Just how many people hate Windows 8?

[MorganX]

The reasons are numerous. The economy generally doesn't stop sales for very long if people want something. For the most part, Windows 7 satisfied users needs, and technology has reached a point where upgrades are "necessary."

*unnecessary - Meaning people will buy and replace if they perceive value, newness (a cool factor) and increased capability. Or even if they perceive it will run new applications and games better than what they have. That has not happened. The big knock on Windows 8 lackluster sales, is a major new Windows OS usually invigorates the market regardless of all other things. Windows 8 failed to generate tangible excitement or buzz because it was all fluff, not backed up by applications with regards to desktop sales.

[+Warwagon MVC]

the reason why I have to turn them back is pretty exclusive to Norway, our biggest electronic ID(BankID, as well the the enxt biggest, BuyPass) use java.

They should redesign that IMMEDIATELY!! That is doing nothing but exposing their customers to zero day vulnerabilities and malware infections.

[Gullible Jones]

Who hates Windows 8? Not sure. I personally don't "hate" it, but I have tried the RTM trial version and found it unsatisfactory. The Start screen is okay but most Metro apps' oversized, unconfigurable interfaces are annoying, as is their lack of window management. Also the idea of WinRT apps being forcibly linked to the Windows Store gives me the willies. That will solve a lot of malware problems, but I don't like the idea of MS controlling what apps are available and siphoning off income from third-party developers; and the idea of the Windows Store strikes me as running counter to Windows' history as a workhorse OS.

(OTOH, the Windows Store effectively acts as package management. Be careful what you wish for!)

What is doubly annoying about all of this is that, under the hood, Windows 8 is an improvement on Windows 7. Memory protection stuff is better, and WinRT applications actually have decent sandboxing. In some ways it's probably the most advanced desktop OS available. Shame that it isn't more user-friendly (from my standpoint anyway).

[TruckWEB]

Windows 8.1 (Blue) could be the missing tie between tablet and WP8. And if they do it correctly, it could endup being acceptable on desktop too.

Who really think that Apple will come out with something revolutionary with iOS 7 ?? My feeling, it's going to be more of the same. If that happens, MS could have a chance, as some people are bound to get tired by iOS.

And I think that MS is doing a much better job with WP8 than Google is with Android and letting all the OEM slap cheap skin over the OS (Touchwiz, Sense, ...) and taking months to get some update, if you're lucky enough.

[PGHammer]

1) Pretty much (Edit: It's 6 months later now and there still aren't mANY meaningful Modern UI apps for the desktop).

2) It's not up to me to give it time, it's up to the market to give it time. Windows 8 wasn't released in a vacuum. Microsoft new the situation and they blew it out of the gate. Now, coming from behind, they're playing double catch-up. That's not my fault, or the market's fault. That's Microsoft's fault.

>>The desktop computer being in trouble started for economic reasons<<

The reasons are numerous. The economy generally doesn't stop sales for very long if people want something. For the most part, Windows 7 satisfied users needs, and technology has reached a point where upgrades are "necessary."

Only games push today's hardware. Blame it on lazy developers. Blame it on web apps. Blame it on ugly PC design. If Windows 8 and the Modern UI actually provided a reason to upgrade, that would be reflected in sales. All markets flatten, as the mobile market eventually will, and the shift in growth will go to software and/or peripherals.

>>What makes me even angrier is that you are, in fact, PART of the trend away from buyng desktop PC after desktop PC - what do you do on your SurfaceRT and smartphone that you used to do ONLY on your PC?<<

I don't do anything on my Surface RT at the moment. It sucks, too slow, and software is lacking. It's collecting dust. If I have to I just take my laptop to work when I'm mobile. Something I never did with my desktop. The same goes for smartphones, email and texting. While email I still do on my desktop, especially if I have to write long emails. There is a physical aspect. Typing on a diminutive smartphone is for emergency on the move communication only. Office on those devices is only for viewing, though PowerPoint can be fully utilized.

So, there is nothing that I do only Surface RT or smartphone that I used to ONLY do on my PC. When I'm using my Lumia or 8X I can't even easily get music on them.

For the first time I purchased a custom PC for Windows 8. 8 is a letdown, but the PC is not. We continue to refresh PCs and in fact, just got budget increase for continued refresh. All the while, deploying iPads, Androids, and Surfaces. Due to MS' continued failures in the mobile space, our BYOD policy is now heterogeneous.

Microsoft has had plenty of time, time is simply running out in markets where they have competition. The only market they are solid in is where they really have no competition, Servers and Desktop OS.

Basically, you just blamed the developer community - not Microsoft - for Windows 8's failure to launch.

Microsoft is not the only developer possible for Windows 8 apps, or even ModernUI apps.

Worse, governments all over the planet (not just the EU or even the US Department of Justice) would stomp all over Microsoft if they were seen as *crowding out* other ModernUI developers - have you even THOUGHT that the recent actions of the EU and US governments are indeed having a stalling effect on Microsoft's presence in new (to the company) markets? (It certainly had an effect on IE development, whether anyone wants to admit it or not.)

And Microsoft DOES have competition in both the server AND desktop OS markets - or what are Linux and UNIX? How is it Microsoft's fault that all the would-be competition - and yes, I am including UNIX in this - manages to continually shoot themselves in the foot? (UNIX in general - and Solaris in particular - has had plenty of opportunity to take on Microsoft head-on in not just the server space, but even the DESKTOP space - first when it was owned by Sun Microsystems, and now under Larry Ellison at Oracle. He's not exactly a fan of Microsoft, so why has he not taken on Team Redmond? He has tools, talent AND opportunity; why has he squandered all of them?)

Microsoft can only do what governments and users ALLOW it to do.

[MorganX]

Basically, you just blamed the developer community - not Microsoft - for Windows 8's failure to launch.

And Microsoft DOES have competition in both the server AND desktop OS markets - or what are Linux and UNIX?

1) Yes. It is Microsoft's responsibility not to RTM before the OS is ready and before the ecosystem is ready. If an OS is released as unfinished as Windows 8 RTM and Modern UI was, yes it's Microsoft's fault. If it was released before the development community is ready to produce quality apps in a reasonable amount of time, or if they have no desire to produce such apps, MS should not RTM the OS without subsidizing or without providing options to hide/avoid the Modern UI which is useless and annoying on the desktop in those cases.

2) I'm really not interested in anecdotes. In niche markets I suppose UNIX and Linux are competitive with Windows servers, but by-and-large they are not. Just as Linux, which is on many desktops, and is on many thin clients which ultimately run a Windows VD, is not a competitive threat to Microsoft on the desktop. That's the reality. I've personally spent the last 3 years eliminating all traces of Unix/AIX/Mainframe in our environment Gone. Millions written off, millions saved. Same goes for Oracle and Citrix. And VMWare is next.

Microsoft has no meaningful competition from Linux or UNIX. That does not mean that they don't exist here and there, but they are absolutely no threat to Microsoft in enterprise computing, server, desktop, nor server applications.

>> Larry Ellison at Oracle. He's not exactly a fan of Microsoft, so why has he not taken on Team Redmond? He has tools, talent AND opportunity<<

Because they do not have a product that competes with Microsoft't products that we are discussing. They have no desktop or server product to compete. As I said, UNIX and Linux are no competition. And Larry Ellison's talent in the modern IT industry is questionable. He's a billionaire from past big iron and big contract investments that die hard. You're reaching way into the now irrelevant past for straws. Microsoft destroyed all of these would be competitors long ago.

Microsoft is screwing up because they're screwing themselves. They had Mobile phones and pen devices early on, they just screwed them up and kept screwing them up and Apple got it right, first. Then Android got it right second. Microsoft is waaaay late trying to finally get it right and may be out of time because they're still screwing up (thanks in no small Part to Sinofsky being allowed to run amok). It really is that simple.

[PGHammer]

1) Yes. It is Microsoft's responsibility not to RTM before the OS is ready and before the ecosystem is ready. If an OS is released as unfinished as Windows 8 RTM and Modern UI was, yes it's Microsoft's fault. If it was released before the development community is ready to produce quality apps in a reasonable amount of time, or if they have no desire to produce such apps, MS should not RTM the OS without subsidizing or without providing options to hide/avoid the Modern UI which is useless and annoying on the desktop in those cases.

2) I'm really not interested in anecdotes. In niche markets I suppose UNIX and Linux are competitive with Windows servers, but by-and-large they are not. Just as Linux, which is on many desktops, and is on many thin clients which ultimately run a Windows VD, is not a competitive threat to Microsoft on the desktop. That's the reality. I've personally spent the last 3 years eliminating all traces of Unix/AIX/Mainframe in our environment Gone. Millions written off, millions saved. Same goes for Oracle and Citrix. And VMWare is next.

Microsoft has no meaningful competition from Linux or UNIX. That does not mean that they don't exist here and there, but they are absolutely no threat to Microsoft in enterprise computing, server, desktop, nor server applications.

>> Larry Ellison at Oracle. He's not exactly a fan of Microsoft, so why has he not taken on Team Redmond? He has tools, talent AND opportunity<<

Because they do not have a product that competes with Microsoft't products that we are discussing. They have no desktop or server product to compete. As I said, UNIX and Linux are no competition. And Larry Ellison's talent in the modern IT industry is questionable. He's a billionaire from past big iron and big contract investments that die hard. You're reaching way into the now irrelevant past for straws. Microsoft destroyed all of these would be competitors long ago.

Microsoft is screwing up because they're screwing themselves. They had Mobile phones and pen devices early on, they just screwed them up and kept screwing them up and Apple got it right, first. Then Android got it right second. Microsoft is waaaay late trying to finally get it right and may be out of time because they're still screwing up (thanks in no small Part to Sinofsky being allowed to run amok). It really is that simple.

Therefore, you basically bet early on Apple and Google, and want Microsoft to stay out of what you see as Apple's and Google's turf. Had Microsoft waited, they would have even more of a lock on that turf then they do now. For now, Apple and Google are vulnerable; however, Microsoft waiting could very well have become too little AND too late. If Microsoft is going to counterattack, they have to do so now. Yes - they do indeed need help from developers; however, Microsoft cannot - both from a legal (antitrust) standpoint and from a resources standpoint, carry ALL the water themselves - it's still largely up to developers, and up to users.

On the user side, there has been a massive case of I-don't-want-to-move - they are quite willing to stay put. Windows Phone 8 has, in fact, started to gain ground - just not as fast as some would want. On the one hand, advancement is not as fast as some would like - on the USER standpoint, folks are apparently quite happy to play one against another, all the while wanting prices to stay low (especially for Android devices, which still have a price advantage, not necessarily a performance advantage, over Windows Phone and WindowsRT). Windows 7 is becoming the new XP - not because of any failure in terms of Windows 8, but because users have little to no real reason to look at Windows 8 in terms of what they do with their PCs. Lastly, unless folks buy touch-screen hardware, why should they? As I pointed out, Windows 8's hardware requirements otherwise are identical to that of Windows 7 - and you don't even NEED touch-capable hardware to use Windows 8. Buying new hardware - even for Windows 8 - is not necessary. New hardware uptake is thus flat. Other than ModernUI - which is quite usable by those that have older hardware - the one other feature that is new with Windows 8 - vastly improved virtualization - is for outliers, not the average user. (How many folks actually used Windows VirtualPC in Windows 7? Hyper-V basically replaced it, and is the one new feature that does require newer hardware. There aren't THAT many outliers.)

[MorganX]

Therefore, you basically bet early on Apple and Google, and want Microsoft to stay out of what you see as Apple's and Google's turf.

I'm not sure where you're getting this, and at this point where you're coming from. I want Microsoft to fix their ****. Release better, more complete products that satisfy consumers.

Their main problem right now, is that Microsoft is first and foremost a software company and their software isn't great or is non-existent where it needs to exist. Whether it's them or developers. That's what I want.

You're grossly overanalyzing as Microsoft has been. They've taken a step back from their intellectual bloviating and made some good decisions to start down the road of fixing things in Blue, including the Start Button. Hopefully they continue to keep it simple. Make customers happy. It's really is as simple as that. With regards to their consumer products and services they need to stop being driven by shareholders and start being driven buy consumer satisfaction, and they may have to spend money and take a loss for a while to do that. Take all the money being spent on Windows 8 and Surface Marketing campaigns and put it into app development, subsidization, etc. until this thing is ready for a second release.

[MumbleUK]

I use Windows 8 as my only OS, never had a problem using or understanding it, it has never made any task slower for me and I don't miss the Start menu at all nor do I use a touch screen which also brings me to the people bleating "I don't want a touch screen or I don't want to sit 2 feet from my monitor" Windows 8 was not the stand alone innovation, peripherals have moved on with it I for one could never stand to use those stupid little touch pads for a mouse but instantly got used to using my ipad with ease so I will be definitely getting one of these for my PC http://www.logitech.com/en-gb/product/touchpad-t650 so Windows 8 isn't for touch screens only is it? I am not a Microsoft fan boy by any means but I like the fact that they have now given me not only a faster and stable OS but have also given me the added userbility of my mobile phone when I need it

my two cents!

[MorganX]

Windows 8 isn't for touch screens only is it?

It sure isn't and in many ways it's faster with a scroll mouse. Having said that, how cool would it be if you could connect wirelessly to it over your home network and use a Surface as a touch input device and as home to your desktop Start Screen and swipe bars while connected? The Start Screen and swipe bars could live on or be mirrored on the Surface which would comfortably at arms length.

[MumbleUK]

It sure isn't and in many ways it's faster with a scroll mouse. Having said that, how cool would it be if you could connect wirelessly to it over your home network and use a Surface as a touch input device and as home to your desktop Start Screen and swipe bars while connected? The Start Screen and swipe bars could live on or be mirrored on the Surface which would comfortably at arms length.

Yes that would be very cool and I am sure someone somewhere is working on an app, I have such an app for my ipad (its just mouse and keyboard) and it works really well but sadly I am a gadget freak and something like the Logitech will just call to me in my sleep till I buy it lol

[Dot Matrix]

Windows 8.1 (Blue) could be the missing tie between tablet and WP8. And if they do it correctly, it could endup being acceptable on desktop too.

Who really think that Apple will come out with something revolutionary with iOS 7 ?? My feeling, it's going to be more of the same. If that happens, MS could have a chance, as some people are bound to get tired by iOS.

And I think that MS is doing a much better job with WP8 than Google is with Android and letting all the OEM slap cheap skin over the OS (Touchwiz, Sense, ...) and taking months to get some update, if you're lucky enough.

My feelings is that Apple will flatten iOS, but it will be more of the same. They're really starting to fall behind with their fear of change.

[Growled Member]

Who really think that Apple will come out with something revolutionary with iOS 7 ?? My feeling, it's going to be more of the same.

I'm not sure anything new and revolutionary will be coming from anyone anytime soon. I expect more of the same from everyone.

[MorganX]

I'm not sure anything new and revolutionary will be coming from anyone anytime soon. I expect more of the same from everyone.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. A few interface enhancements, usability enhancements, performance optimizations, support for new technologies (iPhone and iPad still need BT 4.0 apt-x codec support). That's all that's needed. But not too much. The new iTunes UI is more Metro-like and IMO not nearly as efficient. Instead of being able to get to everything from the one well organized screen and set of menus you're constantly having to switch back and forth between single task screens. Not good.

[bradsday]

Enough Already - The Damned Thing is DEAD.

[HawkMan]

Year over year sales of -14% do not mean desktops are non-existent. It does not even men the base has shrunk one iota. That is the flaw in this whole line of thinking.

Desktop/stationary computers stopped selling many years ago, 3-4 years ago at least. so stats over the last couple of years don't mean much, the drop in desktops transferred to laptops though. and today, laptops are transferring to pads. it's natural. There's nothing your average person needs a full laptop for. surfing, banking, mail, messages and simple games, all done as good or better on a pad device.

[PGHammer]

Desktop/stationary computers stopped selling many years ago, 3-4 years ago at least. so stats over the last couple of years don't mean much, the drop in desktops transferred to laptops though. and today, laptops are transferring to pads. it's natural. There's nothing your average person needs a full laptop for. surfing, banking, mail, messages and simple games, all done as good or better on a pad device.

That is precisely what I was referring to by saying that Windows - in fact, the desktop PC itself - was under siege, HawkMan.

What a user wants to do on a PC hasn't changed much, if at all. What HAS changed are the capabilities of smartphones and tablets/slates/pads - all the above have gained capability, and all cost less than even most portable PCs, let alone desktops. The desktop PC *itself* has to change, and Windows - as has been pointed out, which is on eighty-five-percent-plus of those desktops - must change with it, or risk being rendered irrelevant as those that came up with the growth in tablets/slates/pads run into that capabilities ceiling while its there.

PCs made the mainframe into a niche - what is to say that the onslaught of pads, phones, etc., won't do the same to PCs? Betting against it is the height of hubris - and would be an error larger than that of IBM underestimating the PC. Intel certainly believes it - so does AMD, which has, in fact, signed on as an ARM licensee.

Windows is under siege because its ecosystem is under siege - nothing more, but also nothing less.

[Rickkins]

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

That's all we've been saying from the start. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And let me be crystal clear about this...... Windows 7 was NOT broke...

[MorganX]

Enough Already - The Damned Thing is DEAD.

This time, I agree. MS is moving forward, fixing many of the design flaws and/or omissions in Windows 8 Modern UI. So, until then ...

[BajiRav]

My feelings is that Apple will flatten iOS, but it will be more of the same. They're really starting to fall behind with their fear of change.

I think so too. I am betting they will get rid of all ugly textures in various apps (already happening with the podcast app update)

That's all we've been saying from the start. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And let me be crystal clear about this...... Windows 7 was NOT broke...

Yes, Windows 7 is not "broke"

1. Multi-monitor support is awesome

2. Can natively mount ISOs/VHds etc.

3. Can natively run VMs

4. Can pause-resume file operations

5. Can sync settings across PCs

6. Includes refrest+reset

7. Has built-in AV

8. Natively supports USB 3.0

9. Uses SecureBoot

10. Native support for cellular networks

...oh wait.

[Dot Matrix]

That's all we've been saying from the start. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And let me be crystal clear about this...... Windows 7 was NOT broke...

The design paradigm has outlived it's usefulness. In a world of always on, always connected devices, something new is needed. The legacy desktop/Start Menu design just doesn't have much going for it in this day and age. It's reached a plateau, and now we're moving on from it. So, yes, in a way it is "broke". It just doesn't allow for much expansion without drastic changes, which is what we are seeing with Windows 8.

[Xilo]

Windows 8 stopped me from being productive.

[Dashel]

There's nothing your average person needs a full laptop for. surfing, banking, mail, messages and simple games, all done as good or better on a pad device.

BS. If that is the case, then why shouldn't MS just close down the Windows/Office/Desktop and focus on being more like IBM? Cause I can't think of a single consumer that can exist solely with a slate that will ever be woo'd by MS.

I mean, isn't that what the prattle really is? That the real 'change' is that simple users don't need MS\Desktop applications to get by anymore and hence the hardware/OS that came with it?

[JayPhi]

Windows 8 stopped me from being productive.

I would like to know in what way it stopped you from being productive.

[MorganX]

BS. If that is the case, then why shouldn't MS just close down the Windows/Office/Desktop and focus on being more like IBM? Cause I can't think of a single consumer that can exist solely with a slate that will ever be woo'd by MS.

I mean, isn't that what the prattle really is? That the real 'change' is that simple users don't need MS\Desktop applications to get by anymore and hence the hardware/OS that came with it?

I think topics got blended. I think they're dead wrong on desktops, but he specifically mentioned laptops and normal people which I assume would be consumers types. And I agree.

Most of these types don't need a PC, and probably wouldn't buy one regardless. But they will buy a much cheaper tablet. Tablets will and are killing laptop sales to these types of people.

If someone wanted to assert that tablets and phones are eating in to laptop sales that seems plausible. I know the Surface Pro will/has, but not because it's a tablet, because it's a full blown pc in a tablet form factor.