows one window at a time. But "I" usually just want to peek in a single windows to read something real quick.

>> I can see how the charm activation would be annoying but as soon as you move your mouse away it disappears<<

But it makes Desktop peek hard to target and activate. Your instinct is to move back and get rid of Charms, and you miss peek. I never really used or like desktop peek that much, but for those that found it useful, it's useless now :) Taskbar previews are really nice.

>>And I stand corrected, Flip3D is indeed a removed feature (it now cycles through Modern apps instead).<<

Supposedly MS has patented a Flip3D like UI that may reappear in future versions. Story is somewhere on Neowin. Supposed to be somewhat like Expose on Mac? But I find taskbar previews more efficient and practical than all of Expose though Expose is prettier.

You see this a lot now-a-days. If you can't beat them with facts, discredit them.

Some may be in MS evangelists groups. You never know, I don't think they stopped that. They're definitely not MVPs. I admit, waaay back in the day I was in ClubIE but it wasn't like this. Well, I guess there were a few over-the-top and out-of-control members.